Other religions

[skippy740]

Regardless of whether you think I'm prideful or not, do you believe other religions can bring people close to God, and if they don't get a chance to accept truths in this life, they can be taught and saved in the next life?

If so, we are close to agreement that other religions can be one pathway to exaltation. For God works in mysterious ways, and His ways are higher than our ways. I'm not saying our church is false (I've never suggested that). I'm just saying I'm open to possibilities of many paths.

This is where we disagree.

- Other churches are a path for finding God - yes.

- Other churches are a path towards exaltation? No.

Other churches can help their members build a relationship with God so that God can lead them to more blessings. Eventually, I think that relationship would lead them to want to learn about the fullness of the gospel.

If they never hear the fullness of the gospel, they will have the opportunity in the next life.

But one cannot inherit the Celestial Kingdom without accepting the fullness of the gospel and have received all the ordinances required.

[jb789]

This is where we disagree.

- Other churches are a path for finding God - yes.

- Other churches are a path towards exaltation? No.

Other churches can help their members build a relationship with God so that God can lead them to more blessings. Eventually, I think that relationship would lead them to want to learn about the fullness of the gospel.

If they never hear the fullness of the gospel, they will have the opportunity in the next life.

But one cannot inherit the Celestial Kingdom without accepting the fullness of the gospel and have received all the ordinances required.

I second this, I think it is a good, concise statement of the matter. I would add that, on occasion, teachings from other faiths may also supplement what we learn in Church, with the caveat that eventually the fullness of the gospel/ordinances/Christ are ultimately necessary (in this or the next life).

[Heber13]

This is where we disagree.

- Other churches are a path for finding God - yes.

- Other churches are a path towards exaltation? No.

Hmm...if they are finding God, why are not not moving towards exaltation?

Other churches can help their members build a relationship with God so that God can lead them to more blessings. Eventually, I think that relationship would lead them to want to learn about the fullness of the gospel.

If they never hear the fullness of the gospel, they will have the opportunity in the next life.

But one cannot inherit the Celestial Kingdom without accepting the fullness of the gospel and have received all the ordinances required.

Is being baptized and receiving temple ordinances the fullness of the gospel?

I think that as an endowed member, I am still learning, and still have need for continuing revelation, including a prophet to help me learn line upon line until I can grow closer to God and learn the fullness of the gospel. I don't think I know it all yet, but I have the spirit of promise I can in the future.

Compare that to my Christian friend who is learning more about God as he lives his life according to the bible and is learning line upon line getting closer to God. One day, if he continues to seek God, can learn more of the fullness of the gospel, even get his ordinance work done, in this life or the next.

Are we not both on paths to get closer to God? Are we not "in the middle" of our eternal lives as Pres Uchtdorf taught in the July Ensign so the end we don't know about yet?

If other religions are bringing people closer to God, I can't see how that doesn't bring them closer to exaltation.

If religions are steering them further from God, then those might be paths away from exaltation. I'm sure there are some people in some religions that are going further from God for sure. But not all.

[skippy740]

Learning about God and the Gospel is not the same as the path towards exaltation.

Yes, you are both on paths towards a closer relationship to God... but a relationship alone is not enough for exaltation.

Matthew 7:21-23

21 ¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Now, I'm not saying that your Christian friend is on a path of working iniquity. But strait is the gate and narrow is the way and few there be that find it.

Even baptism that is not performed under proper authority or covenant is to be redone:

Acts 19:2-5

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Was the manner of John's baptism 'bad'? No. But was it the proper baptism for the new covenant that Christ performed for us? No. So, there was no discouraging them from the good things of their prior baptism, but they needed to be baptized under the new covenant with one who had the authority to perform it.

This conference talk may help as well to clarify other Christian teachings to LDS beliefs.

Have You Been Saved? - general-conference

[skippy740]

Let me ask you a question Heber:

Let's suppose that a good church decided to copy the temple rites and ordinances to perform for their members.

