Near Beer, does it technically pass WoW?

[cwald]

Why do people drink near beer? So if they drink a 8oz glass of extract they are drinking it for the flavor? Frankly I doubt it. I am not sure how any one can even choke it down but then again I dont know how people choke beer down. The stench is so bad.

Well, you obviously don't know much about the art of beer. People who drink beer know the difference between good and bad beer ---- And it is an art - and a science.

Someone mentioned this thread is an example about justification of sin. Personally, I think it is a thread about Pharisacial practice and behavior. Nit picking and trying to detemine the sin value of a drink that contains .05% alcohol - less than cough syrup.

Wow.

[Guest]

Mouthwash is to be used medicinally, so that's not a good comparison against near beer.

[Iggy]

We may have ended up with a couple tablespoons in a half gallon pitcher of OJ, but I was using shot more colloquially. So that'd be the alcohol equivalent of, assuming the max of two tablespoons, a half dozen near beers. 1 tablespoon is probably more common, so that'd be the equivalent of 3 near beers.

There is a difference between an ounce of booze added to 6 oz of OJ- THAT is a Screwdriver. A teaspoon of vanilla extract to 6 oz of OJ, is not

Why on earth is that relevant? If I put a tablespoon (or some other measure) of extract in my frosting the alcohol doesn't magically dissipate because I use some cream too.

It isn't. The more of the vanilla extract you use, the more alcohol you are trying to get.

A half teaspoon (70%) has the same amount of alcohol as a near beer(0.5%). You don't have to consume it by the ounce to get an equivalent amount of alcohol.

You do not drink vanilla extract like one does beer or vodka. If you drink 6 cans of near beer, you might as well drink one can of regular beer.

If you use extracts with alcohol you are engaging in alcohol consumption. And one doesn't have to consume 6 or 12 cans to be consuming alcohol, one can is consuming alcohol (heck, one sip is).

ALL extracts use ethanol alcohol- that is how they are made. BUT the flavoring is so intense one does not use more than a few teaspoons of it, and it is added to a food that eventually decreases the mass amount consumed.

Add it to cake batter- and to the frosting, generally one person does not consume the entire cake in less than an hour. If you were to add one ounce of vodka to the frosting, then eat all of the frosting within one hour- THAT is the same as drinking one ounce of vodka in 6 ounces of OJ.

I've seen extracts up to 85%+ ABV, that's 170 proof. I'm unsure what your point is here.

My point is one does NOT drink extracts like they would drink a can of beer or a highball of whiskey or a screwdriver. THAT IS MY POINT!!

And yet the alcohol they contain doesn't magically disappear because it's not a beverage. If you use any alcoholic extract you are consuming alcohol, and even if we let ourselves pretend it all cooks out, extracts are used for non-cooked applications.

WHERE did I say it cooks out???? I did not. A bottle of vanilla extract is not much larger than 8 oz. The intensity of the vanilla flavoring is very off putting except for the most hard core alcoholic. ANY flavor extract for that matter.

What I am saying is that near beer is still alcohol. If it is used strictly as a flavoring say in batter that you deep fry, or pancakes (one restaurant here in my town puts beer in their pancake batter- personally I think it is nasty tasting) then it wouldn't matter one way or another because of the very small amount of beer that is being used/consumed.

In the 30 years I was drinking wine and alcohol, I was also bartending, cocktailing, and I owned a bar. I never once had a customer who when drinking Near Beer stop at one beer. Generally they consumed up wards of 3 to a max of 12. THAT is drinking alcohol. THAT is against the word of wisdom.

[cwald]

How many steps are we allowed to take on Sunday, before it is breaking the sabbath?

Hmmm?

[Guest]

I suppose you're cool with smoking cloves, too? The comparison is totally ridiculous. It's WEAK BEER. We don't drink. I can't believe this is even a question.

[annewandering]

How many steps are we allowed to take on Sunday, before it is breaking the sabbath?

Hmmm?

Why are you even asking? Why are we even asking about extracts? No one has ever said extracts are against the word of wisdom. We have always known beer was against it. If you are asking if Near Beer is against the word of wisdom then you are questioning it yourself. Why is that? Why do you wonder? It has always seemed good policy to err on the side of right than on the side of wrong. If you wonder then dont do it.

