Other religions

[skalenfehl]

So what are the two churches?

1 Nephi 14:10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

Moriancumr saw our day as did Lehi, Nephi, Mormon, Moroni, etc. They wrote not only for the benefit of their posterity but for all the gentiles of the latter days. This means the "church," which is supposed to be the only true and living church. IMHO, the times of the gentiles is nearly fulfilled.

Study 1 Nephi 10 and then master Jacob 5. Ponder Mormon 8. How has the church become so polluted? I'll leave it here.

[Bensalem]

1 Nephi 14:10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

Moriancumr saw our day as did Lehi, Nephi, Mormon, Moroni, etc. They wrote not only for the benefit of their posterity but for all the gentiles of the latter days. This means the "church," which is supposed to be the only true and living church. IMHO, the times of the gentiles is nearly fulfilled.

Study 1 Nephi 10 and then master Jacob 5. Ponder Mormon 8. How has the church become so polluted? I'll leave it here.

I haven't done the reading assignment so I won't try to answer your question. But let me suggest that the two churches can be equated to the Church of Good and the church of evil. Since all good things come from Christ and other religions has some good people in them, than many will be judged to be good and will enter into the light of Christ in the resurrection. Since Christ is the Word, than the Church of the Lamb includes all who have accepted and acted upon His good word.

However, to be in the light of Christ is different than to be in the body of Christ, which requires baptism. Baptism makes us a saint in his Church. And again, to be exalted in the priesthood is a still higher form of glorification than baptism alone. Therefore we can all be a part of his church and we can be at different levels of personal progression.

[skalenfehl]

Therefore we can all be a part of his church and we can be at different levels of personal progression.

You are catching on. The entire point of the gospel (not the church), the GOSPEL of Jesus Christ is to come unto Him. We can only be a Zion people if we can endure Christ's presence. We can only endure Christ's presence if we are like Him. He showed us the way. He introduced Himself to the Nephites (3 Nephi 11:11) and in a breath, taught us what we need to do to be like Him. He awaits each of us.

D&C 93:1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

This is the only way that we can become the very fruit of His harvest as described in Jacob 5. Baptism is an outward performance. It is the beginning. The gate. The point of the gospel is not to go to church every Sunday or to fast twelve times a year, etc. Those are part of the journey, but only parts of it. The entire point of the gospel is to be brought back into His presence. All the covenants and performances in this life are only the means to an end and not the end. They merely prepare us for the real thing, which can happen now, if we only get started. If we are not ready now, we will not be any more ready on the other side of the veil. It requires sacrifice no less of ourselves as it did the Savior. He was the ultimate example of sacrifice, love, service, etc. He is the archetype of a saved man.

Ether 4:7 7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.

"And, fellow sojourners upon earth, it is your privilege to purify yourselves and come up to the same glory, and see for yourselves, and know for yourselves. Ask, and it shall be given you; seek and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you"--Joseph Smith

"Then I would exhort you to go on and continue to call upon God until you make your calling and election sure for yourselves; by obtaining this more sure word of prophecy, and wait patiently for the promise until you obtain it." --Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 299.

This is what the gospel of Jesus Christ is truly about. This is what we should all earnestly be seeking today. This is why we have the Book of Mormon.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I haven't done the reading assignment so I won't try to answer your question. But let me suggest that the two churches can be equated to the Church of Good and the church of evil. Since all good things come from Christ and other religions has some good people in them, than many will be judged to be good and will enter into the light of Christ in the resurrection. Since Christ is the Word, than the Church of the Lamb includes all who have accepted and acted upon His good word.

However, to be in the light of Christ is different than to be in the body of Christ, which requires baptism. Baptism makes us a saint in his Church. And again, to be exalted in the priesthood is a still higher form of glorification than baptism alone. Therefore we can all be a part of his church and we can be at different levels of personal progression.

The line is not drawn at good and evil. It is drawn at the things required to keep our second estate and those that don't keep the second estate. Just like in the pre-mortal world the line ultimately was drawn at those that kept the first estate and those that didn't. These are lines that cannot be recrossed when the test of the second estate is over. There will be set limitations and associated "fullnesses" possible but one could never go back and have a retry at keeping the second estate if they don't the first time around.

