Polygamy

[Snow]

Okay, but my question still remains: Did the Mormon Church give the command because of pressure from the United States government, or did the Mormon Church receive revelation from God to cease this practice?

You act as if the two are mutually exclusive.

How do you figure?

[CrimsonKairos]

Good point Snow.

[blazius]

<div class='quotemain'>

Okay, but my question still remains: Did the Mormon Church give the command because of pressure from the United States government, or did the Mormon Church receive revelation from God to cease this practice?

You act as if the two are mutually exclusive.

How do you figure?

well look, it seems awfully convenient to an outsider that the Mormon Church would suddenly receive a revelation that polygamy is no longer required at the same time Mormons were being persecuted by the government for practicing it. You have to admit it looks suspicious.

Read the official declaration on polygamy in the Doctrine & Covenants. Your questions are answered there. What you do with the answers is up to you.

I have just done a search for polygamy and then read through D&C 132 and have found some curious statements regarding the plurality of wives. Here are a couple of verses of interest to me:

Verse 3 says: Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.

According to this verse all practicing Mormons are required to participate in polygamy, right? Why is it required? It seems the following verse explains:

For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory (132:4).

To me, this verse is saying that polygamy is required to enter into the glory of the Lord. And in all reality if a practicing Mormon does not enter into the covenant of polygamy verse 4 states that the Mormon is damned. Verse 6 also states the same. Right?

Again, when I read down to D&C 132:21, it reiterates what was stated in verse 4:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory.

So here is what I find fascinating: Mormons today condemn the practice of polygamy, yet the D&C states in section 132 that if polygamy isn’t practiced, you cannot attain to the glory of God. So, should I be practicing polygamy like some of the fundamental LDS groups are doing?

Am I reading and understanding this correct? If I am not please tell me why…

One of the things that an outsider finds so strange about Mormonism is this polygamous issue, and once for all I would like to understand it from its true perspective.

thank you,

blazius

[Snow]

well look, it seems awfully convenient to an outsider that the Mormon Church would suddenly receive a revelation that polygamy is no longer required at the same time Mormons were being persecuted by the government for practicing it. You have to admit it looks suspicious.

It seems convenient and that's your argument?

Hardly seems worth the bother to respond. What if God thought it fine and dandy to do away with polygamy for years but no one put the time and effort into it to sincerely know the Lord's will? Then finally, when the Church's very existence was threatened, then the prophet sincerely and intenting petitioned the Lord to have an answer, without his (the prophet's) own biases inserted?

We in the LDS Church believe that we have to seek the Lord's mind. We aren't passive, empty vessels waiting to be filled with God's light. We are active participant in His grand designs. He blesses those who seek him.

[Outshined]

<div class='quotemain'>

Spoken like a single man, I'd say. Sex is a very small part of marriage; you have to get along with them the other 99.9% of the time as well....

Speaking as a married man, I'd say sex is a very big part of marriage.

It may have a lot of importance within the marriage, but as a reason to get married?

[CrimsonKairos]

According to this verse all practicing Mormons are required to participate in polygamy, right? Why is it required? It seems the following verse explains:

For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory (132:4).

Firstly, the gospel as it has been restored through Joseph Smith and subsequent prophets comprises "the new and everlasting covenant." Within it are several specific "new and everlasting covenants," but to say that polygamy = THE everlasting covenant is an oversimplification and an error. What these verses are saying is that once you have been taught the truth--the gospel--and understand it and refuse to live its laws, you cannot enter into God's presence. Blessings are predicated upon obedience to God's law, whether that law relate to tithing, baptism, etc...

Secondly, if you study the history of polygamy in the LDS Church (and read all of D&C 132 carefully) you will find that the pattern is for the prophet to reveal/authorize polygamous marriages. The prophets (Nathan, for one) sealed/presided over the polygamous marriages of David/Solomon (D&C 132:38-39). God commands men to practice polygamy; they either obey and are blessed, or they refuse and forfeit exaltation.

So your interpretation that D&C 132 somehow declares that all faithful members of the LDS Church must be polygamists is completely off the mark.

What D&C 132 says--among other things--is that if God commands a man to practice polygamy, and if God commands that man's wife to allow him to practice polygamy, and if one or both of them refuse, they cannot enter into God's kingdom. It's not a new concept or anything. It's simple, really: When God commands, we obey and are blessed or we disobey and forfeit blessings, whether in terms of the law of polygamy, tithing, baptism, etc...

You're really reading too much into this issue. Polygamy is a law which God can require His servants to live or conversely, not require them to live. As of 2006, He happens to not require His servants to live it. If that changes in my lifetime, so be it. If not, so be it. Be it unto me according to the Lord's will. Is that attitude so hard to understand? Is it really that fascinating? It's simple submission to God and integration of His will in our hearts and minds.

