Message to all from the Holy Spirit through me

[Dravin]

Is God's love not unconditional?

(New Testament | 1 John 4:19)

19 We love him, because he first loved us.

God loves us before we love and serve Him - that sounds unconditional to me. Of coarse it is not loving to allow someone to wallow in their filth, so until we love Him He will allow us the refining experiences we need...

That's a good scripture, and probably in line with his thinking. However loving first isn't unconditional, if we could somehow lose his love even if he loved us first then it is not unconditional. It'd probably take multiple scripture to pull together the necessary components, between the two of ours I think a decent case could be made, there are probably more out there though.

[applepansy]

Thank you, pam, for that useful post.

I was going to say I agree also but it seems superfluous now.

[Seminarysnoozer]

It seems that substituting the word "charity" when "Love" is intended weakens the message.

I think charity implies a certain amount of empathy and understanding of the person's situation which is greater than love. It implies a certain relation between the two. "The love of Christ" was exemplified by Christ because He knows all of us so well. He couldn't have charity for us if He didn't know us well enough or at least our situation. I can "love" my new car but I can never have charity for it.

[peteolcott]

I think charity implies a certain amount of empathy and understanding of the person's situation which is greater than love. It implies a certain relation between the two. "The love of Christ" was exemplified by Christ because He knows all of us so well. He couldn't have charity for us if He didn't know us well enough or at least our situation. I can "love" my new car but I can never have charity for it.

It might be the case that the best way to translate the Greek word [agape] is the way that most LDS say {the pure Love of Christ}.

charity

1. generous actions or donations to aid the poor, ill, or helpless: to devote one's life to charity.

love

1. a profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person.

[pam]

charity

1. generous actions or donations to aid the poor, ill, or helpless: to devote one's life to charity.

Charity is much more than generous actions or donations to aid the poor.

Here is what it says at lds.org:

Charity is the pure love of Christ. It is the love that Christ has for the children of men and that the children of men should have for one another. It is the highest, noblest, and strongest kind of love and the most joyous to the soul (see 1 Nephi 11:23).

Additional Information

Charity is “the pure love of Christ,” or “everlasting love” (Moroni 7:47; 8:17). The prophet Mormon taught: “Charity suffereth long, and is kind, and envieth not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things” (Moroni 7:45; see also 1 Corinthians 13:4-7).

Jesus Christ is the perfect example of charity. In His mortal ministry, He always “went about doing good,” teaching the gospel and showing tender compassion for the poor, afflicted, and distressed (see Matthew 4:23; Mark 6:6; Acts 10:38). His crowning expression of charity was His infinite Atonement. He said, “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends” (John 15:13). This was the greatest act of long-suffering, kindness, and selflessness that we will ever know.

The Savior wants all people to receive His love and to share it with others. He declared to His disciples: “A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another” (John 13:34-35). In relationships with family members and others, followers of Christ look to the Savior as their example and strive to love as He loves, with unfailing compassion, patience, and mercy.

[peteolcott]

Charity is much more than generous actions or donations to aid the poor.

Here is what it says at lds.org:

Charity is the pure love of Christ. It is the love that Christ has for the children of men and that the children of men should have for one another. It is the highest, noblest, and strongest kind of love and the most joyous to the soul (see 1 Nephi 11:23).

Additional Information

Charity is “the pure love of Christ,” or “everlasting love” (Moroni 7:47; 8:17). The prophet Mormon taught: “Charity suffereth long, and is kind, and envieth not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things” (Moroni 7:45; see also 1 Corinthians 13:4-7).

Jesus Christ is the perfect example of charity. In His mortal ministry, He always “went about doing good,” teaching the gospel and showing tender compassion for the poor, afflicted, and distressed (see Matthew 4:23; Mark 6:6; Acts 10:38). His crowning expression of charity was His infinite Atonement. He said, “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends” (John 15:13). This was the greatest act of long-suffering, kindness, and selflessness that we will ever know.

The Savior wants all people to receive His love and to share it with others. He declared to His disciples: “A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another” (John 13:34-35). In relationships with family members and others, followers of Christ look to the Savior as their example and strive to love as He loves, with unfailing compassion, patience, and mercy.

That is very excellent. So the LDS conception attached to the English word "charity" is (what seems to me to be) a perfect conception of what God has intended.

Also the LDS convention of saying {the pure love of Christ} very often when the word charity is read hits the mark.

The common meaning of the English word "charity" however, does not come very close to the mark. Even the common meaning of the English word "love" gets closer. Neither of these single words, however are as apt as the LDS convention of saying "the pure love of Christ" whenever the English word "charity" is read.

Perhaps now we may be in the same spirit on this one?

[volgadon]

The common meaning of the English word "charity" is actually closer to the original idea than is the definition of love as mainly a "profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person."

[peteolcott]

The common meaning of the English word "charity" is actually closer to the original idea than is the definition of love as mainly a "profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person."

Whatever is confirmed by the spirit is truth. If that is what the spirit confirms for you, then that is the truth for you. The reason that I remain with the LDS is that receptiveness to the Holy Spirit is their strongest strength.