- Is it progressing towards God?

- Will the ordinance be "recognized" in heaven?

[Heber13]

Let's suppose that a good church decided to copy the temple rites and ordinances to perform for their members.

- Is it progressing towards God?

Good question. Obviously, much of this depends upon their intentions and their heart, which God would need to judge. So it is hard to just look at outward actions and know, just as it is hard to look at some other church and know just by the outward actions.

My first thought is if they truly believed the temple ceremony was needed to get closer to God, then they should join our Church where it is available to do it with proper authority. I don't know why they would need to replicate it when it is available to all to join and partake.

If they were in some circumstance they felt this was not an option, let's say, in some country where the church was banned, and although misguided, their intentions were pure to replicate something they thought was good, then I would think it could have power to bring them closer to God through the symbolism it represents, and God could use that to prepare them for further light and knowledge when circumstances allow (an Apostle could be sent to give them proper guidance when possible).

- Will the ordinance be "recognized" in heaven?

Likely not. Similar to the scripture in Acts, they would need to have the ordinance done again properly with proper authority.

So, the people in Acts who were trying to do their best with what they had...good for them, they tried, and the Lord made a way for them to be provided for, as their intentions were good. The Lord did not just cut them off and say, "Nope, you didn't have authority. Lesser kingdom for you."

The same would go for a well-intentioned church replicating the temple in efforts to try to get closer to God.

I believe God looks on the heart...and provides a way for those who sincerely seek Him.

Of course, this is a hypothetical scenario.

If the church was ripping off the temple ceremony and doing it for money or evil intentions, I believe the wrath of God would come down on them for mocking something so sacred. If that was their heart, then they would neither be getting closer to God or have it recognized in heaven.

[bytor2112]

In football, there are many offensive philosophy's that score touch downs and result in winning championships. But, there is ONLY one road that leads to Eternal Life and that road is a strait and narrow one. Come unto Christ and find in HIM Eternal Life....not, have a good heart and good intentions and follow whichever religious philosophy that suits you and ....end up with Eternal Life. There IS a reason the Church was restored..............

[Heber13]

Bytor, I have wondered about that. I notice it doesn't say, come unto the LDS church. It says to come unto Christ. I realize I may be looking at it differently, but it has just made me think that my Christian friend who is such a stand up guy, he has such a solid testimony of Christ and the power of the Atonement in his life...I am sympathetic to his situation since he is coming unto Christ. He is one of those Golden people that would make a great bishop if he was mormon.

I worry we may too quickly jump to conclusions that the LDS Church is the only path to God, when my studies of other religions help me see how much we have in common.

In fact as I read the scriptures, I see more that states it as you did...come unto Christ. Look to God. Be like Him. I think he wants to save as many of His children as He can. Perhaps there are other paths provided so they can come to Him, and eventually (in this life or the next) build on what they have, and He will add to it.

[bytor2112]

Joseph Smith said (paraphrasing) that any who follow the teachings found in the Bible would be saved. I don't think being a Latter Day Saint is a requirement. That said, we as LDS are certainly here to dispel sectarian notions about the true nature of Deity, the purpose of our mortal experience and ultimately who we have the potential to become in the fullest sense.

The Journey doesn't end with the return of the Savior. The work will continue and after the Mellenial reign, the Adversary will again be freed for a season to rage again and lead as many away as will follow.....then the judgement. Our foreordained purpose as Saints is to prepare for the return of the Savior and invite as many as will to Come unto Christ and in HIM be perfected. We cannot be perfected and sanctified without the Holy Ghost and we cannot have the Holy Ghost without Priesthood authority and the saving ordinances administered by.....

Your friend and all those who will accept Christ and repent can receive the promised blessings associated with becoming Sons and Daughters of Christ through baptism, etc.

Edited July 19, 2012 by bytor2112

[Bensalem]

Joseph Smith said (paraphrasing) that any who follow the teachings found in the Bible would be saved. I don't think being a Latter Day Saint is a requirement.