[blazius]

<div class='quotemain'>

According to this verse all practicing Mormons are required to participate in polygamy, right? Why is it required? It seems the following verse explains:

For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory (132:4).

Firstly, the gospel as it has been restored through Joseph Smith and subsequent prophets comprises "the new and everlasting covenant." Within it are several specific "new and everlasting covenants," but to say that polygamy = THE everlasting covenant is an oversimplification and an error. What these verses are saying is that once you have been taught the truth--the gospel--and understand it and refuse to live its laws, you cannot enter into God's presence. Blessings are predicated upon obedience to God's law, whether that law relate to tithing, baptism, etc...

Secondly, if you study the history of polygamy in the LDS Church (and read all of D&C 132 carefully) you will find that the pattern is for the prophet to reveal/authorize polygamous marriages. The prophets (Nathan, for one) sealed/presided over the polygamous marriages of David/Solomon (D&C 132:38-39). God commands men to practice polygamy; they either obey and are blessed, or they refuse and forfeit exaltation.

So your interpretation that D&C 132 somehow declares that all faithful members of the LDS Church must be polygamists is completely off the mark.

What D&C 132 says--among other things--is that if God commands a man to practice polygamy, and if God commands that man's wife to allow him to practice polygamy, and if one or both of them refuse, they cannot enter into God's kingdom. It's not a new concept or anything. It's simple, really: When God commands, we obey and are blessed or we disobey and forfeit blessings, whether in terms of the law of polygamy, tithing, baptism, etc...

You're really reading too much into this issue. Polygamy is a law which God can require His servants to live or conversely, not require them to live. As of 2006, He happens to not require His servants to live it. If that changes in my lifetime, so be it. If not, so be it. Be it unto me according to the Lord's will. Is that attitude so hard to understand? Is it really that fascinating? It's simple submission to God and integration of His will in our hearts and minds.

FINALLY!!! A SUBSTANTIVE ANSWER!!!!!

Thank you very much for your well thought out answer, and I have considered everything you’ve stated. I will re-read D&C 132 with your post in mind.

blazius

[Jason]

My great great grandfather and his family were living polygamy by commandment. His personal journal on the subject is most interesting. First - He never sought a second wife but only took a second wife by commandment. Second - He indicated that most of the polygamy of the early LDS was adulterous because the multiple wives were sought out side of commandment.

You're great-great grandaddy was wrong. There was a blanket commandment from the pulpit at General Conference for EVERYONE to live polygamy. The 2-5 percent who actually did live polygamy were the only one's actually "following the prophet".

Documentation will be provided upon request.

[Snow]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

Spoken like a single man, I'd say. Sex is a very small part of marriage; you have to get along with them the other 99.9% of the time as well....

Speaking as a married man, I'd say sex is a very big part of marriage.

It may have a lot of importance within the marriage, but as a reason to get married?

Absolutely. I didn't ask my would be wife to marry me 2 hours into our first date because I was not physically attracted to her.

[Snow]

<div class='quotemain'>

According to this verse all practicing Mormons are required to participate in polygamy, right? Why is it required? It seems the following verse explains:

For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory (132:4).

Firstly, the gospel as it has been restored through Joseph Smith and subsequent prophets comprises "the new and everlasting covenant." Within it are several specific "new and everlasting covenants," but to say that polygamy = THE everlasting covenant is an oversimplification and an error. What these verses are saying is that once you have been taught the truth--the gospel--and understand it and refuse to live its laws, you cannot enter into God's presence. Blessings are predicated upon obedience to God's law, whether that law relate to tithing, baptism, etc...

Secondly, if you study the history of polygamy in the LDS Church (and read all of D&C 132 carefully) you will find that the pattern is for the prophet to reveal/authorize polygamous marriages. The prophets (Nathan, for one) sealed/presided over the polygamous marriages of David/Solomon (D&C 132:38-39). God commands men to practice polygamy; they either obey and are blessed, or they refuse and forfeit exaltation.

So your interpretation that D&C 132 somehow declares that all faithful members of the LDS Church must be polygamists is completely off the mark.

What D&C 132 says--among other things--is that if God commands a man to practice polygamy, and if God commands that man's wife to allow him to practice polygamy, and if one or both of them refuse, they cannot enter into God's kingdom. It's not a new concept or anything. It's simple, really: When God commands, we obey and are blessed or we disobey and forfeit blessings, whether in terms of the law of polygamy, tithing, baptism, etc...

You're really reading too much into this issue. Polygamy is a law which God can require His servants to live or conversely, not require them to live. As of 2006, He happens to not require His servants to live it. If that changes in my lifetime, so be it. If not, so be it. Be it unto me according to the Lord's will. Is that attitude so hard to understand? Is it really that fascinating? It's simple submission to God and integration of His will in our hearts and minds.