[Heber13]

All the covenants and performances in this life are only the means to an end and not the end. They merely prepare us for the real thing, which can happen now, if we only get started.

Well said, skalenfehl. I believe this as well.

The line is not drawn at good and evil. It is drawn at the things required to keep our second estate and those that don't keep the second estate.

Good point. Can you tell me what you think is required to "keeping our second estate"?

I also think, there wasn't something like Pre-mortal temple work or vicarious work, probably because we didn't need it since we were in God's presence. But the second estate is opened up to what we do on this life...and if necessary, the vicarious work allowing the 2nd estate to continue into the spirit world until the day of judgment. I like that principle our church teaches. It makes it seem more fair to everyone who is born into various circumstances in this world. It makes it less absolute about this mortal experience only.

Since all good things come from Christ and other religions has some good people in them, than many will be judged to be good and will enter into the light of Christ in the resurrection. Since Christ is the Word, than the Church of the Lamb includes all who have accepted and acted upon His good word.

However, to be in the light of Christ is different than to be in the body of Christ, which requires baptism. Baptism makes us a saint in his Church. And again, to be exalted in the priesthood is a still higher form of glorification than baptism alone. Therefore we can all be a part of his church and we can be at different levels of personal progression.

This makes a lot of sense to me, especially the part about individual progression. We can be at different points in progression, and still be moving toward God in our own journey. It is why we can't judge others (including non-LDS). Because we don't know what part of the journey they are on in going back to God. We are all still in the "middle way" of our Eternal Lives, as Pres Uchtdorf put it.

[Heber13]

"Changed" made a great post on the previous page, and pointed it out 2Ne 29:7 - 13, there are teachings we believe in that are open to lost tribes. Christ setup His Church while in Jerusalem. But at the same time, God provided a way for other tribes.

Our Article of Faith #9 states

9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

Since there are many "great and important" things yet to be revealed, I am open to there being more than "one way", because we don't know everything yet.

But with what we know, we try to be converted and become more like Christ, with the light and knowledge we're given.

[Bensalem]

You are catching on.

Study 1 Nephi 10 and then master Jacob 5. Ponder Mormon 8. How has the church become so polluted?

Why don't you just tell me?

[Bensalem]

This makes a lot of sense to me, especially the part about individual progression. We can be at different points in progression, and still be moving toward God in our own journey. It is why we can't judge others (including non-LDS). Because we don't know what part of the journey they are on in going back to God. We are all still in the "middle way" of our Eternal Lives, as Pres Uchtdorf put it.

Was Pres Uchtdorf referring to the "middle way" as being our mortal life here on earth between our premortal life and our afterlife?

[skippy740]

I would still like to know what Heber13 thinks of my post (#116) and my opinion based on this thread:

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/47392-other-religions-3.html#post684004

[Bensalem]

The line is not drawn at good and evil. It is drawn at the things required to keep our second estate and those that don't keep the second estate. Just like in the pre-mortal world the line ultimately was drawn at those that kept the first estate and those that didn't. These are lines that cannot be recrossed when the test of the second estate is over. There will be set limitations and associated "fullnesses" possible but one could never go back and have a retry at keeping the second estate if they don't the first time around.

I never suggested a retry mode; it is either pass of fail.

In the premortal first estate the line was drawn between those spirits who rebelled against the Word and those who went along with the Plan of Salvation; they moved on to their second estate upon a mortal earth, while the rebellious angles lost their first estate. Wasn't Lucifer's rebellion evil and the faith of the remaining participants good?

Likewise with our earthly second estate. Those who rebel against the Word are judged evil and loose their second estate, while those who's faith leads them to God are judged good and move on to the Kingdom of Heaven, which is our third estate. Again, faith or rebel (meaning good or evil) are the determining factors.

[Heber13]

Skippy, let me try to respond to your points.