Your friend and all those who will accept Christ and repent can receive the promised blessings associated with becoming Sons and Daughters of Christ through baptism, etc.

Salvation, which saves us from the pains of spiritual death, is open to all believers through repentance and faith in Christ. Baptism is the threshold of His Church. And since Christ taught "one baptism...one church", one community of saints, and one authority in the priesthood it seems clear that the LDS church is that threshold into exaltation in His One Israel.

Salvation is one thing and exaltation is another.

[bytor2112]

Salvation, which saves us from the pains of spiritual death, is open to all believers through repentance and faith in Christ. Baptism is the threshold of His Church. And since Christ taught "one baptism...one church", one community of saints, and one authority in the priesthood it seems clear that the LDS church is that threshold into exaltation in His One Israel.

Salvation is one thing and exaltation is another.

Yes...Paul taught, One Lord, One Faith and One baptism............and Salvation to me and hopefully you as well IS Exaltation.

I think that Salvation (in the context as stated by you) is to be rescued from physical death because Christ is Risen and the only salvation from Spiritual death (separation from God) is Exaltation.

Edited July 19, 2012 by bytor2112

[skalenfehl]

Let us remember that there are only two churches on the face of the earth. And being a member of the LDS or any other religion is not a guarantee of membership in the church of the Lamb of God. How often the Nephite prophets wrote of OUR day and of us for polluting the holy church of God and transfiguring the holy word of God...

Something to ponder.

[Vort]

Good question. Obviously, much of this depends upon their intentions and their heart, which God would need to judge. So it is hard to just look at outward actions and know, just as it is hard to look at some other church and know just by the outward actions.

So, then, why did God bother to restore Priesthood authority to Joseph Smith? Why not just tell him to build a temple and then bless the effort? If Priesthood authority is so unimportant, why has God taken such pains with it?

My first thought is if they truly believed the temple ceremony was needed to get closer to God, then they should join our Church where it is available to do it with proper authority. I don't know why they would need to replicate it when it is available to all to join and partake.

Obviously, because they don't believe LDS doctrine. And why should they? By your logic, there are many paths to God, an infinite number. Why shouldn't they set up their own temple ceremonies, approved by God, without having to believe all that stuff about the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost?

If they were in some circumstance they felt this was not an option, let's say, in some country where the church was banned, and although misguided, their intentions were pure to replicate something they thought was good, then I would think it could have power to bring them closer to God through the symbolism it represents, and God could use that to prepare them for further light and knowledge when circumstances allow (an Apostle could be sent to give them proper guidance when possible).

How insulting to their honest efforts and ordinances! What apostle would dare to proclaim that their religion is anything less than complete?

Likely not. Similar to the scripture in Acts, they would need to have the ordinance done again properly with proper authority.

How can you believe such an insulting and belittling thing? It goes against your own stated principles.

[Vort]

You know what? I think I might just understand what Heber13 is preaching to us. It goes something like this:

The LDS Church is in fact the truest and most correct Church on the earth, and the only one with actual Priesthood authority. But it's in really, really poor taste to say this, so we should just keep it between us. Someone might get offended! There is no real need to warn our neighbors; after all, we can just baptize them vicariously after they're dead, and that way we don't risk offending them by letting them in on the secret that our Church is truer.

[Bensalem]

Yes...Paul taught, One Lord, One Faith and One baptism............and Salvation to me and hopefully you as well IS Exaltation.

I think that Salvation is to be rescued from physical death because Christ is Risen and the only salvation from Spiritual death (separation from God) is Exaltation.

I have to disagree. Many with faith in Christ suffer physical pain in death. Salvation rescues us from spiritual death because our sins have been forgiven; there is no debt to pay. Spiritual death is a separation from God, but one can be in the company of the Holy Ghost and not yet be exalted in Christ.

Salvation is sanctification. Exaltation is glorification.

