Rep Or Dem Or Other? Poll...how Did You Vote?

[sgallan]

And well gee..... my 20 hours a week of community service, my being an instructor to inmates (including visiting the prisons though it is not required), and my being the (tough) substitute teacher for this district, while trying to raise a gifted child as a single dad.... doing this with a MBA and the credentials to make a LOT more money...... as well as being a father figure for two exceptional needs children, doesn't count either.

Yup..... I am better off dead in a dysfunctional health care system that doesn't care that people like me slip through the cracks. You guys rock. My little one has a lot of empathy (she used to talk to the retarded cerebal palsy child I subbed for everyday on the phone - and it made his day). Your cold hearted political views will surely win her over.

[Palerider]

you pack your own chute.....instead of complaining.....why don't you do something about it.....

[BenRaines]

Hey I admire anyone who can make it as a single parent. A single parent and giving all the service you give is great.

I am not judging but would be interested in knowing how someone with an advanced degree is only able to find substitute teacher work. Is it a choice to be able to have time with your daughter and do your other service or is it the only work you can find?

Ben Raines

[sgallan]

Is it a choice to be able to have time with your daughter and do your other service or is it the only work you can find?

It is a choice - I could test for a full time teaching position, and/or could be a full time (junior) Professor if I chose. I can have my pick of retail management positions with my background as well. My child is more important than my professional aspirations. As are those kids. They are the innocents. Shame on a society that punishes people like myself.

[BenRaines]

I too would like to take more time to dedicate to serving others besides the time I volunteer to a group called Civitan, we support a shelter for abused women and a shelter for babies of drug mothers. I also give service to Boy Scouts of America with Cub Scouts and church service, visiting single sisters and giving them support. If I could afford to work part time I could give more time but I do like the things I can do with what I earn in my work and what I can give to others.

Some day when I can retire I will be able to give more time.

Oh we have struggled for the last 30 years so that my wife could stay home and be with our children. We gave up a lot so that she could be there.

Just so you know a little more about me.

Ben Raines

[prisonchaplain]

You took the bait. Thanks for the illustration of why your party lost the recent election. Republicans, especially the conservative religious ones, are mean and don't really care about any save their own.

Okay, I'm biting again. You've outed me, Scott. The PC is a Republican. And, I'll give you credit. The healthcare system is a mess. I've got a secure (literally, lol) government job with health insured subsidized at about 75%. I still pay $200 per month, $20 co-pays for basic, $30 for specialists. Last year I got a Health Savings Account with $1200, and ran out by September.

So, if I'm feeling it, I can only imagine those with jobs that don't provide, and state/local govts that don't at least subsidize.

I'm not convinced that nationalizing healthcare is the answer, but the status quo isn't either. I'm not sure what is. I will go oversees to get medical care done that isn't covered here. South Korea is still about 25% of our costs here. India is cheaper yet. "Medical tourism" is becoming a signficant industry.

But again, that is for those who have enough means. What of those that don't? I don't have any answers, so color me a moderate on this issue.

PS - This is just what I was looking for. I plan on using this little back and forth as a lesson for my kid (homeschooled) tommorrow. It should help make my case against "religion". Thanks for your help.....

Scott, be fair. Their are conservative Republican atheists, and liberal Democrat Christians. Religion (not God, not true faith, but religion itself) is neutral. It can motivate the good to be even better, and the bad to be even worse.

I wonder how much more would be needed to make sure everyone had health care and a living wage or for those who choose not to work a govt. check. Not sure if I can make enough money to afford it.

Ben Raines

I've been told that healthcare represents 17% of the GNP. Don't know how that would translate in taxes.

[miztrniceguy]

And well gee..... my 20 hours a week of community service, my being an instructor to inmates (including visiting the prisons though it is not required), and my being the (tough) substitute teacher for this district, while trying to raise a gifted child as a single dad.... doing this with a MBA and the credentials to make a LOT more money...... as well as being a father figure for two exceptional needs children, doesn't count either.

Yup..... I am better off dead in a dysfunctional health care system that doesn't care that people like me slip through the cracks. You guys rock. My little one has a lot of empathy (she used to talk to the retarded cerebal palsy child I subbed for everyday on the phone - and it made his day). Your cold hearted political views will surely win her over.

maybe you ought to evaluate the balance you have between needs of yourself and your family and others. my advice would be to look for a better position that would allow you time home, yet provide healthcare, and worry about service to you and your daughter before others.

i'm not saying dont volunteer, just that maybe volunteer less.

just my 2 cents

[Maureen]

Well lets see. As it is right now more than 40% of my check goes for Federal Income Tax, no State Tax, Social Security and other Federal taxes. I wonder how much more would be needed to make sure everyone had health care...

Not sure why you would have to purchase everyone's health care, I'm sure your family's would suffice.

For example, here in Alberta, through my work (paycheque), I contribute $77.72 monthly. This covers myself and my family and gives us Alberta Health Care (covers visits to the doctor, hospital stay), Extended Health Care (Vision care (eye glasses discount), Orthondontist services (contributes $3000.00 towards braces for each member (if necessary), perscription discount (I only pay 20%)) and Dental (basic dental services, cleaning, exrays, fillings (I pay anywhere from no costs to half the cost)).

I am fortunate because this is part of my work contract with my Employer (I am a member of the bargaining union as opposed to management).

For people who do not have benefits with their Employer or are Self-Employed, Alberta Health Care is still very affordable. We have a good health care system, but it costs the government lots of money. The negative side is the waiting time for surgery and emergency room service. The process eventually has to change or they're going to run out of money. Even health care needs to evolve to survive.

M.

