double standards?

[Misshalfway]

I'm not sure there is a double standard.

There is just emphasis to the groups that need to hear direction and guidance.

Boys and men seem to be warned about the problems of porn because many of them struggle with it and go to the bishops about it.

Girls and women are warned about being modest with their dress and to be careful not to gossip.

Those are not double standards (or intended to be compared or put as equivalents), just practical advice to who needs to hear those messages.

Regarding the group talking about it, I can't imagine they were actually suggesting porn was worse than having an affair. You could argue it is the same thing...but worse??? I think they might have been getting carried away. Bishops and SPs don't view it that way.

Well....let's just set the record straight. Men gossip as much as women do. That was one of the first lessons I learned on my mission. Lol.

And women use porn. Perhaps the numbers aren't as high, but the numbers are growing, alarmingly so. (And it's happening with younger populations which is alarming too.)

Women act out sexually probably as much as men but they act out differently....even if they are using online methods. For example, they would visit chat rooms or engage in flirtatious sexual conversations rather than go to the visual source first. Guys want the orgasm, women want the connection.

I'm not sure what to say about the comparison of porn use to having an affair. From all the research I've done on porn problems/sexual acting out, there is quite a large range of behaviors and lots of in between stuff that could very well be considered "cheating" even if it didn't involve intercourse with another person. So, I really think each case is different and I hope bishop's and stake presidents view it that way.

Maybe you can weigh in on this scenario. Let's say the husband uses porn multiple times a week for a period of 15 yrs while neglecting his wife emotionally and sexually. Let's add some manipulations, deception, and resentment in there just for fun. Now, let's say the wife hits a breaking point and sleeps with a coworker because she finally felt wanted and nurtured. Who is more at fault here? But if you ask the husband, he'd tell you that the wife's sin was far worse. If you ask the wife, her indulgence was once compared to years of similar but safer indulgence. And if it wasn't for the porn using husband, she'd probably never have done it.

[Hala401]

Well....let's just set the record straight. Men gossip as much as women do. That was one of the first lessons I learned on my mission. Lol.

And women use porn. Perhaps the numbers aren't as high, but the numbers are growing, alarmingly so. (And it's happening with younger populations which is alarming too.)

Women act out sexually probably as much as men but they act out differently....even if they are using online methods. For example, they would visit chat rooms or engage in flirtatious sexual conversations rather than go to the visual source first. Guys want the orgasm, women want the connection.

I'm not sure what to say about the comparison of porn use to having an affair. From all the research I've done on porn problems/sexual acting out, there is quite a large range of behaviors and lots of in between stuff that could very well be considered "cheating" even if it didn't involve intercourse with another person. So, I really think each case is different and I hope bishop's and stake presidents view it that way.

Maybe you can weigh in on this scenario. Let's say the husband uses porn multiple times a week for a period of 15 yrs while neglecting his wife emotionally and sexually. Let's add some manipulations, deception, and resentment in there just for fun. Now, let's say the wife hits a breaking point and sleeps with a coworker because she finally felt wanted and nurtured. Who is more at fault here? But if you ask the husband, he'd tell you that the wife's sin was far worse. If you ask the wife, her indulgence was once compared to years of similar but safer indulgence. And if it wasn't for the porn using husband, she'd probably never have done it.

Yes, and the LDS have the opportunity to approach this sin from a healing direction and not a punitive one. If you look at the deepest of human needs and how they get met or do not get met, I think there is ample opportunity to break new ground.

In every christian church I was involved in, revelation of such a sin lead to shunning, explulsion and punishment with prejudice. AND, I think that the people who trumpet the loudest about certain issues are very likely to be fighting them, themselves. The hysteria of denial is really powerful.

While I am neither psychologist, nor criminal investigator, I think that masturbation is a result of un met needs so deep that few know of them. Neglect, the feeling of being unloved and a whole constelation of issues contribute. I am not a fan of disfellowship and punishment.

[Vort]

Well....let's just set the record straight. Men gossip as much as women do. That was one of the first lessons I learned on my mission. Lol.

Not in my experience. Not even close.

[Hala401]

Not in my experience. Not even close.

Nope, I think we have ya on that one. It is the way we network and communicate. To not gossip is against our natures.

[MrShorty]

Maybe it isn't recognized as a big problem for us? Or maybe the difference is how husbands react?