You LIKE the LDS church and its teachings. You like the culture of the church. You like the message of the church and how unique it is compared to other religions.

You don't have a testimony of the restoration.

Actually, I'd say I LOVE the church, not just like it. I've committed almost my whole life to it, and I defend it regularly.

I do have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel. I hold a temple recommend, and when asked, I don't hesitate to affirm to my authorities I have a testimony of the restoration.

You don't have a testimony of conviction that the restoration performed by the Lord through the Prophet Joseph that THIS church is the ONLY true church whereby man can be saved and exalted to the Celestial Kingdom.

That's right (although the wording and meaning behind words is critical to clarify). This Church was restored by the Prophet Joseph Smith by the Lord and is an earthly institution to help us in our journey, and the gospel goes beyond this Church and this earthly existence (the church and the gospel are different things, although related, they have different functions). I feel exaltation is determined on gospel principles, not on church ordinances only. Church ordinances and doctrines are the scaffolding to help us get to truth and Christ. The symbolic meanings help us look to God as the only way, and commit ourselve to them so we can practice living them. Temple work and our doctrine of teaching spirits in the spirit world help me feel good inside that I can believe exaltation can be based on more than this church. But this church can be a part of the path to exaltation, and I LOVE this church, believe it is true, and want to live my life according to its teachings to help me become converted to the gospel.

As I get older, however, I see things differently. We "see through a glass darkly", as Paul wrote in Corinthians. Therefore, even an apostle like Paul knows we do not see it all crystal clear, but we have enough to help us work to be more like Christ.

Because you don't have a testimony, you are "okay" with others being of their faith - even though and especially because they are GOOD people, your testimony is not strong enough (or you don't care enough about them) to share the true gospel of Jesus Christ that you need (and should have) in your own heart.

Your conviction in the restored gospel is not strong enough, therefore you are doubting the message that this is the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth.

That does not describe how I feel inside. I think through most of this thread, the issue is I break things out differently, whereas 10 years ago I saw things more like you are stating it.

What I break out is the restoration as one thing, and the Church being the "one and only" way to God as a different idea.

So I disagree because my testimony of the gospel is strong. I have given a Book of Mormon to my Christian friend, bearing my testimony it is of God, and that he can get closer to Christ through reading it (because that is what I believe).

And because I CARE so much about him, I want to share what I know, and I also care enough about him that I listen to what he has to share. And frankly, he has many things I learn from. Because he did not accept the Book of Mormon as scripture, and is happy with his faith in Christ, I care enough about him to accept him as he is, and because I know how righteous his heart is (from what I can tell), I have a hard time believing God would deny him the highest degree of the CK. But I leave that up to God, and I do not tell him he cannot be saved unless he joins our church. I do not believe that in my heart. It doesn't feel right to me.

I believe the Church is right for ME. I cannot tell what is right for others. And so, I let go of that, and I let go of feeling I must claim there is only one way. What does it profit me to say there is "one way"? I don't find anything.

I just focus on me and my way. But I will continue to do my part as a missionary to teach my friend the gospel. One of the best ways, I believe, is to love him, and not approach him with an attitude that he must change or he will not be exalted. Rather, I'd like to show him the beauty and love I have of the church, and invite him to study it, and if the spirit confirms its truth to him, great. If he doesn't join the church, then great. I trust God has a path for him. I hope he finds it. If he doesn't choose to, then he will be judged by God for his desires. If he does, he can be baptized either in this life, or in the next life, and be exalted. Therefore his path to exaltation would be a different path than mine as a faithful LDS member in this world.

You don't have a testimony of the restoration. And you don't have a testimony that the temple work being done is essential to obtain Celestial Glory - and that it is available to ALL who come unto Christ

No, as I've said many times, the idea that has me thinking about all of this is that temple work can be done for those in the spirit world by proxy. Because of that, people who live good lives in this life without the proper opportunity to accept the Church can be given opportunities in the next life, therefore, their religion in this life can help them be good people and become like Christ so they will be worthy to stand in his presence, and then the final ordinances can be done (kind of as a formality, I guess). My covenants and ordinances are more than a formality to me, because I treasure them and they teach me through the power of the priesthood. But not everyone gets that opportunity in this life for some reason (like Alvin Smith), so the plan allows a way for others to be exalted, even if they are not a part of the LDS Church (like Alvin Smith).

