Adam=michael The Archangel?

[Dr T]

Des,

They were "pure" yet they fought against God? How is that pure?

Thank you Outshined for the links.

Dr. T

(Edit was for wrong name)

[Princess3dward]

Okay.. so not all are very nice.

I was actually talking about the good angels.

The bad ones don't have bodies, and therefore aren't like us at all.

(You are talking about the arguement in the pre-existance? If not, than that needs to be clerified for me. I get confused easy if you didn't see the "I got fired" thread. LOL)

[Dr T]

Not trying to confuse you Des. Are you are saying that "good ones had bodies" and the "bad ones didn't"? How did they battle?

Dr. T

[Princess3dward]

hmm? I am confused Dr.T....

I don't even know what you are asking anymore....

Is there another angle you can take this from?

If not, can you help me understand what you are talking about?

[Dr T]

I was asking if you saw angels are like humans or different. You said they were "pure." I asked if you thought those that rebelled against God were "pure." You said some were and others were not. I thought you also said that the good ones had a body but the bad one's didn't. If that it true, how did they battle?

Dr. T

[Princess3dward]

Okay.. Battle when?

In the pre-existance?

.....

I am almost afraid to ask..

but are we talking about the same thing?

[Guest MrsS]

Dr T - you do know how to put the twist on words don't you? Are you also a Lawyer? You sound and ask questions like one.

What Dez is talking about is that they were in the actual presence of God, thus they must have been pure. As we must be pure before we can be in the presence of God. Pure of sin.

Let's put this in a more earthly frame.

Let's say it is your family that is having this council. Your Father has asked: Which of all my children will do this for me? You say: I will, and let the glory be all mine. Your Eldest Brother says: Father, send me and ALL glory be thine. Your Father selects your Eldest Brother, who is Jesus by the way, and this makes you so angry and jealous that you go against your Father and you draw 1/3 of your siblings with you.

Then 1/3 of your siblings join your side and you all get rather nasty. You throw a verbal temper tantrum, you push those of your siblings who sided with your Father and Eldest Brother around, punch quite a few. You probably even lash out with thunder bolts and lightning. You are not a nice child of God. You are prideful, jealous, and just plain miserable.

2/3 of your siblings, headed by Michael (later when he came to Earth he was named Adam) - tossed you and your 1/3 siblings of heaven in obedience to Father.

Note that ALL used their agency to choose which side they would follow? Thus agency is eternal.

I was asking if you saw angels are like humans or different. You said they were "pure." I asked if you thought those that rebelled against God were "pure." You said some were and others were not. I thought you also said that the good ones had a body but the bad one's didn't. If that it true, how did they battle? Dr. T

Those "angels" that were in the pre-existance did not have bodies like we do. They have bodies that look like ours but without bones, tangible flesh. If one were to appear before you, s/he would look just like a human, but if you went to shake hands with her/him, you would not feel her/him. How did they battle? I don't know how they did, I have never heard a lesson on that. What difference does it make? Whether it was a battle of words, looks, physical blows? Satan and 1/3 of his siblings turned against Father and 2/3 of the siblings.

[Dr T]

Hello MrsS.,

I can assure you that I am not a lawyer. I'm sorry if it looked like twisted words. That was not my intention. I was just trying to conceptualize what Des was saying. The issue of being "pure" still is not sitting right with me. If they were without sin (as you put it) where did the anger/jealousy/etc. come from? What made Satan angry with Jesus? If you are using the free will argument, didn't they have that all along? Wouldn't you speculate that they had some potential for sin before this counsel? If so, wouldn't it follow that they had at least "a little" (baby/fetal) sin? In that sense, how could they be "pure" from sin? My question about "how did they battle?" was directed specifically about "some had bodies and some did not." I just didn't seem consistent with what I am being taught here. That's all. I am not trying to stir Des away. (I felt a little bit of motherlyness in your "defense" of her).

Dr. T

[Princess3dward]

Hello MrsS.,

I can assure you that I am not a lawyer. I'm sorry if it looked like twisted words. That was not my intention. I was just trying to conceptualize what Des was saying. The issue of being "pure" still is not sitting right with me. If they were without sin (as you put it) where did the anger/jealousy/etc. come from? What made Satan angry with Jesus? If you are using the free will argument, didn't they have that all along? Wouldn't you speculate that they had some potential for sin before this counsel? If so, wouldn't it follow that they had at least "a little" (baby/fetal) sin? In that sense, how could they be "pure" from sin? My question about "how did they battle?" was directed specifically about "some had bodies and some did not." I just didn't seem consistent with what I am being taught here. That's all. I am not trying to stir Des away. (I felt a little bit of motherlyness in your "defense" of her).

