Mormons walking in Gay pride parade in SLC

[JesusParadox]

Just because there are those who choose not to march in gay pride parades, does not mean they 'love their neighbor' one iota less than those who do march. That's not a judgment we can make.

I apologize for the misunderstanding. :) My intention was not to falsely excuse anybody of not loving their neighbor. I am sure that all of you love your neighbors as Jesus commanded. They just choose to manifest their love for their neighbors in a different way. It just so happens I agree with them and you disagree. That in no way means they or I are better then anyone. Trust me I am the least of the Saints sister...

[LittleWyvern]

Just because there are those who choose not to march in gay pride parades, does not mean they 'love their neighbor' one iota less than those who do march. That's not a judgment we can make.

And thus, conversely, Mormons participating in this parade may only be trying to say "hey, let's try not to be jerks to each other" instead of purposefully undermining the Church's teaching or outright apostasy or anything else that is easy to assume. There's a nature vs. person distinction that I've tried to make before: accepting a gay person is entirely different than accepting a gay lifestyle/gay marriage/equal civil rights for gay people/etc.

[Just_A_Guy]

In a similar vein . . .

(Apologies if this is repetitive; but I don't think I've seen it come up yet on LDS.net.)

[HEthePrimate]

Would these Latter-day Saints have attended an Bestiality Pride Parade, which extols the virtues of sex with their dogs and horses? I mean, such people are our neighbors, so we should love them. Right? If they define themselves by their sexuality and run a parade through town, why shouldn't everyone go support them in their quest for equal treatment and in their taking pride in their natural, God-given desires?

Gay rights have nothing to do with bestiality. This is a straw horse argument (no pun intended).

[Vort]

Gay rights have nothing to do with bestiality. This is a straw horse argument (no pun intended).

No, it is not a straw man argument. (And obviously your sadly unfunny pun was intended.) The comparison is perfectly valid.

Quit hiding behind false allegations of "straw man" and point out why you would not join in a Bestiality Pride Parade to support all your friends who like having sex with animals. Because it is EXACTLY THE SAME PRINCIPLE as joining a Gay Pride Parade to support all your friends who enjoy having sex with people of their own sex.

[NadiaStar]

It's a fine line for me, but I think I lean toward's Vort's opinion. I have a few family members, friends, and even a best friend who is homosexual. I love them very much and would never condemn them personally, but for me I'd rather stick to my values and let them have theirs. I believe I can support and love them without attending a parade.

As for what Vort is saying, if I am going to support and celebrate my friends and family no matter what their sexual interests might be, it would be hypocritical to attend a Gay Pride parade for my gay friends but not a Bestiality Pride parade for those animal-loving friends.

(is that what you're getting at, Vort?)

[annewandering]

No, it is not a straw man argument. (And obviously your sadly unfunny pun was intended.) The comparison is perfectly valid.

Quit hiding behind false allegations of "straw man" and point out why you would not join in a Bestiality Pride Parade to support all your friends who like having sex with animals. Because it is EXACTLY THE SAME PRINCIPLE as joining a Gay Pride Parade to support all your friends who enjoy having sex with people of their own sex.

I agree. Both are abominations according to the bible. We see so much of it now, though, so the shock has lessened. Familiarity was the goal and they have reached it. The stats on the link posted were very telling. People WAY over estimate the number of homosexual people. My guess is that they do because of the constant media exposure we have to it. If we watch tv shows we see so many who are gay. It stands to reason there must be a lot more gay people than we thought before. Right? Since there are so many it stands to reason that it must be natural. If its natural then its bigoted to oppose it. Twisted but if you dont actually think about it how can you deny it?

[Vort]

It's a fine line for me, but I think I lean toward's Vort's opinion. I have a few family members, friends, and even a best friend who is homosexual. I love them very much and would never condemn them personally, but for me I'd rather stick to my values and let them have theirs. I believe I can support and love them without attending a parade.

As for what Vort is saying, if I am going to support and celebrate my friends and family no matter what their sexual interests might be, it would be hypocritical to attend a Gay Pride parade for my gay friends but not a Bestiality Pride parade for those animal-loving friends.

(is that what you're getting at, Vort?)

More or less.

Specifically, those who self-identify as homosexuals are defining themselves based on their sexual preferences, just as those who self-identify as zoophiles. So logically, if you are going to show public support for those who self-identify as "homosexuals" by attending or joining a Gay Rights Parade, you should also show public support for those who self-identify as "zoophiles" by attending or joining a Bestiality Rights Parade.