Why shouldn't you share these additional truths with the people you know?

This is getting off topic again, because you are assuming I don't have a testimony and I don't share the gospel. I do. Mostly with people at my work who want to know why I don't drink when I'm at business dinners. It is a great opportunity for me to share my testimony with people. So my beliefs I've stated in this thread do not lead to the conclusion that I don't have a testimony, or it isn't strong enough, or that I am not worthy to be in the temple, or that I don't do home teaching or missionary work. I am a believing mormon.

You are "luke-warm" as the Savior would say. You are "on the fence" and that's not a good position for a High Priest to be in this church.

This is my judgment based on the writings in this thread. But I don't think I'm too far off the mark here.

I can understand that by reading my posts one could think this. But obviously you don't fully know someone by online blogs. You'd have to meet me, know me, and know my heart to really understand me. So, in the original post, I asked the group if I was on dangerous ground, because I'd like to get feedback on these ideas that I feel were inspired by the spirit to help me see things more lovingly than I did in my prior views. I keep studying and praying to ask God to help me find truth. I hope the Moroni promise and D&C 8and9 promises apply to me as much as others, so I study it out and seek God for guidance. I seem to be pushed towards love and tolerance, not exclusivity and "us vs. them". But that is just my personal revelations I have received in the temple.

I do not expect anyone else to have to agree with me, I'm just sharing my thoughts and questions to get feedback from others so that I might consider others' views. But in the end, I will trust my heart.

I think I got the feedback. According to most people, the feeling among this group is that yes...I'm on dangerous ground.

I honestly don't believe I'm waffling. In short, I just look at it differently than you skippy. I have a testimony, I just have some different beliefs, and I think that can happen and does happen in the church. We can have different beliefs and all still be a part of the body of Christ. I love this Church and hope my Christian friend joins some day. If not, I do not condemn him. I believe there can be other paths and God can lead him if my friend chooses to follow Christ. Proxy temple work opens that possibility to me. That is my testimony until God gives me further revelation that I should believe otherwise.

I appreciate everyone's input. I like to learn from hearing others' views. This discussion has been helpful to me. So far, I have not changed my views. But perhaps, I need to be careful how I share my views with others because I can easily be misunderstood with non-traditional beliefs. True understanding comes when we go behind the words we say, and understand each others' minds and hearts...and this is a challenge on a chat board, IMO.

[Heber13]

Was Pres Uchtdorf referring to the "middle way" as being our mortal life here on earth between our premortal life and our afterlife?

I was going to give you another reading assignment ...

but how about I just quickly answer??

there will be moments of beginnings and moments of endings throughout our lives, but these are only markers along the way of the great middle of our eternal lives. Whether we are at the beginning or the end, whether we are young or old, the Lord can use us for His purposes if we simply set aside whatever thoughts limit our ability to serve and allow His will to shape our lives.

[snip]

Being always in the middle means that the game is never over, hope is never lost, defeat is never final. For no matter where we are or what our circumstances, an eternity of beginnings and an eternity of endings stretch out before us.

We are always in the middle.

Always in the Middle - Ensign July 2012 - ensign

[Hala401]

As a convert, I find this discussion has ascended to such a high intellectual level as to be completely useless to me. Plus, I am just a pretty straight talking old farm girl. What ever is implied in your lofty conversation, I will say flat out that there is something special about the LDS church that I have NOT seen in a dozen other denominations in the US, or in Islam. I resist any implication that the others are just good folk and we all oughta be nice as theirs is just as good as ours, because it ain't.

[Heber13]

I respect your opinion, Hala. It seems you have found happiness and joy with your decision to join the church. Thanks for your example. I love it too, and from everything I've studied, the LDS church is the best place for me as well.