A bishop told me that when a wife discovers her husband has an addiction to pornography, she cries hysterically. When husbands find out, their reaction is, "Oh. Well you need to stop doing that."

Women do seem to respond differently than men when they discover porn use in their spouse. How much of this is the cause for the "double standard," how much is the result of the "double standard," and how much of it is in the inherent sexual differences of men and women?

Maybe you can weigh in on this scenario. Let's say the husband uses porn multiple times a week for a period of 15 yrs while neglecting his wife emotionally and sexually. Let's add some manipulations, deception, and resentment in there just for fun. Now, let's say the wife hits a breaking point and sleeps with a coworker because she finally felt wanted and nurtured. Who is more at fault here? But if you ask the husband, he'd tell you that the wife's sin was far worse. If you ask the wife, her indulgence was once compared to years of similar but safer indulgence. And if it wasn't for the porn using husband, she'd probably never have done it.

Interesting hypothetical. And it does seem to be a scenario that plays out in real life, too. Here's my take.

As written, the beginning point for the dynamic is his porn use. No information is given to ask why he got involved with porn, so we'll assume he made some bad choices. He begins to prefer the virtual sex to the real world, and ceases to seek out or respond to his wife. At this point, he has to become manipulative and deceptive to keep his porn use a secret (It is interesting to me that some therapists have said that a big part of the "addictive" nature of pornography has to do with this need to keep it a secret, which could easily stem from his fear that she will "cry hysterically" upon learning about his porn use). As the sexual relationship deteriorates, she becomes frustrated and resentful, but she doesn't know the true reason for his refusal. After 15 years, that sexual frustration eventually sends her looking for a sexual relationship elsewhere, which is, ultimately, her choice.

Where I think we as an institution and a culture really fail in this kind of scenario is that we don't really acknowledge or validate the pain and frustration that comes from chronic sexual refusal/sexless marriages. In essence, as you said earlier, MissHalfway, it is part of developing a healthy relationship with and understanding of our sexuality and its place in marriage. My analysis is probably too colored by my own experience, but here's one way I see it playing out. The wife's first indication there is a problem comes as she notices them slipping into a sexless marriage. Of course, we accept that sex is "allowed" in marriage, and even "beautiful." We don't ever really acknowledge that it is important and necessary, and that sexless marriages are bad, whether the lack of sex is the cause or the result of other dysfunction in the marriage or even the only obvious problem in the marriage. Perhaps this wife's response to her sexual frustration sounds like, "what is wrong with me?! I'm a woman, and women aren't supposed to get frustrated sexually." Or, "Does he really love me if he won't have sex with me? But sex is not supposed to be a litmus test for love." She spends those early years beating up on herself, and not dealing with the presenting problem of a sexless marriage.

What would have happened if, after one month, "You haven't initiated sex, and you've rebuffed all my advances in the last month. You and I both know (because our parents/church taught us) that a sexless marriage is not healthy. What is interfering with our sex life and what can we do to keep it healthy?" Of course, he probably lies and manipulates to avoid the real reason (porn), but she persists and after a few months they end up in counseling. Hopefully at some point, he, or she or the therapist has the insight to uncover and begin to deal with his porn use, and then they can begin to deal with the root cause of the problem.

[Magen_Avot]

The only decision that, perhaps, should be made is, "does it take me closer to the Savior or further away from Him?"

Everything else is one small step into temptation or one giant leap into sin/addiction.

[Hala401]

Women do seem to respond differently than men when they discover porn use in their spouse. How much of this is the cause for the "double standard," how much is the result of the "double standard," and how much of it is in the inherent sexual differences of men and women?

Interesting hypothetical. And it does seem to be a scenario that plays out in real life, too. Here's my take.

As written, the beginning point for the dynamic is his porn use. No information is given to ask why he got involved with porn, so we'll assume he made some bad choices. He begins to prefer the virtual sex to the real world, and ceases to seek out or respond to his wife. At this point, he has to become manipulative and deceptive to keep his porn use a secret (It is interesting to me that some therapists have said that a big part of the "addictive" nature of pornography has to do with this need to keep it a secret, which could easily stem from his fear that she will "cry hysterically" upon learning about his porn use). As the sexual relationship deteriorates, she becomes frustrated and resentful, but she doesn't know the true reason for his refusal. After 15 years, that sexual frustration eventually sends her looking for a sexual relationship elsewhere, which is, ultimately, her choice.