[cwald]

Ahhhh, no. The word of wisdom is not about BEER. It's about alcohol. Is root beer against the word of wisdom? Of course not.

And to take it a step further, it's about "moderation in all things" and using the spirit and common sense.

Edited February 23, 2012 by cwald

[cwald]

As has been pointed out in this thread, if Near Beer is against the word of wisdom, than so is nyquil, cough syrup, mouthwash, and apparently a gazillion other things like extact (whatever that is).

I really don't think this is what Joseph Smith had in mind when he recorded the Section 89.

If you don't feel comfortable, than fine, don't drink Near Beer. But to include it as a commandment and a doctrinally prohibited substance in the LDS church is really, IMO, as somebody else alluded to, "looking beyond the mark."

[uniderth]

I don't meant start anything but I haven't been able to find anything against drinking beer in the Church Handbook. Where is the official policy against beer listed?

[Dove]

Wow,

It's kind of sad how this thread is going. I'd hate to see it closed due to contention/arguing/insulting each other. It would be the contention that would leave me feeling bad, not so much the near beer.

Having said that, I have mixed feelings on this topic. I didn't know that near beer was simply a weaker beer. Good to know. I wouldn't feel comfortable drinking near beer and saying I was keeping the WoW. But, that's just me. I have a very near and dear loved one who struggled with alcoholism for many years. He used to drink near beer when he was trying to abstain from alcohol. Of course, loving him as much as I do, any progress towards sobriety I looked at with gratitude. Sadly, the near beer never really did keep him from drinking the harder stuff...

I'm so glad to report that he's been sober for several years now. I seldom see him drink near beer, if at all. He's replaced the alcohol with athletics, an addiction I am so glad to see him participate in rather than the alcohol.

While I am very strict on certain things in the gospel, I agree with the postings that have said that is for each of us to decide for ourselves personally. That if God is angry with people for breaking the commandments and justifying themselves in partaking of the holy ordinances in the gospel without going through the correct steps of repentance, that's between them and God. That He will reckon with them in His own due time. I really wouldn't want to be one of those people. But, it is none of my business and not mine to judge them for their choice.....

Dove

[cwald]

I didn't know that near beer was simply a weaker beer. Good to know. I wouldn't feel comfortable drinking near beer and saying I was keeping the WoW.

For the record, Near Beer is .05% alcohol. A good Oregon beer is 5.0 to 7.0% alcohol. In Utah, the beer is 3.2% I believe. Near beer really is not "beer" at all as far as an "alcohol drink" is concerned.

And for the record, it's much healthier than drinking soda.

[cwald]

I don't meant start anything but I haven't been able to find anything against drinking beer in the Church Handbook. Where is the official policy against beer listed?

Beer is not mentioned by name. Alcohol is in there under either the baptism questions or the temple recommend questions, under WoW. It clarifies that the word wisdom means abstaining from alcohol, tea, coffee and tobacco.

And so, if an insignificant amount of alcohol in near beer is a violation, than so would nyquil, mouthwash, cough medicine and apparently "extract."

[Dravin]

There is a difference between an ounce of booze added to 6 oz of OJ- THAT is a Screwdriver. A teaspoon of vanilla extract to 6 oz of OJ, is not

Except alcohol wise I might as well drink two near beers. Yet the one ingestion is acceptable while the other is not because one comes in a bottle and the other is added to my juice via a measuring spoon.

It isn't. The more of the vanilla extract you use, the more alcohol you are trying to get.

I haven't talked about trying to get alcohol through any means. I've talked about consuming alcohol. Someone putting a teaspoon of extract in their glass of OJ or drinking a couple near beers (equivalent amounts of alcohol) to get alcohol has issues. Setting aside the Word of Wisdom they have some serious efficiency issues.

If someone put a relatively large amount of extract in their whipped cream that they were trying to increase the alcohol content would be the last thought on my mind. I'd assume they just really like X flavor. Likewise if someone likes to have a near beer with dinner I'd not assume they're doing it to get alcohol.

You do not drink vanilla extract like one does beer or vodka.

Correct. What people will do without thinking twice about it is consume enough vanilla extract that it is the equivalent amount of alcohol to a near beer or two.

If you were to add one ounce of vodka to the frosting, then eat all of the frosting within one hour- THAT is the same as drinking one ounce of vodka in 6 ounces of OJ.