[Guest]

As a convert, I find this discussion has ascended to such a high intellectual level as to be completely useless to me.

All of that peripheral stuff and speculation IS useless, except as maybe a hobby for those who enjoy it. But there is a danger of losing your way when you look beyond the mark; the focus is removed from faith in the Lord, Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism and laying on of hands, testimony of the restoration, and keeping the commandments we're given. . . so that those things risk becoming fuzzy in the foreground view, while we're squinting to try and see the stuff in the distance. We have what we need. We have what's important. The rest is just so much fluff.

[skalenfehl]

A question was asked how we can keep our second estate. We do so by inheriting eternal life.

Abraham 3:26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

What is "eternal life?"

For Bensalem:

Study 1 Nephi 10 and then master Jacob 5. Ponder Mormon 8. How has the church become so polluted?

Why don't you just tell me?

It is something that Hala said. This topic has become too much meat for some where there is only place for milk. There are many principles and truths that I did not understand before and as much as it was explained to me, it is still something that I could not understand until studying it out and learning by the Spirit. Some things CAN be taught by others. Some things can only be taught by the Spirit. Otherwise the knowledge is hollow and therefore useless.

If you are not ready to study it out, you are also not ready to understand it in your life. It took me a long time to learn this important lesson. Perhaps I sound condescending, but that is not my intention. Now if you were to read and ponder what I have challenged you to do, which will add to your light, then you will be able to properly digest it and come back to me with the right questions. But I have narrowed it down for you with some chapters that will help. Incidentally, there are Isaiah chapters that Nephi included that will contribute to the answer.

My point is to get people to think. Several years ago, I posted on here a lot and answered question after question, sharing scripture after scripture. But I'm not sure if I ever got people to think. To ponder. To pray. To study it out. To hunger. To feast. This is what we should be doing. Hala, I apologize. I think I get carried away where it is not my place. I do hope that some of my recent posts have been more enlightening than confusing.

[skalenfehl]

All of that peripheral stuff and speculation IS useless, except as maybe a hobby for those who enjoy it. But there is a danger of losing your way when you look beyond the mark; the focus is removed from faith in the Lord, Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism and laying on of hands, testimony of the restoration, and keeping the commandments we're given. . . so that those things risk becoming fuzzy in the foreground view, while we're squinting to try and see the stuff in the distance. We have what we need. We have what's important. The rest is just so much fluff.

Thank you for sharing this. It is given to each of us to know the mysteries of God and we are exhorted to learn them. But Alma said it best:

Alma 26:22 Yea, he that repenteth and exerciseth faith, and bringeth forth good works, and prayeth continually without ceasing—unto such it is given to know the mysteries of God; yea, unto such it shall be given to reveal things which never have been revealed; yea, and it shall be given unto such to bring thousands of souls to repentance, even as it has been given unto us to bring these our brethren to repentance.

Furthermore, he taught Zeezrom:

9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

The Nephites, when they rejected the word and dissented became even more hardened than the Lamanites who never had the same great light. Therefore once someone rejects the light, there is nothing else to replace that light. Jesus Christ is the light and when we reject Him, there is only room for one other to have place in our hearts. Therefore, we should always study, ponder, pray and learn line upon line. This is our birthright and our duty. But it is NOT fluff. It is part of our progression.

Edited July 20, 2012 by skalenfehl

[Guest]

What I meant by "fluff" is stuff we can't really know in this life, and that doesn't really matter; like Adam-God theories, guessing the timing of the second coming, whether we promised ourselves to each other in premortal life and other Saturday's Warrior philosophies, whether we'll look the same after we're resurrected, whether Jimmer will play basketball in the Eternities, etc. I agree that we should always be learning line upon like, but there is so much to learn just from the Temple ceremonies and the scriptures that I don't know if we should go seeking for things that don't affect our salvation, ultimately. That's what I was talking about. Sufficient unto the day, and all of that.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Eowyn

[skalenfehl]

Baptism was a mystery that eluded Nicodemus. Christ gave him just enough light to comprehend it. It is not a mystery to most of us. But there are many more mysteries that wait for us to discover. One points to the other until we are brought into Christ's embrace. Lehi's vision of the Tree of Life symbolizes this for us. And then He will truly teach us as He did the brother of Jared.