[NadiaStar]

I just see a lot of hypocrisy in the gay movement that way. We want to be free to love whomever we want, they say, but how dare you love an animal, want to marry more than one person, etc (note that I am not saying those are okay, just tyring to make a point). What makes the homosexuals so much superior than these others?

[JesusParadox]

Well, for one, bestiality is illegal. For two, bestiality involves subjecting something not of its own free will. There is no comparison between a gay pride parade and a bestiality parade.

There would, however, be a comparison between a gay pride parade and a Mormon pioneer parade(anything of that sort). Even further a good comparison would be between gay pride and mormon.org ad campaign. It must be stated, that I do agree with both of those things.

If we want respect towards our religious endeavors, then we must respect other people. There are many gays and others who strongly dislike our religion. Although that does not stop us from running our ads and throwing our celebrations. The golden rule comes to mind, "treat others how you want to be treated." This paragraph deals with not being upset about them throwing a gay pride parade or identifying themselves as gay.

Then, off course, we get back to the Latter-day Saints who participated in the parade. I still don't understand how they are undermining the church. On the contrary, they are showing the world one of our most important doctrines, which is love.

[Just_A_Guy]

Well, for one, bestiality is illegal. For two, bestiality involves subjecting something not of its own free will. There is no comparison between a gay pride parade and a bestiality parade.

In fairness, though: Vort's question isn't whether the behavior is legal or ethical; the question is whether publicly supporting those who indulge in such behavior is the functional equivalent of publicly supporting the behavior itself.

[Vort]

Well, for one, bestiality is illegal.

Irrelevant. That's purely a matter of definition. Bestiality wasn't illegal in ancient times. And until recently, homosexuality was.

For two, bestiality involves subjecting something not of its own free will.

Prove that the animal does not give consent.

Or better yet, let's have a parade for people who enjoy cutting each other and eating each other during sex. Will you proudly go march in that parade with your fellow beings who enjoy inflicting such torture and death on each other -- all fully under consent?

There is no comparison between a gay pride parade and a bestiality parade.

Of course there is. I made the comparison. Twisting around and denying the comparison is cowardly and dishonest. Explain why it's wrong to join the bestiality parade but okay to join the homosexuality parade.

There would, however, be a comparison between a gay pride parade and a Mormon pioneer parade(anything of that sort).

Sure. A gay pride parade and a self-immolation pride parade, or a crack smokers' parade, or a watching filthy porn parade. All are free choices, and all should be equally celebrated as wondrous expressions of the human spirit.

[Dravin]

In fairness, though: Vort's question isn't whether the behavior is legal or ethical; the question is whether publicly supporting those who indulge in such behavior is the functional equivalent of publicly supporting the behavior itself.

Yep. If participation in the parade is not condoning the behavior but just a show that you love and care for those who participate in the behavior as children of God then it doesn't matter what the behavior in question is, because you aren't condoning it. That one brings up the relative morality of the behaviors suggests there is the concern that participating in the parade would be condoning the behavior.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Dravin

[JesusParadox]

Vort, we must be in tune to the world around us. Would anybody condone a crack smoking or cutters parade? There is not a person in their right mind who would. In the case of a gay pride parade, almost half of the United States would support such a parade. That is why it is important we show love towards them. If we want to have an influence over people, in this case gays, we need to be tolerant. Them attending the parade, is simply a much needed expression of tolerance. I think after Prop 8 we need a little balancing out.

[NadiaStar]

I'll throw this question out to everyone: If you say you would attend a gay pride parade to show love for a friend or family member, would you or would you not attend a polygamy parade to show love for a friend or family member?

Edit:

I'll change this to include only polygamy. That involves consent of all parties.

[NadiaStar]

Vort, we must be in tune to the world around us. Would anybody condone a crack smoking or cutters parade? There is not a person in their right mind who would. In the case of a gay pride parade, almost half of the United States would support such a parade. That is why it is important we show love towards them. If we want to have an influence over people, in this case gays, we need to be tolerant. Them attending the parade, is simply a much needed expression of tolerance. I think after Prop 8 we need a little balancing out.

Lots of people support the people's right to smoke crack.

As for people's sexual weirdness, that also involves consent of all partners.

[Vort]

Vort, we must be in tune to the world around us. Would anybody condone a crack smoking or cutters parade?

Why not? Are cutters or crack smokers unworthy of our love and tolerance?

There is not a person in their right mind who would.

Then when you say that the purpose of a "Gay Pride Parade" is to support the person and not the action, you are lying. Because if it were the people you were supporting, you would rush to support a cutter's parade, a crack smoking parade, or any other parade named after a human condition.

In the case of a gay pride parade, almost half of the United States would support such a parade. That is why it is important we show love towards them.