[Bensalem]

There is no real need to warn our neighbors; after all, we can just baptize them vicariously after they're dead, and that way we don't risk offending them by letting them in on the secret that our Church is truer.

Are you joking again?

[Bensalem]

Let us remember that there are only two churches on the face of the earth. And being a member of the LDS or any other religion is not a guarantee of membership in the church of the Lamb of God. How often the Nephite prophets wrote of OUR day and of us for polluting the holy church of God and transfiguring the holy word of God...

Something to ponder.

So what are the two churches?

[bytor2112]

I have to disagree. Many with faith in Christ suffer physical pain in death. Salvation rescues us from spiritual death because our sins have been forgiven; there is no debt to pay. Spiritual death is a separation from God, but one can be in the company of the Holy Ghost and not yet be exalted in Christ.

Salvation is sanctification. Exaltation is glorification.

Not following where we disagree.....

After the Fall came Spiritual death, which is separation from the presence of God and physical death. Christ burst the bands of death and all will be resurrected to their physical body. In order to gain Eternal Life and overcome Spiritual death (return to live with Heavenly Father, become joint heirs with Christ and live as the Father lives and have Eternal increase and the only salvation for Bytor) we must become like Christ.

[bytor2112]

So what are the two churches?

The Church of Christ and the church of the devil.....

[Vort]

Are you joking again?

No, I am not joking. This is, I believe, effectively exactly what Heber13 is saying.

He strongly disclaims that the LDS Church is the unique path to God and claims that pretty much any path leads to God, so long as people are nice and progressing in some way. But then he doubles back and says that, no, ordinances performed by other churches have no efficacy in heaven and will need to be redone -- by the LDS Church.

So how to reconcile these two conflicting positions? The only way I can see it is if it's the proclamation of the truth of Mormonism that bothers Heber13. The fact that he seemingly accepts the truth claims of the LDS Church indicates that even he himself does not really believe that "all paths lead to God". So why the deception? Why does he make a claim that, it seems, even he himself disbelieves?

My guess is that he doesn't want to offend anyone (at least, not anyone outside the Church -- fellow Church members may be excepted). He believes, as thousands have done before him, that he has discovered a divine loophole. We need not proclaim the gospel and teach the revealed facts that the LDS Church is the only route to God, because we can just wait until everyone dies and baptize them then!

The fact that this is explicitly anti-Mormon and contradicts the very foundation of the Restoration makes me wonder if Heber13 can really believe this. But I see no other way for his otherwise contradictory opinions to be reconciled. If I am wrong, then it seems that either Heber13 does not really think all religions are equally as good and valuable to salvation as the LDS Church, and thus is saying so only to make trouble and see if he can stir the pot and enjoy the result; or else he does not really believe the truth claims of the LDS Church, and only says he does because he has an emotional investment in the LDS Church that makes him want to stay, despite his overt disbelief.

Perhaps you can ask Heber13. But don't hold your breath for an answer; he has studiously avoided answering almost any of my questions since he got here.

[skippy740]

Good question. Obviously, much of this depends upon their intentions and their heart, which God would need to judge. So it is hard to just look at outward actions and know, just as it is hard to look at some other church and know just by the outward actions.

My first thought is if they truly believed the temple ceremony was needed to get closer to God, then they should join our Church where it is available to do it with proper authority. I don't know why they would need to replicate it when it is available to all to join and partake.

If they were in some circumstance they felt this was not an option, let's say, in some country where the church was banned, and although misguided, their intentions were pure to replicate something they thought was good, then I would think it could have power to bring them closer to God through the symbolism it represents, and God could use that to prepare them for further light and knowledge when circumstances allow (an Apostle could be sent to give them proper guidance when possible).

Likely not. Similar to the scripture in Acts, they would need to have the ordinance done again properly with proper authority.

So, the people in Acts who were trying to do their best with what they had...good for them, they tried, and the Lord made a way for them to be provided for, as their intentions were good. The Lord did not just cut them off and say, "Nope, you didn't have authority. Lesser kingdom for you."

