Perhaps It's Time To Leave Again

[Jason]

My Friends,

This morning I had a very humbling experience. I attended Mass this morning, and the lector read a few passages from Isaiah and Matthew. The ones in Matthew got to me the most, because I felt like God was condemning me. If I might paraphrase, It was the passage where Christ condemned the priests, scribes, etc for their inability to practice what they preach.

I've often prided myself in my knowledge of scripture. But it seems that that pride is what is preventing me from knowing God. Bragging and showing off and telling others what they should be doing is not bringing me closer to Christ. While I will not turn away any one who has a question for me personally, I don't think that I should attempt to persuade others to follow me until I have "been converted".

I hope that God will help you all in your spiritual journeys. I will occasionally lurk around, but I will be signing off for now.

May God Forgive Us For Our Contentions.

Jason

[AFDaw]

Wow...I admit to not knowing the entire history behind you, but seems like a very sincere post. Goodluck in your own spiritual journey, hope you find what you're looking for.

[Snow]

Jason,

What is your deal? I never feel that you are "contending" with me. It's just an academic exercise. Don't worry on my account, but good luck in whatever you are trying to achieve...

[srm]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Mar 9 2004, 09:39 AM

My Friends,

This morning I had a very humbling experience. I attended Mass this morning, and the lector read a few passages from Isaiah and Matthew. The ones in Matthew got to me the most, because I felt like God was condemning me. If I might paraphrase, It was the passage where Christ condemned the priests, scribes, etc for their inability to practice what they preach.

I've often prided myself in my knowledge of scripture. But it seems that that pride is what is preventing me from knowing God. Bragging and showing off and telling others what they should be doing is not bringing me closer to Christ. While I will not turn away any one who has a question for me personally, I don't think that I should attempt to persuade others to follow me until I have "been converted".

I hope that God will help you all in your spiritual journeys. I will occasionally lurk around, but I will be signing off for now.

May God Forgive Us For Our Contentions.

Jason

I think that we can discuss and even disagree without being disagreeable. Why not stick around and discuss?

[Guest curvette]

Good luck Jason! I've enjoyed your posts.

[Jason]

Maybe Im becomming more of a "feeling" type person, but as much as I enjoy our "discussions" I don't normally feel better when I walk away from my computer. (Unless I feel I've demolished the competition.) But that is not a lasting sensation. It is not from God, but from my own conceit.

I want to continue our discussions, but I think I need a "time out" before I resume. I also need to stop being such an arrogant jerk at times. I only want to participate in discussions that stick to the topic, and will not necessarily require one to forsake their faith to concede a point. That way, I need not offend anyone. I'll let Christ offend if He will, and I'll just watch.

Jason

PS. Curvette, thanks. You're a very nice person. You never seem to offend anyone. You are a great example.

[Lindy]

Jason~

Bragging and showing off and telling others what they should be doing is not bringing me closer to Christ.

I have learned a lot from you, I have been brought closer to God because of you. I read a lot of what you post, and then I contemplate and look within myself. I was really irratated at first reading your postings....but then realized that you have a good heart, and read your postings with an open mind, and got a lot out of them.

You have learned a lot about yourself, and just to know that there is something that you need to work on to progress is a big step. If you feel the spirit telling you anything....that is a very good thing.....and I am happy for you. I say do what you need to do for yourself and your relationship with the Lord.

Thank you Jason for the insights you have given me,

Lindy

[Snow]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Mar 9 2004, 11:05 AM

Maybe Im becomming more of a "feeling" type person, but as much as I enjoy our "discussions" I don't normally feel better when I walk away from my computer. (Unless I feel I've demolished the competition.) But that is not a lasting sensation. It is not from God, but from my own conceit.

PS. Curvette, thanks. You're a very nice person. You never seem to offend anyone. You are a great example.

I hear that Jason. At the height of my attackitude, I was generally miserable and unkind to other off the board, on account of the ill feelings I generated on the board. Now I just throw a few half-hearted barbs at Trident and lately Porter so I don't lose my touch but I definately relate to how the board can eat away at your spirituality.

By the way, just so you know, Curvette is actually a felon under lock down at Pelican Bay Maximum Security. Most people never catch on.

[Jason]

Thanks Lindy.

Snow,

You know, I've been thinking. I haven't posted this but I'd like to. If it were up to me (and of course it's not) I would love to build a community where all righteous minded people of ANY "christian" denomination could come together and be at peace. We would not discuss specific points of doctrine, just those simple basics we share in common (ie. the golden rule), and allow each other to contemplate the deeper things on their own. To me, that would be a better paradise than any we as individual churches have tried to establish over the last 2000 years. No contention. Plenty of study for those of us who enjoy it, but a brotherly attitude throughtout. I would rather live next to a righteous Jehovah's Witness or Mormon or whatever than an unrighteous Catholic.

Something I wanted everyone to know...