So morality is up to a public vote?

Fifty years ago, not five percent would have supported a Gay Pride Parade. So are you saying that the Saints of fifty years ago would have been morally justified in condemning a Gay Pride Parade, but are not so now?

If, in fifty years, half the population thinks there is nothing wrong with having sex with animals, will you then concede that Mormons ought to be supporting a Bestiality Parade, as well?

If we want to have an influence over people, in this case gays, we need to be tolerant. Them attending the parade, is simply a much needed expression of tolerance. I think after Prop 8 we need a little balancing out.

So then, why should we avoid having tolerance for those who like animal sex?

[annewandering]

Vort, we must be in tune to the world around us. Would anybody condone a crack smoking or cutters parade? There is not a person in their right mind who would. In the case of a gay pride parade, almost half of the United States would support such a parade. That is why it is important we show love towards them. If we want to have an influence over people, in this case gays, we need to be tolerant. Them attending the parade, is simply a much needed expression of tolerance. I think after Prop 8 we need a little balancing out.

wow you could not have come up with an argument that would so much put me on the opposite side you are taking.

If 99% of the people in this country, or even all but me, marched for ANY cause would that make it ok and justifiable? Popularity has nothing whatsoever to do with anything being a good idea.

THIS is exactly what satan has been trying to convince us of!!

I do understand Pam wanting to let her son know she supports him as a son. Her case is individual and specific.

We can show love by not falling into the trap of saying "hey do what is 'good' for you no matter what God says.

I asked a friend if he thought I hated him because he is gay and I am LDS. He said no. And laughed. Then he said the important thing. He said you would never stand up and say gays should be hated, beaten or killed. In other words I would never hate them and try to hurt them. Now that is how I show my love for anyone not by dumping God by the wayside and accepting, even cheering on, things I know are wrong.

[JesusParadox]

Why not? Are cutters or crack smokers unworthy of our love and tolerance?

The interesting part is that many Latter-day Saint are at rehab centers and prisons trying to help crack smokers. That is showing tolerance much like attending a gay pride parade is showing a form of tolerance.

So morality is up to a public vote?

There is no connection between showing love to a group of people and putting morality up for a public vote.

Fifty years ago, not five percent would have supported a Gay Pride Parade. So are you saying that the Saints of fifty years ago would have been morally justified in condemning a Gay Pride Parade, but are not so now?

No.

If, in fifty years, half the population thinks there is nothing wrong with having sex with animals, will you then concede that Mormons ought to be supporting a Bestiality Parade, as well?

Love the sinner not the sin.

So then, why should we avoid having tolerance for those who like animal sex?

There is no need to show tolerance for people who are doing something against the law.

Vort, do you agree that we should be tolerant of gays? I am sure you do as the church teaches that. If that is the case, why should we not attend a parade? Attending a gay parade is basically an outward manifestation of what you support.

To not attend just because it is parade about taking pride in their lifestyle is not a good argument. They will hold the parade and live their lifestyle regardless. If not attending the parade would cause them to stop living that lifestyle; then it would be undermining the church. Since it does not stop them, we should have tolerance(love) towards our neighbors.

[annewandering]

The interesting part is that many Latter-day Saint are at rehab centers and prisons trying to help crack smokers. That is showing tolerance much like attending a gay pride parade is showing a form of tolerance.

There is no connection between showing love to a group of people and putting morality up for a public vote.

No.

Love the sinner not the sin.

There is no need to show tolerance for people who are doing something against the law.

Vort, do you agree that we should be tolerant of gays? I am sure you do as the church teaches that. If that is the case, why should we not attend a parade? Attending a gay parade is basically an outward manifestation of what you support.

To not attend just because it is parade about taking pride in their lifestyle is not a good argument. They will hold the parade and live their lifestyle regardless. If not attending the parade would cause them to stop living that lifestyle; then it would be undermining the church. Since it does not stop them, we should have tolerance(love) towards our neighbors.

No No and No. Even No. How can you even support your arguments? (Man I am beginning to feel like a Vort clone.)

Lets think here. Why should we support a parade condoning and even having pride in sin? I dont get why we should.

Why should we put on sheeps clothing and pretend like we think they are fine doing what they do? Love means being honest. Love means we rebuke, kindly, when we have stewardship and see the need. No where does love mean cheering a sinning person on, giving them the clear idea that we approve.

Edited June 7, 2012 by annewandering

[JesusParadox]

If 99% of the people in this country, or even all but me, marched for ANY cause would that make it ok and justifiable? Popularity has nothing whatsoever to do with anything being a good idea.