And if you drink a glass of OJ with a teaspoon of extract it's like drinking two near beers.

My point is one does NOT drink extracts like they would drink a can of beer or a highball of whiskey or a screwdriver. THAT IS MY POINT!!

Has anyone been saying people drink extracts like beer or whiskey (a few comments about desperate alcoholics aside)? I certainly haven't. I've been saying people consume extracts in amounts that are alcoholically equivalent to a near beer or two without second thought.

WHERE did I say it cooks out????

You didn't say it. It was a reference to the larger context of how people justify extract consumption to themselves.

What I am saying is that near beer is still alcohol.

And what I'm saying is extracts are still alcohol. People are making an interesting distinction in how the alcohol is being obtained that is quite curious. If your glass containing just under 1.8 mL of alcohol is orange juice and vanilla flavored it's okay (according to most people I imagine), but if it's beer flavored it's not.

Generally they consumed up wards of 3 to a max of 12. THAT is drinking alcohol. THAT is against the word of wisdom.

So if someone had one near beer it wouldn't be against the Word of Wisdom then? Keep in mind that 3 beers would be 1.5 teaspoons of extract. So if I had three glasses of OJ with a quarter teaspoon of extract each is that against the Word of Wisdom?

I suspect you'll bring up if some person is doing it in an effort to obtain alcohol then there is an issue. And I'm inclined to agree with you, but some people do drink beer because they like the taste. Just like when I add extract to whipped cream or OJ it's not to add alcohol, it's because I like the taste.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Dravin

[Dove]

For the record, Near Beer is .05% alcohol. A good Oregon beer is 5.0 to 7.0% alcohol. In Utah, the beer is 3.2% I believe. Near beer really is not "beer" at all as far as an "alcohol drink" is concerned.

And for the record, it's much healthier than drinking soda.

Thanks for the clarification, cwald.

Yes, I do drink a great deal of soda nearly every day. I'm hooked and am trying to get off it. It's really hard to do for me.....

There definitely is a "spirit of the law" angle to the word of wisdom. Being diabetic, I'm not comfortable saying I keep the WoW when I don't eat correctly, or drink the soda, or not take care of my diabetes. These are all aspects of the WoW for me that I feel accountable to God for and yet struggle keeping.....

I believe if we all truly kept the WoW we would treat out bodies as a temple and eat much more healthily.....I'll never forget watching someone pray over her Kentucky Fried Chicken. The irony of knowing she was probably asking for something soo unhealthy as deep fried chicken to "nourish and strengthen her body" was not lost on me, being as aware of healthy eating as I was. But, again, to each his own. It's not mine to judge. As was said to me not long ago, we each need to clean our side of the street before presuming to clean others....

Dove

[cwald]

That is a good post Dravin.

It just occurred to me, that it would take an average of 12 Near Beers to equal the alcohol content of one oregon beer.

Okay - yeah, that would probably make any person on this planet deathly bloated and sick as a dog before they consumed enough alcohol to actually even get a buzz.

[skippy740]

The Word of Wisdom is not about alcohol, drugs, tobacco or tea. It's not about health.

The Word of Wisdom is a spiritual and holiness law.

God's covenant people have always had a code of health of one variation or another. The reason we follow it, is because we honor our covenants.

Trying to measure the amount of alcohol in one form versus another is akin to the Pharisees measuring the number of steps taken on the Sabbath day. You are trying to hard to justify yourself against the letter of the law versus willingly obeying the spirit of the law. "If one must be commanded in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant"... or something like that.

That said, I would be avoiding all appearances of evil in the things I consume. I wouldn't be having near beer or non-alcoholic wines for drinking. Now, if you want to cook with it, fine. You're not drinking it, you are cooking with it.

We can get into the discussion of energy drinks too. The Word of Wisdom advises against strong drinks... which has been interpreted to mean alcohol. However, some of these energy drinks are very strong... just in a different way.

Follow the Word of Wisdom as a law of holiness and you (probably) can't go wrong.

[Iggy]

I add extract to whipped cream or OJ it's not to add alcohol, it's because I like the taste.

I add 1 cap of vanilla and 2 packets of Splenda to 20 oz. of 2% milk because I like the taste. To me it is a triple thin milkshake, I only drink one.