Okay... but until after the turn of the last century the Brethren believed and taught that the new and everlasting covenant - requisite for admission to the highest kingdom of heaven meant plural marriage, without which you were out in the cold - eternally.

[LionHeart]

One thing to realize about section 132 of the D&C is that it begins with these words:

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines—

2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.

3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.

4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

I understand this to mean that this section was given in regards to the doctrine of plural marriage. Or as Snow said, the new and everlasting covenant. Why would the Lord say "I will answer thee concerning the doctrine of my servants having many wives." and then proceed to give him something completely different?

Another thing I might point out concerning this section is that this revelation is what Joseph Smith presented to Emma in order to convince her of the doctrine of plural marriage. If it was something else, then why did he present it to her to convince her of the doctrine; and why did she get upset and nearly throw him out of the room?

People can pick it apart and try to prove that it is referring to something else but when you know the history behind it, you will understand exactly what it is referring to.

L.H.

[CrimsonKairos]

I never said D&C 132 doesn't refer to plural marriage. I said that plural marriage is not THE new and everlasting covenant. Plural marriage is AN new and everlasting covenant, but not the only one. In other words, I was informing blazius that there's not just one new and everlasting covenant called polygamy. The restored gospel is the new and everlasting covenant, and it contains several everlasting covenants within it.

Of course the bulk of Section 132 deals with plural marriage.

[blazius]

Of course the bulk of Section 132 deals with plural marriage.

Okay, CrimsonKairos, I have re-read D&C 132 but I still cannot seem to get past verse 4 that CLEARLY states those who reject the covenant of plural marriage cannot enter into the glory of God (heaven).

You stated that this covenant is a command for Mormon men and women to obey in the next life, but this is plainly not in the text. How do you arrive at your interpretation that the command to live polygamy is in the afterlife?

Also, on this same note, would the Mormon Church also say that if I refuse to live polygamy in the next life that I cannot enter heaven?

thanks for the dialogue,

blazius

[CrimsonKairos]

Yes, verse four and others state that if God--through the prophet--commands someone to live the law of plural marriage, and they refuse, they cannot enter into His kingdom. As I said, it's obey and prosper, or refuse and miss out. I don't see why this concept puzzles you.

Where did I say that polygamy is to be lived in the afterlife?

[blazius]

Yes, verse four and others state that if God--through the prophet--commands someone to live the law of plural marriage, and they refuse, they cannot enter into His kingdom. As I said, it's obey and prosper, or refuse and miss out. I don't see why this concept puzzles you.

Well, it puzzles me for the same reason the world finds the teachings of the Mormon Church so strange and foreign to fundamental Christianity.

Think about it from an outsider’s perspective: The Mormon Church is stating that if you don’t accept the command to live polygamy in the afterlife then you cannot go to heaven. Don’t you think this sounds extremely bazaar to someone on the outside?

Seriously, if I am commanded to obey the principle to have mulitple wives for all eternity, why does that sound appealing? I thought heaven was all about paradise!

Thanks,

blazius

[CrimsonKairos]

Heaven is for those who have partaken of God's divine nature and learned to think and live as He does. Isaiah 55:9 is something to keep in mind when you discount plural marriage as something approved by God.

[blazius]

Heaven is for those who have partaken of God's divine nature and learned to think and live as He does. Isaiah 55:9 is something to keep in mind when you discount plural marriage as something approved by God.

Isaiah 55:9 has nothing whatsoever to do with plural marriage and attempting to apply it to polygamy would contradict the rest of the bible.

I have read through the bible and studied it with a fine-toothed comb and have found nothing that supports the practice of polygamy in eternity. What I have found is that those who did practice polygamy (David and Abraham, for example) did not receive blessings from the Lord for doing it. In fact, not once have I found a command for anyone in the bible to take mulitple wives, but rather those who did were chastized by God.

Do you care to comment on this?

thanks,

blazius

[CrimsonKairos]

I get dizzy after running in circles for too long. I wasn't saying Isaiah 55:9 specifically talks about plural marriage. I was suggesting that just because we with our finite minds can't believe that God would have a place for plural marriage in eternity doesn't mean He doesn't. In fact, Isaiah also says that eyes haven't seen and ears haven't heard neither has entered into the heart of man what awaits those who will dwell with God eternally.

Anyway, you apparently didn't read my previous post in the "Created from the dust" thread where I suggested that just because something isn't in the Bible doesn't mean it has to be false. The Jews in Christ's day viewed everything through the lens of the Old Testament, and in so doing, rejected Christianity because of all of the "contradictions" between what Jesus taught and what Moses taught (or what they interpreted Moses to have taught).

[Snow]

I never said D&C 132 doesn't refer to plural marriage. I said that plural marriage is not THE new and everlasting covenant.