Jason

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

[Ray]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@ Mar 9 2004, 11:58 AM

You know, I've been thinking. I haven't posted this but I'd like to. If it were up to me (and of course it's not) I would love to build a community where all righteous minded people of ANY "christian" denomination could come together and be at peace. We would not discuss specific points of doctrine, just those simple basics we share in common (ie. the golden rule), and allow each other to contemplate the deeper things on their own. To me, that would be a better paradise than any we as individual churches have tried to establish over the last 2000 years. No contention. Plenty of study for those of us who enjoy it, but a brotherly attitude throughtout. I would rather live next to a righteous Jehovah's Witness or Mormon or whatever than an unrighteous Catholic.

Well there’s an interesting idea. I wonder how original it is.

First off, who is it up to? If it is even possible to “build a community where all righteous minded people of ANY “Christian” denomination could come together and be at peace”, who could do that? What would be involved? Would it ever really happen?

We would not discuss specific points of doctrine, just those simple basics we share in common life (ie. the golden rule), and allow each other to contemplate the deeper things on their own.

Who would enforce that policy? How would they enforce it? What if some people within that society didn’t follow it? What would happen to them?

To me, that would be a better paradise than any we as individual churches have tried to establish over the last 2000 years.

Hmm, have you ever heard of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? I think they pretty much agree with allowing everyone to worship God as their conscience dictates, although they do sometimes try to help people understand what God has revealed to them. They had one man among them who stated something about teaching people correct principles and then letting them govern themselves. This man also stated that whatever principles of intelligence we attain in this life will give us an advantage in the life to come. Nowhere did he or any of their other prophets ever teach that they should all go out and force people to accept what they believe. Some members of that church try to do that, but most believe that they should only try to help people understand their beliefs when it appears that other people really want to know.

No contention.

Yah, that would be nice. Nobody arguing with me when I say something. Everybody just happily accepting as truth whatever I tell them to be true. Either that or just leaving me alone to go on and on forever with my false beliefs and understanding. If I’m wrong, who does it hurt except me? You don’t suppose that other people are forced to believe what I tell them is true, do you? Why all the hubbub, bub?

Plenty of study for those of us who enjoy it, but a brotherly attitude throughout.

How would this brotherly attitude be manifest? What would these people be doing for each other, or with each other? Would there be any policies to govern righteous behavior about this issue?

I would rather live next to a righteous Jehovah's Witness or Mormon or whatever than an unrighteous Catholic.

Me too. And from what I understand, that may be God’s version of a righteous society too. As long as people honor His laws, I don’t think it really matters to Him whether or not people are also citizens in His kingdom. Becoming a citizen in His kingdom has certain privileges and blessings, but nobody will be forced to do what God wants them to do other than to obey His laws. But hey, every other government expects that, don’t they?

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Ray+Mar 9 2004, 01:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ray @ Mar 9 2004, 01:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--ExMormon-Jason@ Mar 9 2004, 11:58 AM

You know, I've been thinking. I haven't posted this but I'd like to. If it were up to me (and of course it's not) I would love to build a community where all righteous minded people of ANY "christian" denomination could come together and be at peace. We would not discuss specific points of doctrine, just those simple basics we share in common (ie. the golden rule), and allow each other to contemplate the deeper things on their own. To me, that would be a better paradise than any we as individual churches have tried to establish over the last 2000 years. No contention. Plenty of study for those of us who enjoy it, but a brotherly attitude throughtout. I would rather live next to a righteous Jehovah's Witness or Mormon or whatever than an unrighteous Catholic.

Well there’s an interesting idea. I wonder how original it is.

First off, who is it up to? If it is even possible to “build a community where all righteous minded people of ANY “Christian” denomination could come together and be at peace”, who could do that? What would be involved? Would it ever really happen?

Sounds like the Unitarian Universalist Church to me. I went there once, and enjoyed it.

But how could one ever convince Catholics, Mormons, Baptists, Jews, Muslims, etc. to all go there each Sunday instead of attending their own meetings?

The only people who would show up would be the liberal-minded ones.

Hmm, have you ever heard of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? I think they pretty much agree with allowing everyone to worship God as their conscience dictates

True...but if your views contradict LDS teachings in any way you are better off to keep quiet about it. Like I do

[Jenda]

Jason, I would hate for you to leave. I do know (believe me I know) how it feels when one gets caught up in an aspect of the journey that is not productive and may even be counterproductive. I do believe that this is all part of the journey, but when it becomes the main focus, it does indeed detract from the main part of the journey. I know that I have had a similar experience as you when I posted on the CoC board, and felt the only option was to leave. I enjoy the witnessing aspects of the board, but the constant arguments brought out the worst side of me, and left me spiritually and emotionally drained. I wish I could say that in the meantime I have found a suitable alternative, but I haven't. I rarely go back to my church's board, and when I do, it is the same old thing all over again.

One of the things that I have found is that this board for me is close to a suitable alternative because even though we differ on some of the finer points of discussions, I have found allies in the LDS. And I love to discuss gospel and gospel-related issues which they do here, I don't see that they do it on the CoC board that much. Maybe you can find, here, or somewhere, a place that offers a positive change, a place that allows you to bear a positive testimony.

Please don't feel you need to leave. Pray about things you post, and try to post them in loving words. Remember, each one of us is your brother or sister. That is what God calls us to do. To love one another as He loves us.