T

That is not at all what I saying. I was simply trying to emphasize a gay pride parade is an actuality and not a hypothetical.

[annewandering]

That is not at all what I saying. I was simply trying to emphasize a gay pride parade is an actuality and not a hypothetical.

Obviously I have no idea what you mean then because that makes no sense to me. Why would I think a gay PRIDE parade is hypothetical?

[Vort]

You have avoided answering almost every question. That is not honest of you, MasterOrator. If you truly are a master orator, as you claim, you will happily and completely respond to each of my points rather than dodge them.

The interesting part is that many Latter-day Saint are at rehab centers and prisons trying to help crack smokers. That is showing tolerance much like attending a gay pride parade is showing a form of tolerance.

Wrong. Staffing a center to rehab homosexuals and try to help repentent SSA sufferers is equivalent to staffing rehab centers and prisons. Attending a parade for Gay Pride is equivalent to attending a parade for cutters or crack smokers (or dog sex people) -- it's a glorification of the activity, not an affirmation of the underlying humanity.

If a "Gay Pride Parade" is merely an affirmation of homosexuals' underlying humanity and in no way a glorification of their perversion, then explain why a Dog Sex Pride Parade (or cutters parade, or crack smokers parade) is not exactly the same thing.

(HINT: Because the "Gay Pride Parade" is not merely an affirmation of humanity; it is a celebration of the perversion, just as surely as a crack smokers parade would be.)

There is no connection between showing love to a group of people and putting morality up for a public vote.

You claimed there was:

In the case of a gay pride parade, almost half of the United States would support such a parade. That is why it is important we show love towards them.

Note your logic: The REASON we should show love toward homosexual activity is BECAUSE half the country supports it.

No.

But why not? As you clearly claimed above, the REASON to support homosexuality is because it's now so popular. Why would the Saints of a couple of generations past not have been justified in condemning it, seeing as how it wasn't popular at that time?

Love the sinner not the sin.

Shame on you for dodging the question. Now answer it: If in fifty years people think sex with animals is wonderful, should the Saints at that time support a Bestiality Pride Parade?

There is no need to show tolerance for people who are doing something against the law.

Until very recently, homosex was against the law. So are you now saying that as long as homosexual conduct is illegal, we have no moral imperative to show tolerance for homosexuals? It's only when the homosexual conduct is made legal that we are obliged to show tolerance for it?

Please answer this question and do not just dodge it.

Vort, do you agree that we should be tolerant of gays? I am sure you do as the church teaches that.

I have never heard the Church teach "be tolerant of gays", so I don't even know what you mean. We should be tolerant of gays in the same sense that we should be tolerant of people with freckles and people with spiked hair and people with body odor and people with crack addictions and people who rape other people and people who use foul language and people who vote Democrat and people who ride motorcycles. We should be tolerant of people.

If that is the case, why should we not attend a parade? Attending a gay parade is basically an outward manifestation of what you support.

You have just answered your own question. We should never, ever, EVER support homosexuality. It is a grave and destructive sin. It is a practice that leads people away from God. It is spiritual death.

Attending a Gay Pride Parade is, as you say, showing support toward homosexuality. Such is exactly contrary to everything the gospel teaches. We should, of course, show tolerance to homosexuals on a personal basis. But showing tolerance to a smoker doesn't mean I let him smoke in my car. It also doesn't mean I fight against no-smoking laws in public places. I tolerate the smoker, because he's a human being, but I do not condone his actions and attend Smoker's Pride Parades.

And since homosex is approximately ten zillion times more destructive than smoking, I certainly don't attend Gay Pride Parades, either.

To not attend just because it is parade about taking pride in their lifestyle is not a good argument. They will hold the parade and live their lifestyle regardless.

Then WHY DON'T YOU WANT TO ATTEND THE BESTIALITY PRIDE PARADE? They will hold the parade and live their lifestyle regardless!

Your arguments are utterly meaningless. You are willing to apply them only to the specific case of homosexuality. You reject them in every other context by saying, "Well, that's different."

If not attending the parade would cause them to stop living that lifestyle; then it would be undermining the church.

How on earth do you possibly justify this statement?

Since it does not stop them, we should have tolerance(love) towards our neighbors.

Having tolerance (love) toward our neighbor who smokes or fornicates with prostitutes or has sex with his pooch or smokes crack or masturbates with razor blades does not mean we have any business attending and supporting parades that glorify those things.