Where I think we as an institution and a culture really fail in this kind of scenario is that we don't really acknowledge or validate the pain and frustration that comes from chronic sexual refusal/sexless marriages. In essence, as you said earlier, MissHalfway, it is part of developing a healthy relationship with and understanding of our sexuality and its place in marriage. My analysis is probably too colored by my own experience, but here's one way I see it playing out. The wife's first indication there is a problem comes as she notices them slipping into a sexless marriage. Of course, we accept that sex is "allowed" in marriage, and even "beautiful." We don't ever really acknowledge that it is important and necessary, and that sexless marriages are bad, whether the lack of sex is the cause or the result of other dysfunction in the marriage or even the only obvious problem in the marriage. Perhaps this wife's response to her sexual frustration sounds like, "what is wrong with me?! I'm a woman, and women aren't supposed to get frustrated sexually." Or, "Does he really love me if he won't have sex with me? But sex is not supposed to be a litmus test for love." She spends those early years beating up on herself, and not dealing with the presenting problem of a sexless marriage.

What would have happened if, after one month, "You haven't initiated sex, and you've rebuffed all my advances in the last month. You and I both know (because our parents/church taught us) that a sexless marriage is not healthy. What is interfering with our sex life and what can we do to keep it healthy?" Of course, he probably lies and manipulates to avoid the real reason (porn), but she persists and after a few months they end up in counseling. Hopefully at some point, he, or she or the therapist has the insight to uncover and begin to deal with his porn use, and then they can begin to deal with the root cause of the problem.

You sound relatively knowledgeable about the problem. I wonder what it would be like if we looked at somethings that I think Husbands and Wives MUST learn to understand about each other, not in the way that our culture dictates but in a new, face on way. What if they both knew the basics of the other's needs, having been taught in new married couple's classes, by a no nonsense old granny that is not afraid of just saying it. What would it be like if the husband knew that his wife needed affection, affirmations, and touching and how often? What would it be like if the wife knew that the husband thinks of sex about every 6 minutes, every waking hour. What if she knew that if he had not been bugging her in a few days, well maybe this time she'd need to get something going?

What if she knew that men are culturalized to not disclose their fears and struggles, but to just "Man UP"! I just can not imagine what it would be like to have six or seven toddlers running around, needing love and nurturing.

OTOH, perhaps the husband is working in a place where some of the women routinely just wear their shirts to work, or otherwise behave in a seductive manner.

I am reminded of the talks I had with the Missionaries where they mentioned a passage, "And the Constitution shall hang by a thread ...". Well, perhaps the LDS church is the solution to just lots of our problems. Perhaps a frank, loving and forgiving approach to societies problems is long overdue.

They rescued me, and if I can be saved ...

[Misshalfway]

Where I think we as an institution and a culture really fail in this kind of scenario is that we don't really acknowledge or validate the pain and frustration that comes from chronic sexual refusal/sexless marriages. In essence, as you said earlier, MissHalfway, it is part of developing a healthy relationship with and understanding of our sexuality and its place in marriage. My analysis is probably too colored by my own experience, but here's one way I see it playing out. The wife's first indication there is a problem comes as she notices them slipping into a sexless marriage. Of course, we accept that sex is "allowed" in marriage, and even "beautiful." We don't ever really acknowledge that it is important and necessary, and that sexless marriages are bad, whether the lack of sex is the cause or the result of other dysfunction in the marriage or even the only obvious problem in the marriage. Perhaps this wife's response to her sexual frustration sounds like, "what is wrong with me?! I'm a woman, and women aren't supposed to get frustrated sexually." Or, "Does he really love me if he won't have sex with me? But sex is not supposed to be a litmus test for love." She spends those early years beating up on herself, and not dealing with the presenting problem of a sexless marriage.

One thought on this... I'm not sure it's the sexlessness that is the problem. I think it's a symptom of the problem. The problem is disconnection. Couples need to realize that it is quality emotional intercourse that leads to quality sexual intercourse. (Notice I am not saying communication. I'm talking about something broader than that.)

One other observation..... Sexlessness is not always the manifestation of sustained porn use. Many engage in sex with their wives regularly. Many "use" their wives in various degrees such as getting a fix or getting comfort. And then there are others who see to use their wives and the marital relationship to fulfill their sexual fantasies. This can be a particularly destructive manifestation.