I currently have the testimony that the LDS church is the most righteous church on Earth.

[Tyler90AZ]

Charity is much more than generous actions or donations to aid the poor.

Here is what it says at lds.org:

Charity is the pure love of Christ. It is the love that Christ has for the children of men and that the children of men should have for one another. It is the highest, noblest, and strongest kind of love and the most joyous to the soul (see 1 Nephi 11:23).

Additional Information

Charity is “the pure love of Christ,” or “everlasting love” (Moroni 7:47; 8:17). The prophet Mormon taught: “Charity suffereth long, and is kind, and envieth not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things” (Moroni 7:45; see also 1 Corinthians 13:4-7).

Jesus Christ is the perfect example of charity. In His mortal ministry, He always “went about doing good,” teaching the gospel and showing tender compassion for the poor, afflicted, and distressed (see Matthew 4:23; Mark 6:6; Acts 10:38). His crowning expression of charity was His infinite Atonement. He said, “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends” (John 15:13). This was the greatest act of long-suffering, kindness, and selflessness that we will ever know.

The Savior wants all people to receive His love and to share it with others. He declared to His disciples: “A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another” (John 13:34-35). In relationships with family members and others, followers of Christ look to the Savior as their example and strive to love as He loves, with unfailing compassion, patience, and mercy.

I have read Moroni 7:45 many times, but never interpreted how I am now. Prior to reading it now, I thought charity was just actions. In the sense of perform charity and be charitable. But now it has become clear it is a state of mind. It is not just when you are doing something nice for Mrs. sweet elderly lady it is who you are.

Sorry to derail the thread again, carry on.

[Guest]

I have read Moroni 7:45 many times, but never interpreted how I am now. Prior to reading it now, I thought charity was just actions. In the sense of perform charity and be charitable. But now it has become clear it is a state of mind. It is not just when you are doing something nice for Mrs. sweet elderly lady it is who you are.

Sorry to derail the thread again, carry on.

Yes, yes! You see what I see when I say Charity as the kind of love that we need to have for our spouse... not just this warm, passionate, giddy feeling!

[pam]

Yes, yes! You see what I see when I say Charity as the kind of love that we need to have for our spouse... not just this warm, passionate, giddy feeling!

And here I thought he was responding to what I had posted from lds.org.

[Guest]

And here I thought he was responding to what I had posted from lds.org.

Yeah, that too.

[Dravin]

You can lose the presence of God, or lose the companionship of the Holy Spirit - but are there any scriptures that say you lose God's love? ...

Well, God hates Esau according to the scriptures (Romans 9:13, Malachi 1:1), Psalm 11:5 attributes hate of him who loves violence. That's kinda beside my point though, unconditional love consist of two components (well flip sides of the same component), no condition upon which the love is given and no condition upon which it is taken away. Saying, "God loved us first." doesn't satisfy both sides of that particular coin. Note I'm not arguing that God's love is conditional, all I'm saying is, "He loved us first." doesn't demonstrate such.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Dravin

[Seminarysnoozer]

It might be the case that the best way to translate the Greek word [agape] is the way that most LDS say {the pure Love of Christ}.

charity

1. generous actions or donations to aid the poor, ill, or helpless: to devote one's life to charity.

love

1. a profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person.

How one defines Mormon religious terminology in part depends on one's belief in the power of seership. Having had and currently having Seers in our religion allows the shedding of light as to the definition, beyond the common usage of the word. Whenever translating words are involved there is always a chance to misuse a word or not have it fit directly into the sentence structure as it was originally given. So a Seer is necessary to shed light on the actual intended meaning of words. Going back to the dictionary or the common usage of the word, even in a historical context, may take it further away from the intended meaning.

For example, in English we may say "That doesn't work." But is the intended meaning of "work", labor or function? Someone who doesn't use English regularly may not appreciate the difference and be confused over its intended meaning. If translated to Portuguese, for example, one might say "Nao da" which directly could be translated as; "that doesn't give", even though the intention is, 'that doesn't work' and in the right context, "Nao da" would mean exactly that, 'It doesn't give" as opposed to "it doesn't work". So, the context is also important as well as the intent. These are things that Seers can provide. When one has a strong testimony of the power of a Seer, then those definitions take precedence over the common or simpler definitions.

[peteolcott]

Charity is much more than generous actions or donations to aid the poor.

Here is what it says at lds.org:

Charity is the pure love of Christ. It is the love that Christ has for the children of men and that the children of men should have for one another. It is the highest, noblest, and strongest kind of love and the most joyous to the soul (see 1 Nephi 11:23).

Additional Information

Charity is “the pure love of Christ,” or “everlasting love” (Moroni 7:47; 8:17). The prophet Mormon taught: “Charity suffereth long, and is kind, and envieth not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things” (Moroni 7:45; see also 1 Corinthians 13:4-7).

Jesus Christ is the perfect example of charity. In His mortal ministry, He always “went about doing good,” teaching the gospel and showing tender compassion for the poor, afflicted, and distressed (see Matthew 4:23; Mark 6:6; Acts 10:38). His crowning expression of charity was His infinite Atonement. He said, “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends” (John 15:13). This was the greatest act of long-suffering, kindness, and selflessness that we will ever know.