[Soulsearcher]

I can kind of add strength to pams comments a bit. I look forward to pride because it's one of the few days i really don't have much fear. it's a day i can can go out and not really have to worry because i know the people around me aren't going to try to make me feel like crap or worse. i went to my first pride parade last year and the functions that followed and as i've said in the past i was almost let down by the total lack of shock value. Most of the floats were from different groups that were made up of gay and lesbian members (swimming clubs, dancers ect) a few political floats, a few religious floats and radio stations. While some of the outfits were possibly less than modest( speedo's for the swim club and a variety of outfits for the dancers, the drag queens were probably the best and most modestly dressed lol) I've seen worse from some of the NFL cheerleaders. After living so many years in fear and self loathing it was so refreshing to be able to just go and relax and not try to keep up a constant shield. I could just be me and not what others expected me to be. While i do see what people have against the parades i do think they miss why they are important. Yes they show pride in the full experience of being homosexual, but they also let us have a bit of time where we don't have to worry so much, a place of safety and fellowship. I've actually heard much the same feeling expressed by religious people about when they are at church. I'm not saying they are equal but they offer a similar feeling and some similar experiences. I get to go to my pride parade on Saturday and i'm really excited, not because of what will be in the parade( i'm not a parade fan) but just because of the environment and the people both straight and gay who are there.

[JesusParadox]

You have avoided answering almost every question. That is not honest of you, MasterOrator. If you truly are a master orator, as you claim, you will happily and completely respond to each of my points rather than dodge them.

Wrong. Staffing a center to rehab homosexuals and try to help repentent SSA sufferers is equivalent to staffing rehab centers and prisons. Attending a parade for Gay Pride is equivalent to attending a parade for cutters or crack smokers (or dog sex people) -- it's a glorification of the activity, not an affirmation of the underlying humanity.

If a "Gay Pride Parade" is merely an affirmation of homosexuals' underlying humanity and in no way a glorification of their perversion, then explain why a Dog Sex Pride Parade (or cutters parade, or crack smokers parade) is not exactly the same thing.

(HINT: Because the "Gay Pride Parade" is not merely an affirmation of humanity; it is a celebration of the perversion, just as surely as a crack smokers parade would be.)

You claimed there was:

In the case of a gay pride parade, almost half of the United States would support such a parade. That is why it is important we show love towards them.

Note your logic: The REASON we should show love toward homosexual activity is BECAUSE half the country supports it.

But why not? As you clearly claimed above, the REASON to support homosexuality is because it's now so popular. Why would the Saints of a couple of generations past not have been justified in condemning it, seeing as how it wasn't popular at that time?

Shame on you for dodging the question. Now answer it: If in fifty years people think sex with animals is wonderful, should the Saints at that time support a Bestiality Pride Parade?

Until very recently, homosex was against the law. So are you now saying that as long as homosexual conduct is illegal, we have no moral imperative to show tolerance for homosexuals? It's only when the homosexual conduct is made legal that we are obliged to show tolerance for it?

Please answer this question and do not just dodge it.

I have never heard the Church teach "be tolerant of gays", so I don't even know what you mean. We should be tolerant of gays in the same sense that we should be tolerant of people with freckles and people with spiked hair and people with body odor and people with crack addictions and people who rape other people and people who use foul language and people who vote Democrat and people who ride motorcycles. We should be tolerant of people.

You have just answered your own question. We should never, ever, EVER support homosexuality. It is a grave and destructive sin. It is a practice that leads people away from God. It is spiritual death.

Attending a Gay Pride Parade is, as you say, showing support toward homosexuality. Such is exactly contrary to everything the gospel teaches. We should, of course, show tolerance to homosexuals on a personal basis. But showing tolerance to a smoker doesn't mean I let him smoke in my car. It also doesn't mean I fight against no-smoking laws in public places. I tolerate the smoker, because he's a human being, but I do not condone his actions and attend Smoker's Pride Parades.

And since homosex is approximately ten zillion times more destructive than smoking, I certainly don't attend Gay Pride Parades, either.

Then WHY DON'T YOU WANT TO ATTEND THE BESTIALITY PRIDE PARADE? They will hold the parade and live their lifestyle regardless!

Your arguments are utterly meaningless. You are willing to apply them only to the specific case of homosexuality. You reject them in every other context by saying, "Well, that's different."

How on earth do you possibly justify this statement?

Having tolerance (love) toward our neighbor who smokes or fornicates with prostitutes or has sex with his pooch or smokes crack or masturbates with razor blades does not mean we have any business attending and supporting parades that glorify those things.

I chose not to read your post after I read the first two lines. Next time you wish to engage me in a forum discussion do it with manners. Telling me I lie and a bunch of other nonsensical things is not showing your true self Vort. It is my sincere prayer, that you have a better day tomorrow.