I am now officially out of this conversation -

[Dravin]

As has been pointed out in this thread, if Near Beer is against the word of wisdom, than so is nyquil, cough syrup, mouthwash, and apparently a gazillion other things like extact (whatever that is).

For example: Pure Lemon Extract

[Iggy]

The Word of Wisdom is not about alcohol, drugs, tobacco or tea. It's not about health.

The Word of Wisdom is a spiritual and holiness law.

It is too about health. Read it again, and go to the verses in the foot notes and read those scriptures. Yes it is about health.

[Dove]

Thanks Iggy,

Absolutely is the WoW about health, as well as spirituality and holiness. As I said earlier, we need to treat our bodies as the temple God gave us....

[Iggy]

Beer is not mentioned by name. Alcohol is in there under either the baptism questions or the temple recommend questions, under WoW. It clarifies that the word wisdom means abstaining from alcohol, tea, coffee and tobacco.

And so, if an insignificant amount of alcohol in near beer is a violation, than so would nyquil, mouthwash, cough medicine and apparently "extract."

Beer IS alcohol. Nyquil, mouthwash and cough medicine are not to be consumed like beer/hard liquor is consumed. For those who are allergic to ethanol alcohol, they can not use those medicines. I am allergic to ethanol alcohol. The cold remedies I get have to be alcohol free.

OK, now I am truly done.

[skippy740]

It is too about health. Read it again, and go to the verses in the foot notes and read those scriptures. Yes it is about health.

Yes and no. We're agreeing in a disagreeing fashion. :)

When most people talk about the Word of Wisdom and, more specifically what it "forbids", they talk about the HEALTH implications that have been "proven" either by science or personal observation and experiences. Most missionaries talk about this doctrine in the same way.

BTW, note that the scriptures have more "DO's" than "DON'Ts", yet we almost exclusively focus on the "dont's".

There are people who live to a very old age drinking and smoking (responsibly). DNA and genetics has more to do with that person's long life.

So why follow the Word of Wisdom if it's all seems to be by genetics anyway?

Most people are also talking about "how much they can get away with and still get a temple recommend" (as the direction of this thread has gone).

Yes, it is about health... but towards what purpose? The purpose is for us to draw closer to the promptings of the spirit and enjoy the blessings promised in the scriptures.

It's MORE about a spiritual law to show that we are a "peculiar people" who live IN the world, but are not OF the world.

If we are measuring how much alcohol we can "get away with", then we don't have a strong enough testimony on this particular point of doctrine.

[uniderth]

I remember my mother's reaction to seeing ginger beer sold in the London temple cafeteria. I think the word beer can cause a negative reaction in many people. While I don't know enough about Near Beer. I think it's possible that the simple fact it has "beer" in it's name may put some people off.

[Dravin]

Most people are also talking about "how much they can get away with and still get a temple recommend" (as the direction of this thread has gone).

Tell me about it:

Now, if you want to cook with it, fine.

A question though:

If we are measuring how much alcohol we can "get away with", then we don't have a strong enough testimony on this particular point of doctrine.

Would that include those making arbitrary distinctions such as cooking with it so they can "get away with" it? Here is the issue with climbing into the, "You just don't have a strong enough testimony " or "Oh you justifier!" chair, somewhere there is probably someone who has decided to take a stricter stand that you. There are individuals who have decided cooking with alcohol is against the Word of Wisdom. There are even those who avoid alcoholic extracts as much as possible.

What's amusing is I wouldn't drink near beer, nor would I be buying some alcohol to cook with. Though I do enjoy extracts and I must confess buying beer battered shrimp at a restaurant doesn't bother me. Here is the thing, just as you can justify cooking with alcohol, or I can justify some beer battered shrimp (as does Iggy apparently) so could someone justify that it's such a minute amount of alcohol so it falls under a mild barely drink. I'm inclined to have them take it to the Lord and their priesthood leader rather than deride them as trying to ride the line or that they just don't have a strong enough testimony when they are just applying the same logic quite a few apply to extracts. I mean that figuratively of course, the person the OP is talking about isn't here, but I can see how one can reach a similar conclusion to near beer as one can for extracts, or even cooking with alcohol for those using the 'it cooks out' justification without thinking, "Just how close can I get?"

Edited February 23, 2012 by Dravin

[skippy740]

I can laugh at myself!