That is the Church's current position but that wasn't the understanding prior to the turn of the 19th century.

[Snow]

Isaiah 55:9 has nothing whatsoever to do with plural marriage and attempting to apply it to polygamy would contradict the rest of the bible.

I don't think that is true. I think you are just making it up and can't support such a notion.

I have read through the bible and studied it with a fine-toothed comb and have found nothing that supports the practice of polygamy in eternity.

With all due respect to your comb - we don't use your reading of the bible as our standard of eternal truth.

What I have found is that those who did practice polygamy (David and Abraham, for example) did not receive blessings from the Lord for doing it. In fact, not once have I found a command for anyone in the bible to take mulitple wives, but rather those who did were chastized by God.

I think you are making that up to.

What proof do you have for such a bold claim? In as much as you are making the claim, it is your duty to demonstrate it.

[LionHeart]

<div class='quotemain'>

Heaven is for those who have partaken of God's divine nature and learned to think and live as He does. Isaiah 55:9 is something to keep in mind when you discount plural marriage as something approved by God.

Isaiah 55:9 has nothing whatsoever to do with plural marriage and attempting to apply it to polygamy would contradict the rest of the bible.

I have read through the bible and studied it with a fine-toothed comb and have found nothing that supports the practice of polygamy in eternity. What I have found is that those who did practice polygamy (David and Abraham, for example) did not receive blessings from the Lord for doing it. In fact, not once have I found a command for anyone in the bible to take mulitple wives, but rather those who did were chastized by God.

Do you care to comment on this?

thanks,

blazius

I have a comment: Jacob, who is Israel, was blessed with twelve sons who were from more than one wife. Each son became the father of a tribe in Israel. I would consider that a blessing. In fact the greatest of his sons, Joseph, came from his second wife.

L.H.

[Maureen]

Well, it puzzles me for the same reason the world finds the teachings of the Mormon Church so strange and foreign to fundamental Christianity.

And what would you know blazius about fundamental Christianity?

M.

[Snow]

Think about it from an outsider’s perspective: The Mormon Church is stating that if you don’t accept the command to live polygamy in the afterlife then you cannot go to heaven.

You're making that up too.

Why?

[Fiannan]

have read through the bible and studied it with a fine-toothed comb and have found nothing that supports the practice of polygamy in eternity. What I have found is that those who did practice polygamy (David and Abraham, for example) did not receive blessings from the Lord for doing it. In fact, not once have I found a command for anyone in the bible to take mulitple wives, but rather those who did were chastized by God.

Actually I can think of two instances where polygamy was REQUIRED of a man. In the Mosaic Law if a man's brother died, and his wife had not had children with him, the brother (even if married already) was expected to take his sister in law as a wife and provide her children. In another case if a married man were fooling around with an unmarried woman then (if caught) he had to take her as a wife -- and he could not divorce her.

Nathan told David that God had blessed him with 6 wives and that it was an abomination what he had done to make Bathsheba available to him.

Polygamy has always been a thorn in Romanized/Hellenized Christianity in that to say polygamy is a sin means important prophets of the Old Testament were guilty of adultery. To say it isn't a sin would undercut Romanized/Hellenized Christianity's foundations and make Chritianity more akin to its Jewish roots.

Mormonism solves this problem quite well.

[blazius]

<div class='quotemain'>

Isaiah 55:9 has nothing whatsoever to do with plural marriage and attempting to apply it to polygamy would contradict the rest of the bible.

I don't think that is true. I think you are just making it up and can't support such a notion.

Snow, I am not making this up and your charge is baseless. For example, I have found that Matthew 22:30 says, “For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.”

Jesus seems to be strikingly clear here that when a man dies he is not required to live in any matrimonial affair because man will be like the angels who are not given in marriage.

Now, if you try to use Isaiah 55:9 as support for plural marriage then that would contradict Matt 22:30.

Do you care to discuss the support I have provided for this blatant contradiction?

What I have found is that those who did practice polygamy (David and Abraham, for example) did not receive blessings from the Lord for doing it. In fact, not once have I found a command for anyone in the bible to take mulitple wives, but rather those who did were chastized by God.

I think you are making that up to.

What proof do you have for such a bold claim? In as much as you are making the claim, it is your duty to demonstrate it.

It can be demonstrated by reading the life of David. Go ahead, read through each time David took a wife and you’ll see that chastisement and discipline came as a result of polygamy.

Again, read through the account of Abraham’s polygamy and the problems he had because he took a second wife. He had absolutely no blessings whatsoever because of his adulteress affair with Hagar and in fact, was stricken to the heart with grief for his unauthorized sexual union with her.

Snow, do you care to have a discourse with me or are you just going to point your finger and yell, “prove it” all day?

Thanks,

blazius