The same would go for a well-intentioned church replicating the temple in efforts to try to get closer to God.

I believe God looks on the heart...and provides a way for those who sincerely seek Him.

Of course, this is a hypothetical scenario.

If the church was ripping off the temple ceremony and doing it for money or evil intentions, I believe the wrath of God would come down on them for mocking something so sacred. If that was their heart, then they would neither be getting closer to God or have it recognized in heaven.

Heber13: I've figured out the problem.

Are you ready?

You LIKE the LDS church and its teachings. You like the culture of the church. You like the message of the church and how unique it is compared to other religions.

You don't have a testimony of the restoration. You don't have a testimony of conviction that the restoration performed by the Lord through the Prophet Joseph that THIS church is the ONLY true church whereby man can be saved and exalted to the Celestial Kingdom.

Because you don't have a testimony, you are "okay" with others being of their faith - even though and especially because they are GOOD people, your testimony is not strong enough (or you don't care enough about them) to share the true gospel of Jesus Christ that you need (and should have) in your own heart.

Your conviction in the restored gospel is not strong enough, therefore you are doubting the message that this is the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth.

Until your conviction becomes stronger, you will continue to rationalize it in your mind and 'wrestle' with the scriptures. (You know what the root word of 'rationalize' is right? It's LIES!) :)

You don't have a testimony of the restoration. And you don't have a testimony that the temple work being done is essential to obtain Celestial Glory - and that it is available to ALL who come unto Christ.

I believe that you are letting the 'world's labels' of faiths to cloud your judgement and beliefs - such as: Catholics, Methodists, Lutherans, Baptists, Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. You begin to equate and compare upon the wisdom that the WORLD gives... not fully trusting the Holy Spirit and the testimony that you should have about this work - how unique it is, and that it is our DUTY to share it with those we love and care about.

And I think you're scared to let yourself understand the whole truth and the grand picture that the Lord has in store for us all. I think you're scared because once you know, you know that the Lord will expect great things from you. "Unto much is given, much is required."

Think of the purety of the gospel message in its entirety... and ask yourself this: Why shouldn't you share these additional truths with the people you know?

I'm also going to take a guess: You've been uncomfortable (or not attending) in Priesthood lessons. We've been going through the George Albert Smith manual and the lessons over the past few weeks have all centered on missionary work... and you're uncomfortable doing it and sharing the message with those you know are good people and you don't want to mess up your relationship with them.

I think you should read this article as well. It was an article I read every week on my mission to help me model my missionary service and be the missionary that I wanted to be. It is also about the responsibility of missionary work and the unique and sacredness of the gospel message.

The Challenging and Testifying Missionary

I'm being strong with you because you are waffling. You are "luke-warm" as the Savior would say. You are "on the fence" and that's not a good position for a High Priest to be in this church.

This is my judgment based on the writings in this thread. But I don't think I'm too far off the mark here.

Your testimony has either never been fully built... or it has been shaken.

You may want to review this book as well:

http://www.amazon.com/Shaken-Syndrome-Strengthening-Testimony-Criticism/dp/1893036081/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1342675683&sr=8-1&keywords=shaken+faith+syndrome

[Hala401]

The Church of Christ and the church of the devil.....

In looking at what happened to Jesus Christ's Church after his Crucifixion, the Gnostics and Essenes were slain, the library at Alexandra was burned, the inquisition happened, the council of Nicea occured, Mary Magdalene was declared a whore, and so on and so on. So many of the present day doctrines of other churches are not supportable, and it just goes on and on. I was baptized 4 times before being baptized in the LDS church, and one of them was in the Jordan river in Israel. I really wanted to belong to Jesus Christ, but it never really took hold until a young Elder did it in an LDS Ward.

Though I am reluctant to use the term you have to describe other churches, I will not dispute what you say.

[Bensalem]

Not following where we disagree.....