The Savior wants all people to receive His love and to share it with others. He declared to His disciples: “A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another” (John 13:34-35). In relationships with family members and others, followers of Christ look to the Savior as their example and strive to love as He loves, with unfailing compassion, patience, and mercy.

Moroni 7:47

47 But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth

forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it

shall be well with him.

Taking the bible by itself (as most all non-LDS do) The above perfect meaning of the Greek word {agape} is not nearly so clear.

For the sake of people new to the church that are not intimately aware of the above verse, it may be better to always provide the meaning {the pure love of Christ} the first time that the English word "charity" is ever read. otherwise the common meaning may be taken as the intended meaning:

1. generous actions or donations to aid the poor, ill, or helpless: to devote one's life to charity.

For the most part I have found that most all of my LDS friends always already do this.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Moroni 7:47

47 But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth

forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it

shall be well with him.

Taking the bible by itself (as most all non-LDS do) The above perfect meaning of the Greek word {agape} is not nearly so clear.

For the sake of people new to the church that are not intimately aware of the above verse, it may be better to always provide the meaning {the pure love of Christ} the first time that the English word "charity" is ever read. otherwise the common meaning may be taken as the intended meaning:

1. generous actions or donations to aid the poor, ill, or helpless: to devote one's life to charity.

For the most part I have found that most all of my LDS friends always already do this.

It is difficult to find "perfect" descriptions of many words in the scripture and when discussing gospel concepts, not just the word 'charity'. Intelligence, spirit, body, soul, 'hardening of the heart', 'obscuring the right eye', stiffnecked, fallen, children, Father, etc. etc. This is why understanding these terms is not just in a definition but done with prayerful consideration. ... and as far as I am aware, this is part of the first instructions given to those investigating this religion, to do it in prayer.

[jayanna]

Interestingly on this topic, this week our Bishop suggested that we read the description of charity found in Corinthians, and in the Book of Mormon, and insert our name every where we see the word charity.

When we see the people who are downtrodden (which can be people who are rich in worldly things too sometimes) and our heart is moved in compassion towards them, first we feel that pure love, identifying them as one of God's children, and then we act on that feeling. In order to truly know how to help them we use revelation from the Holy Spirit to know what they need, or what we have/can do to truly help, and then we act on it.

Any action, any commitment we make and stick to, should come from an inward feeling, not just a status situation, or for appearances. But, if you do at first only help someone out of obligation, you should continue, and then the love will come later, after you have learned the 'why' behind what you are doing. All of the commandments we are given have a 'why' behind them and are not just temporal laws. The Pharisees, for example, during Jesus time on the Earth had all these laws, and they were very concerned about keeping all of the letters of these laws very specifically, but had lost the 'why'. The Lord reminded them that the first commandment is to Love God, the second is to Love each other...and all of the laws hang upon those two. Love is the 'why' behind our devotion. Why do we do the things we are asked to? To get God to love us? nope, He already does, and He has already proved it, for God so loved the world, etc. We do in order to show Him that we love Him back...If ye love me, keep my commandments....If ye love me, feed my sheep...By this shall men know ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another....

I think that the message you recieved from the Spirit might not have necessarily been to teach us or correct us, but rather that it is time to share your testimony. When we recieve a testimony of the truthfulness of the gospel, we are excited and want to share it. It is great, it is wonderful, and it is another example of that Love of Christ to want to share it with the world. I think you have been prompted to share your testimony. I answer your words with a challenge, time to move from talking the talk to walking the walk. Time to get baptized my friend. Pray about that one, and let others know your answer. Baptism is an outward expression of an inward commitment just like love is. I hope you continue to recognize and act on those precious promptings. Congratulations!

[skalenfehl]

Regarding revelation

D&C 107

91 And again, the duty of the President of the office of the High Priesthood is to preside over the whole church, and to be like unto Moses—

While there is only one presiding high priest who speaks for the church, we are all prophets, if we received a testimony of truth by the power of the Holy Ghost (i.e. Moroni 10:3-5)

Revelations 19

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Numbers 11

24 ¶And Moses went out, and told the people the words of the Lord, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them round about the tabernacle.

25 And the Lord came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.

26 But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.

27 And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.

28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.

29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!

Enos 1

21 And it came to pass that the people of Nephi did till the land, and raise all manner of grain, and of fruit, and flocks of herds, and flocks of all manner of cattle of every kind, and goats, and wild goats, and also many horses.

22 And there were exceedingly many prophets among us. And the people were a stiffnecked people, hard to understand.

23 And there was nothing save it was exceeding harshness, preaching and prophesying of wars, and contentions, and destructions, and continually reminding them of death, and the duration of eternity, and the judgments and the power of God, and all these things—stirring them up continually to keep them in the fear of the Lord. I say there was nothing short of these things, and exceedingly great plainness of speech, would keep them from going down speedily to destruction. And after this manner do I write concerning them.