Ether 4

6 For the Lord said unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord.

7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.

[jb789]

Therefore, we should always study, ponder, pray and learn line upon line. This is our birthright and our duty. But it is NOT fluff. It is part of our progression.

I think this is great, and the approach of continual learning/spiritual development is a critical one. It is different for every person, as we are all at different points on our spiritual journey back to God.

The principle is that we continue to grow and learn, and there is no end to this until the resurrection and we become like God Himself. So, what for one might be unnecessary to concern oneself with, for another might be a vital part in growing to more understand the mysteries of Godliness. Sometimes the mistake we make is assuming because it is not important for our current understanding or development, that it isn't important for another. For prophets like Joseph, Brigham, and others, what would be for us mysteries that we aren't ready for were very much important in their progression, where they were at. And likewise with everyone in-between. The key is learning by faith and humility (humility meaning we admit we don't know!), and in our mortal/prohibition state there is no end to this.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Good point. Can you tell me what you think is required to "keeping our second estate"?

I also think, there wasn't something like Pre-mortal temple work or vicarious work, probably because we didn't need it since we were in God's presence. But the second estate is opened up to what we do on this life...and if necessary, the vicarious work allowing the 2nd estate to continue into the spirit world until the day of judgment. I like that principle our church teaches. It makes it seem more fair to everyone who is born into various circumstances in this world. It makes it less absolute about this mortal experience only.

I kept my response broad for a reason, to not get into the details of the more encompassing term because that would really throw this thread off track. And, I was referring to his comment about the light of Christ as opposed to the body of Christ. As you are suggesting here, the first estate was a test done in spirit alone. Whereas here, in the second estate test it is one done with a body. And, yes God is the judge of what it means to keep the second estate as there are many variables, such as circumstances that we cannot determine while here. To God it is absolute. As far as our ability to make such judgement while here in this mortal existence it is less absolute, in fact, impossible.

The bottom line that I think is what is raising the question is the idea that the needful steps required to "pass" the second estate test are not just gates. They are not just titles, such as "member" or "christian". The judgement is based in the desire of the heart. The gospel and the organized church with priesthood authority and keys allows for a "mighty" change of heart. Just like the first estate there were some who were of "exceedingly" great faith and not just 'great faith'. We too have the opportunity to achieve a mighty change of heart and align ourselves with the will of God more than one can do by simply being good in this life. The three degrees of glory are all degrees of glory and the lesser one is far greater than anything we could imagine with a mortal mindset. As, I think it was David O. Mckay (I could be wrong) said, the gospel is to make bad men good and good men better. We don't want to have our aim set at "good" or "all is well in Zion", we want our sights set on "better" or Celestial. I am a child of God, not just an angel or just a heavenly being. Those that set their sights lower than the Celestial Kingdom, such as simply being "good" will have just that if they let that become the desire of their heart, God be the judge.

[Bensalem]

As a convert, I find this discussion has ascended to such a high intellectual level as to be completely useless to me. Plus, I am just a pretty straight talking old farm girl. What ever is implied in your lofty conversation, I will say flat out that there is something special about the LDS church that I have NOT seen in a dozen other denominations in the US, or in Islam. I resist any implication that the others are just good folk and we all oughta be nice as theirs is just as good as ours, because it ain't.

My Mom was a farm girl. I sometimes wonder if I should have followed my Dad's example.

God has made a place (many mansions) for everyone in a state (heaven) where free agency allows each of us to knock and enter into a mansion according to the Word of God we have chosen to accept. We are even allowed to investigate and leave if no 'family connections' seem apparent. In this way selecting the proper house of learning is a personal matter. All denominations and religious orders have some truth, and each individual will be judged according to that truth which they have adopt into their hearts.