Jenda

[Jason]

Well Ray,

It looks like it wouldn't be the place for you. There would be no enforcement. It would be strictly voluntary. If you didn't like it, you could leave.

TS,

You of course would probably love it. It would be nice to have you for a neighbor.

Jenda,

I put so much into my posts, that it's emotionally draining sometimes. That's one of the reasons I gave up being an LDS Seminary teacher. I'd put alot into my classes, only to have a negative or neutral response from the high school age students.

But thanks for your response.

Jason

[Ray]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@ Mar 9 2004, 02:00 PM

It looks like it wouldn't be the place for you. There would be no enforcement. It would be strictly voluntary. If you didn't like it, you could leave.

Heh, no enforcement at all? What if I liked all the laws that everyone else was obeying, and I just didn’t want to obey all the laws myself? Would I be allowed to do anything I wanted? Would I be forced to obey any of the laws at all? Would anybody make me leave? Or would everyone else have no other choice but to put up with me and whatever I wanted to do?

Sounds like it might be fun. Let me know if you ever get a place like that going, will you?

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Ray+Mar 9 2004, 02:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ray @ Mar 9 2004, 02:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--ExMormon-Jason@ Mar 9 2004, 02:00 PM

It looks like it wouldn't be the place for you. There would be no enforcement. It would be strictly voluntary. If you didn't like it, you could leave.

Heh, no enforcement at all?

What is to enforce?

As Jason said, it would be a place to discuss the things all religions have in common.

The deeper doctrines would not be discussed...just left to private meditation and study.

I suppose if someone started trying to start deep doctrinal discussions, which might start arguments, the group would ignore him until he left. I guess the pressure of being ignored could be a form of "enforcement" of the rules.

[Jason]

Ray,

Im not going to discuss this with you. I would be looking for people willing to live in harmony with other spiritual people, even if those other people have a different doctrinal slant. That to me is Zion. You obviously don't want that kind of life. To each his own.

Jason

[Ray]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@ Mar 9 2004, 02:35 PM

I’m not going to discuss this with you. I would be looking for people willing to live in harmony with other spiritual people, even if those other people have a different doctrinal slant. That to me is Zion. You obviously don't want that kind of life. To each his own.

Hey, are you prejudiced against me or something? Are you at least willing to tell me what the ground rules would be? Or are you just going to say to me, No, Ray, you can not come here.

What do you mean by a different doctrinal slant? What basic beliefs must someone have?

Are you saying that you’ll accept anyone who will simply acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ? Hey, I’ll do that!

Are you saying that you don’t want people to discuss anything at all? That people should be free to run around doing whatever they want as long as they don’t talk to each other about what they’re doing? Is that what do you mean by living in harmony?

What if the actions of one person offend the sensitivities of another person? Would the offended person have no recourse other than to leave that society or tolerate the behavior of the offending person? Would that mean that there would be some other place for people with greater sensitivities?

Hmm, if that’s your idea of a perfect society, I don’t think I would like it, but it is nice to know that I would be able to come and go visit people there as I please. Just don’t expect to get away with doing whatever you want to do whenever you come visit me where I live. If you’re allowed to come visit me, that is.

[Jason]

TS,

Thanks. As I said, you can be my neighbor anytime.

Ray,

You have proved my point. This is why I don't want to post anymore. I put out an idea that is important to me, and someone always comes around to destroy it. Good bye Ray.

J

[Ray]

If it had been a good idea I think it would still be an idea worth keeping. All I can say now is, You're welcome, for helping you to realize that it wasn't.

[Guest curvette]

Ray. You act like an incredible jerk sometimes.

[Guest lt]

jason ,

I would hate to see go, your post's always make me think and I like that.....I hope you return.

Laureltree

[Ray]

Originally posted by curvette@Mar 9 2004, 03:34 PM

Ray. You act like an incredible jerk sometimes.

Would you define “jerk” please?

What did I do that was so terrible?

I showed Jason and everyone else who is reading this thread the weaknesses in Jason’s vision of a perfect society. Was it wrong of me to do that? Should I have simply praised him for having a fairly good idea, despite those weaknesses? Should I have said nothing about those weaknesses, and allowed him to figure it all out by himself? Or are you saying that your vision of a perfect society totally agrees with his?

We’re on this board to debate issues, to bring out the strengths and weaknesses of different arguments, are we not? Do you have some other vision for how this board should be used?

Pray tell. What is your problem, really?

[Jason]

Laurel,

Thank you.

Ray,

(For the other thread) Perhaps what Scott is trying to get through to you is that Christ has led his wife elswhere. Now you seem to think that it's impossible for God to tell you one thing and Scott's wife another. God would be consistent you say. Okay.

But did you ever think for just one minute that it might be God talking to Scott's wife, and you're listening to another spirit?!

(for this thread) It looks to me like there are more who would be willing to live in my type of community that there are of yours. Take a look inside (as Peace would say) and ask yourself why....

Jason

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Ray@Mar 9 2004, 03:53 PM

Pray tell. What is your problem, really?

It seems that it is you.