After the Fall came Spiritual death, which is separation from the presence of God and physical death. Christ burst the bands of death and all will be resurrected to their physical body. In order to gain Eternal Life and overcome Spiritual death (return to live with Heavenly Father, become joint heirs with Christ and live as the Father lives and have Eternal increase and the only salvation for Bytor) we must become like Christ.

I was disagreeing with what you originally said:

Originally Posted by bytor2112

...and Salvation to me and hopefully you as well IS Exaltation.

I think that Salvation is to be rescued from physical death because Christ is Risen and the only salvation from Spiritual death (separation from God) is Exaltation.

I speak of spiritual death as what happens when we die in our sins (not having obtained forgiveness through the atonement); we are claimed by Satan and we go to spirit prison. Salvation is the rescue from the 'hell' of spirit prison after physical death. Salvation returns us to a spiritual paradise where we remain until the resurrection of the just.

Resurrection is not exaltation. Resurrection unites our spirits with our bodies. But Alma taught that all are resurrected; the just are resurrected to eternal life in the light of Christ and the unjust to eternal misery in darkness.

The Fall did not bring spiritual death to Adam since he still had access to the Holy Ghost. The separation was from God's physical presence, not His spiritual presence. The Fall brought on mortality and introduced physical death, but you made it sound as if salvation saved us from the pains of physical death. It does not.

Exaltation is glorification. We must be glorified before entering the presence of God. As Church members we are the body of Christ, since Christ is a glorified being, we are also glorified in Christ. Christ was baptized on earth by John who held the Aaronic priesthood. In order to be part of His body, all must be baptized in like manor. Whereas many may gain salvation and live eternally in the light of Christ, only the baptized gain access to the body of Christ.

A higher exaltation is obtainable through the covenants of the priesthood. When we become priests our glorification is akin to God's.

[Bensalem]

The Church of Christ and the church of the devil.....

And the dividing line is salvation at the time of death. The repentant faithful will enter a spiritual paradise awaiting the resurrection. Those who die in their sins will be claimed by Satan and go to spirit prison. One may be resurrected in the light of Christ, but access to the Church of Christ requires baptism.

[Bensalem]

No, I am not joking. This is, I believe, effectively exactly what Heber13 is saying.

He strongly disclaims that the LDS Church is the unique path to God and claims that pretty much any path leads to God, so long as people are nice and progressing in some way. But then he doubles back and says that, no, ordinances performed by other churches have no efficacy in heaven and will need to be redone -- by the LDS Church.

So how to reconcile these two conflicting positions? The only way I can see it is if it's the proclamation of the truth of Mormonism that bothers Heber13. The fact that he seemingly accepts the truth claims of the LDS Church indicates that even he himself does not really believe that "all paths lead to God". So why the deception? Why does he make a claim that, it seems, even he himself disbelieves?

My guess is that he doesn't want to offend anyone (at least, not anyone outside the Church -- fellow Church members may be excepted). He believes, as thousands have done before him, that he has discovered a divine loophole. We need not proclaim the gospel and teach the revealed facts that the LDS Church is the only route to God, because we can just wait until everyone dies and baptize them then!

The fact that this is explicitly anti-Mormon and contradicts the very foundation of the Restoration makes me wonder if Heber13 can really believe this. But I see no other way for his otherwise contradictory opinions to be reconciled. If I am wrong, then it seems that either Heber13 does not really think all religions are equally as good and valuable to salvation as the LDS Church, and thus is saying so only to make trouble and see if he can stir the pot and enjoy the result; or else he does not really believe the truth claims of the LDS Church, and only says he does because he has an emotional investment in the LDS Church that makes him want to stay, despite his overt disbelief.

Perhaps you can ask Heber13. But don't hold your breath for an answer; he has studiously avoided answering almost any of my questions since he got here.

Thanks for your assessment of Heber13's internal conflict. Maybe my two posts above will help to reconcile him.