Dr. T

They were only without sin because they couldn't sin... until they were given a choice.

[JoshuaFKon]

What Joshua, are you interpreting that verse from D&C that says Adam is the father of all to mean that LDS doctrine is that Adam is our Heavenly Father?

No, I'm interpreting this verse to say that "Adam=Michael"

am I mistaken? please show me...

Josh B)

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Brother Dorsey, I do not find any scriptural evidence to suggest that Adam was a resurrected being before this earth came into existence and before his death on this earth. I've no idea why anyone would give you that idea. Adam was a spirit child of God as we are, one of the most righteous and noble in the pre-mortal life. He led the way for us into mortality and should be honored for his great work. But I can't find any reasonable evidence supporting the (to me) strange claim that he was a resurrected being from another world who failed to gain exaltation before coming to this world as Adam.

[Dr T]

Des,

The angels didn't have a choice before they rebelled? You are losing me.

[BenRaines]

AK, I agree with you. I have never heard that statement before or read anything to that effect.

Ben Raines

[Outshined]

AK, I agree with you. I have never heard that statement before or read anything to that effect.

Ben Raines

Same here.

[Princess3dward]

Des,

The angels didn't have a choice before they rebelled? You are losing me.

WHOOOH!

Yes they did?

What are you talking about?

[Dr T]

Des,

Some might think that I am twisting your words. I am not. Here are some things you said in our short conversation so far:

You said,

WHOOOH!

Yes they did?

What are you talking about?

I’m starting to think that you don’t know what you are talking about not what I’m talking about. Your second sentence above for example. Are you asking? Or is that some sort of statement with a question mark attached for some reason?

Look, above you said,

I was actually talking about the good angels.

The bad ones don't have bodies, and therefore aren't like us at all.

So are you saying that the good angels had bodies but the bad ones did not? Why is there a difference if you are saying that they were all angels?

Then you said,

They were only without sin because they couldn't sin... until they were given a choice.

When would you say they were given the choice? Before, during, or after they rebelled against God?

Thanks,

Dr. T

[Princess3dward]

They were only without sin because they couldn't sin... until they were given a choice.

When would you say they were given the choice? Before, during, or after they rebelled against God?

Thanks,

Dr. T

OH! HERE IS WHERE I WAS LOST!

They were given a choice when God proposed His plan.

Look, above you said,

I was actually talking about the good angels.

The bad ones don't have bodies, and therefore aren't like us at all.

So are you saying that the good angels had bodies but the bad ones did not? Why is there a difference if you are saying that they were all angels?

The good angels HAVE bodies...

In a way... they are us...

[Dr T]

Are you saying that we start out as angels and then get human bodies?

[Princess3dward]

Define angel.

I want to be on the same page as you Doc.

[Dr T]

I need you to define the terms that you are using. Maybe that will help me.

Thanks,

Dr. T

[Outshined]

From Mormon Doctrine:

Angels

God's messengers, those individuals whom he sends (often from his personal presence in the eternal worlds), to deliver his messages (Luke 1:11-38); to minister to his children (Acts 10:1-8, 30-32); to teach them the doctrines of salvation (Mosiah 3); to call them to repentance (Moro. 7:31); to give them priesthood and keys (D. & C. 13; 128:20-21); to save them in perilous circumstances (1 Ne. 3:29-31; Dan. 6:22); to guide them in the performance of his work (Gen. 24: 7); to gather his elect in the last days (Matt. 24:31); to perform all needful things relative to his work (Moro. 7:29-33) — such messengers are called angels.These messengers, agents, angels of the Almighty, are chosen from among his offspring and are themselves pressing forward along the course of progression and salvation, all in their respective spheres. The following types of beings serve the Lord as angels:1. Pre-existent Spirits. — Before men were first placed on this earth, there was war in heaven. "Michael and his angel fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels." (Rev. 12:7.) All the angels here involved were the spirit children of the Father. The angel who appeared to Adam, the first man, and asked him why he was offering sacrifices apparently was one of these spirits from pre-existence (Moses 5:6-8), for no angels minister to this earth except those who belong to it (D. & C. 130:5), and up to that time no one had been either translated or resurrected.2. Translated Beings. — Many righteous Persons in the early days of the earth's history were translated. (Inspired Version, Gen. 14:26-36.) Enoch and the whole city of Zion were among these. (Moses 7:18-69.) These translated Personages became "ministering angels unto many planets." (Teachings, p. 170.) Many of the angels who ministered to righteous men anciently, without question, were translated beings. The Three Nephites, after their translation, became "as the angels of God" (3 Ne. 28:30), and have continued to minister and appear unto mortal men from time to time. John the Revelator ministered as a translated being to the Prophet and Oliver Cowdery in connection with the restoration of the Melchizedek Priesthood. (D. & C. 7; 27:12-13.) It could well be that Paul had translated beings in mind when he said that "some have entertained angels unawares." (Heb. 13:2.)3. Spirits Of Just Men Made Perfect. — Part of the "innumerable company of angels" in "the heavenly place" are the "spirits of just men made perfect." (D. & C. 76:66-69; Heb. 12:22-24) These are the spirits of men who have worked out their salvation, but are awaiting the day of the resurrection. (D. & C. 129.)4. Resurrected Personages. — Many instances of ministration by resurrected angels have occurred since the coming forth of our Lord from the tomb. (Matt. 27:52-53; Hela. 14:25.) These angels, having bodies of flesh and bones (D. & C. 129), have played an indispensable part in the restoration of the gospel. Peter, James (D. & C. 27:12-13; 128: 20), John the Baptist (D. & C. 13), Moroni, Michael, Gabriel, Raphael (D. & C. 128:20-21), Moses, Elijah, and Elias (D. & C. 110:11-16; 133: 54-55) all came to earth as resurrected personages to confer their keys, powers, and authorities again upon men. Moses and Elijah, who the first instance had been translated, "were with Christ in his resurrection." (D. & C. 133:55.)It is of these angels, and others of like righteousness, that the revelation says: "Then shall the angels be crowned with the glory of his might, and the saints shall be filled with his glory, and receive their inheritance and be made equal with him" (D. & C. 88:107), meaning that these worthy saints and angels shall receive exaltation. They shall be gods. But those angels who did not abide in the fulness of the gospel law shall, after their resurrection, continue as "angels of God forever and ever." Such group shall be "ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory." (D. & C. 132:16-17.)5. Righteous Mortal Men. — Even certain righteous mortal men are called angels in the revelations. The King James version gives an account of "two angels" rescuing Lot from Sodom. In the account these angels are called "men" and the wicked inhabitants of Sodom so considered them. (Gen. 19.) The Inspired version tells us that actually there were "three angels," and that these "angels of God" in reality "were holy men." (Inspired Version, Gen. 19.)Also in the King James version, the Lord is quoted as saying such things as, "Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write" (Rev. 2:1) such and such, meaning that the message should be written to the bishop or presiding elder, such individual being designated as an angel. (Rev. 2:8, 12, 18; 3:1, 7, 14.) In the Inspired version this rather unusual usage of the name angel is changed so that the quotation reads, "Unto the servant of the church of Ephesus write." (Inspired Version, Rev. 2:1, 8, 12, 18; 3:1, 7, 14.) This inspired rendition more accurately accords with the manner in which we ordinarily use words today.

[Princess3dward]

*shrugs* I am not using a dictionary.

I call spirit people who are not currently not here angels.

[Dr T]

Thank you Outshined. :)

Des,

I call spirit people who are not currently not here angels

So you are saying that you are calling "sprit people that are not currently here angels." You are saying that the good spirit people (angels) had bodies but the bad spirit people didn't. Why are you making that distinction?

Dr. T

[Outshined]

Thank you Outshined. :)

Anytime. :) I was just tryng to give you a common definition to work with.

[Princess3dward]

Thank you Outshined. :)

Des,

I call spirit people who are not currently not here angels

So you are saying that you are calling "sprit people that are not currently here angels." You are saying that the good spirit people (angels) had bodies but the bad spirit people didn't. Why are you making that distinction?

Dr. T

Because they are either coming, or came to earth.

That is MY OPINION.

Needed to add that.