We in the LDS church, by our doctrine, are certainly different from others with their doctrine. We, by the Holy Ghost, are uniquely Christ's. In this difference of doctrine and Spirit, goodness must also vary, since 'goodness' and "Godliness' are inseparable. But all religions ought to be 'nice' (respectful) to each other.

[Bensalem]

A question was asked how we can keep our second estate. We do so by inheriting eternal life.

Abraham 3:26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

What is "eternal life?"

It is something that Hala said. This topic has become too much meat for some where there is only place for milk. There are many principles and truths that I did not understand before and as much as it was explained to me, it is still something that I could not understand until studying it out and learning by the Spirit. Some things CAN be taught by others. Some things can only be taught by the Spirit. Otherwise the knowledge is hollow and therefore useless.

If you are not ready to study it out, you are also not ready to understand it in your life. It took me a long time to learn this important lesson. Perhaps I sound condescending, but that is not my intention. Now if you were to read and ponder what I have challenged you to do, which will add to your light, then you will be able to properly digest it and come back to me with the right questions. But I have narrowed it down for you with some chapters that will help. Incidentally, there are Isaiah chapters that Nephi included that will contribute to the answer.

My point is to get people to think. Several years ago, I posted on here a lot and answered question after question, sharing scripture after scripture. But I'm not sure if I ever got people to think. To ponder. To pray. To study it out. To hunger. To feast. This is what we should be doing. Hala, I apologize. I think I get carried away where it is not my place. I do hope that some of my recent posts have been more enlightening than confusing.

The problem is not your condescension. Nor you asking me to read certain scriptures. It is always advisable to obtain the Spirit's input. What troubles me is your unwillingness to continue our discussion, which may have lead to an understanding of each other's view point on the matter.

You disagreed with my making the dividing line between estates as the line drawn between good and evil, which I subsequently equated to faith and rebellion, using the premortal example of Lucifer's rebellion and lose of his first estate.

Your response was to refer me to scripture, which does not clarify your position. I am sure scripture is accurate and I am sure my view does not contradict scripture. What remains unresolved is your view on what constitutes the dividing line and whether that view contradicts scripture, after all, it maybe you who has limited vision on the matter.

That is why I asked you to provide me with your interpretation of the scriptures you referenced to. And specifically please tell me how they would eliminate my position that the dividing line between each estate is good and evil (faith and rebellion).

[CarstenNorgaard]

OP:

You are not on dangerous ground, but there is an important perspective here.

There are many ways to God. He is willing to communicate and cooperate with as many who are willing to come to Him. He is happy whenever someone repents and shows Him goodwill, and shows that the person really wants to know God.

That said, this organization being "the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which [the Lord is] well pleased," The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints clearly should have something to offer that any other religious path would not.

Three quite important things that this Church can offer is a correct understanding of God's identity; the most detailed, full and rewarding perspective on the purpose of life and God's purpose with humans; and an organization that is fueled by divine power by being directly authorized by our Creator to do certain things on His behalf, which He has requested us to do to receive an eternally happy life at His hands, through covenants in particular.

From a more neutral point of view I want to say that the facts concerning the nature of God, the Plan of Salvation, and the Restoration of the true Church of God can be tested and verified. They can be thought about it. I want to bear a personal witness that some blessings can come only through the Church of God. But I also want to very strongly stress that we do not have a monopoly on truth, nor on spirituality.

It's like education. Lots of people know facts and figures, but not everyone makes it through to getting their phD and beyond. The Church provides the kind of permission, support and funding necessary to do this, and it offers this to anyone willing to undergo that transformation. It's a gem, a marvelous work and a wonder, and anyone seriously willing to know God more personally will eventually find their way to this Church, in time. :)

[norah63]

There are some in every church that seek for a closer relationship with their Heavenly Father.

The OP was saying that as I understood .

One of the things that is difficutl for me. The way the RLDS church I was raised in made it sound like you had to be so smart to really be in the proper church. Guess I'm just a farm girl, like another poster says.

If you want to know the truth of who Jesus is, and you are a sincere seeker, it will be revealed as James says.

As for where you will sit in a congregation, that is the question.