What would have happened if, after one month, "You haven't initiated sex, and you've rebuffed all my advances in the last month. You and I both know (because our parents/church taught us) that a sexless marriage is not healthy. What is interfering with our sex life and what can we do to keep it healthy?" Of course, he probably lies and manipulates to avoid the real reason (porn), but she persists and after a few months they end up in counseling. Hopefully at some point, he, or she or the therapist has the insight to uncover and begin to deal with his porn use, and then they can begin to deal with the root cause of the problem.

My experience with this is that what you illustrate here happens almost routinely. She confronts, he dodges or blame shifts. I think these scenarios demand a lot of compassion. It's not like porn addiction (not necessarily porn use) is obvious. You can't do a urine test. So when dude is in the bishopric or looking like super great guy, and she confronts with no evidence or shaking evidence, and then he lies, what is left but self doubt? Anyone would self doubt in that circumstance.

Edited July 9, 2012 by Misshalfway

[Hala401]

I fear that couples with lots of children and responsibilities do not have the time to root out the real causation. And neither person in the marriage can be expected to always be the one to root out the problem.

The woman assumes she is not desireable; cared for. The Husband does what ever he does and no one solves it. Neither seem able to realise that "It is not always about them".

[Guest]

The only decision that, perhaps, should be made is, "does it take me closer to the Savior or further away from Him?"

Everything else is one small step into temptation or one giant leap into sin/addiction.

How about neither? I mean, I can read a book like The Cat in the Hat and not feel it getting me closer nor farther away from the Savior. I just like reading about Thing 1 and Thing 2... well, of course, I have read the book trying to philosophically think through the last question too... but, I can read something like... Maximum Ride and not find the need to analyze it for its distance to the Savior...

Edited July 9, 2012 by anatess

[MrShorty]

The only decision that, perhaps, should be made is, "does it take me closer to the Savior or further away from Him?"

Everything else is one small step into temptation or one giant leap into sin/addiction.

As anatess pointed out, there are a lot of "neutral" things that neither draw one closer to the Savior nor push away from. How do we judge which of these neutral things to partake of, which to leave alone, and, perhaps most importantly, how to judge my neighbor when he/she decides to partake of something neutral that I don't like.

This also seems to make "porn" in the eye of the beholder. Two people stop in front of Michelangelo's "David" . One says, "A naked man! How disgusting! I think I'm going to vomit in my shoe, then talk to the curator about getting this piece of filth taken down." The other says, "A naked man! How beautiful! What a fitting tribute to man's Creator who made him 'a little lower than the angels.'" Are we prepared to let everyone decide for themselves what is pornographic and what is just good art?

[Hala401]

Ripfoster's discussion in the book club section about a certain book has triggered a response in me, that I wanted to bring here for separate discussion.

Re: porn -- do we as a culture have different standards and responses for men and women using porn?

Of course, I don't believe God has a double standard. I'm not even sure I believe the church and its leaders have a double standard (though it seems they have spent a lot more time and energy preaching to men against visual porn than preaching to women about written porn).

What I'm wondering about is more cultural/personal. I recall a blog entry on a feminist blog where the blogger described a dinner party with a handful of Mormon couples. The discussion turned to porn and the women in the party decided that porn use was automatic grounds for divorce. When pressed, they even decided that porn use was worse than adultery and a stronger cause for divorce than an affair. Would we ever say the same thing about erotic romance novels?

If a group of priesthood holders who got together monthly to play video games decided at one meeting that they were going to check out some "nude art," would our response be, "I think it is disgusting, but hopefully after a few picture they will realize they are in the wrong and decide to go back to playing games." or would our response be more visceral?

If there is a double standard, does it have a basis in reality? Do men respond differently to visual porn than women respond to written porn?

In looking at the first post in this thread, I must say that I think the original premiss is I think rather shallow. In light of the information that I have seen over the years, addiction to pornography is much more wide spread in our culture, to include the LDS culture than anyone has so far admitted. And, shockingly women also struggle with it, though I do not know if it is to the extent that men do.

For this thread to mean anything at all; something different than the usual smug back patting session that these sorts of things engender. I am wondering when someone will step up and own up to having or having had a problem?

I had a problem with it and it ended a 40 year marriage. I took steps to prevent it ever happening again, though will carry the pain and guilt to my grave. It is by the power of the Atonement that I stay alive today. Come on folks, I know that I am not alone.