[Fiannan]

You know, in Sweden, when they originally adopted national health care, they came up with a plan to lower costs -- sterilize people who had health problems, social disorders, mental conditions, etc. Snipped about 70,000 people between the late 1930s and mid 1970s. Probably reduced the number of people needed services today. Think they had a good plan? I mean, if we all have to pay for each other then maybe...

[pushka]

I have debated the issue of 'free' health care, provided by Governments on these forums many times.

No health care is completely free, as even here in the UK we pay National Insurance contributions, which help subsidise our health care, including dental costs. The only people who do not pay for any health care costs..including dental, are those on very low incomes who have to be in receipt of income support.

I do not feel that ALL republican/conservative/religious or otherwise people are mean and nasty, and I do appreciate charitable acts/contributions from any source...but I do feel that it is necessary in any community, in any part of the world, to have a subsidised health care plan available to all. To those who wish to have a quicker, plusher health care provided, they may pay extra for it...but a basic structure must be in place for those who cannot afford it. We cannot allow people to die from need.

I know that not all unemployed people are genuinly searching for employment, on the other hand not all employers are giving good working/pay conditions to their workers, and therefore it is not fair for unemployed people to be forced to work ANYWHERE, in spite of working/payment conditions, just so that the government can say it has a lower unemployment problem than elsewhere, and so that it can take national insurance/tax payments from them, even though they are still living in need.

[prisonchaplain]

Could it be that the LDS social care system produces a resistance to subsidized government programs. If I understand correctly, part of the tithe goes to church social welfare programs. Also, members are encouraged to help each other out. Perhaps there is even some instruction to avoid public assistance if possible. So, since so much is given within the house of God, members may feel less able to give outside--via higher taxes?

[Guest MrsS]

Could it be that the LDS social care system produces a resistance to subsidized government programs. If I understand correctly, part of the tithe goes to church social welfare programs. Also, members are encouraged to help each other out. Perhaps there is even some instruction to avoid public assistance if possible. So, since so much is given within the house of God, members may feel less able to give outside--via higher taxes?

On our tithing slips there is a place for us to indicate what $ amount of our total tithe to go to, in order on the list it is:

Tithing; Fast Offering; Ward Missionary; General Missionary; Book of Mormon; Humanitarian Aid; Temple Construction; Perpetual education; Other(Specify). Tithing is a minimum of 10% of your Gross wages, Fast Offering is a minimum of the $ amount of the two meals you fasted. The rest is what ever $ amount you wish to make. When my nephew in Georgia was on his mission, I tithed $20.00 a month - made out a separate tithing slip, marked Other (Specify) and sent it to his Ward in Georgia. He then received this money every month. Not only did I tithe for him, so did our entire family (three aunts and two uncles along with 4 under 16 year old cousins).

Not only do we tithe towards the church welfare programs and to the Humanitarian Aid (which by the way helps non-members) we also donate and make clothing, quilts, items for hygiene kits, etc. See Gospel Library, this months issue of New Era, there are two stories: Learning to Hope and Bailey to the Rescue. (you will have to go to HTML, click on the + to the left of Magazines, click on the + to the left of New Era, click on 2006, click on the + to the left of November - they start the third or fourth story down) [[When I try this after I click on HTML it takes me to the last screen I had been on previously, so I click on the Back button on my browser,then click on Church Publications, that puts me in the proper screen, then you can follow the rest of the directions= mags, New Era, etc.]]

When I was receiving help from the Church I was never told to not accept help from the City/County/State/Government. Matter of fact, I was encouraged to find help in any form that I could. I was counseled to NOT go on welfare with the intent of staying on it. I found a wonderful federally funded program, was re-trained and they helped me with every step of the process of getting another career. They held me up with the depression hit, when I just could not go to another interview. They taught me to do a good resume and cover letter, they taught me the new job hunting lingo.

The Church was right there with me every step of the way too. When I was really down, my Branch President was on the phone with my councilor on the federal program and they both brainstormed how to get me up and going. What a combo!

The Church welfare program is set up to assist you. There is no way it is going to provide for you forever. You are encourage to get out and look for work, they help you to find work, they will help you make up a resume, cover letter, help you to find schooling, hold your hand and pick you up/dust you off/ and encourage you to keep holding to the rod!

The US Government can learn a lot from the LDS way of doing things.

So PC, not only do we give much within the Church we give mucho much outside of the Church. This we do willingly, and with a glad and joyful heart and very, very little publicity.

Take a stroll through providentliving.com

[pushka]

I'm really happy to hear about how the Church programmes work towards helping members and non-members alike who are in difficulties. I agree that all should be encouraged/enabled to find suitable employment, within their capacity. All should be encouraged to be knowledgeable about their employment rights, imo, also.

Just a little trivia here. Last night on UK tv, Jimmy Osmond and some of his family won 'All Stars Family Fortunes', they donated their £30,000 prize money to the LDS Humanitarian Aid projects and gave a little profile of what it is, and some of the work it does...very nice! :)

[Dror]

i voted in public

Me, too. There weren't even curtains around my voting booth!

[Dror]

Could it be that the LDS social care system produces a resistance to subsidized government programs. If I understand correctly, part of the tithe goes to church social welfare programs. Also, members are encouraged to help each other out. Perhaps there is even some instruction to avoid public assistance if possible. So, since so much is given within the house of God, members may feel less able to give outside--via higher taxes?

PC,

It may well be that some feel overextended by giving a lot within the Church and by taxes, etc. But, as GardenGirl pointed out, not everybody feels that way.

The Church does not instruct people to avoid public assistance if they are in need. (In fact, sometimes I think Church leaders would rather that people get public assistance than help from the Church!) It does teach that people should do everything possible to be "self-sufficient," that is, to get off welfare as soon as possible. (The reason I put "self-sufficient" in quotation marks is that I don't believe in self-sufficiency. That is, I don't believe it exists. Nobody is entirely self-sufficient--we all need other people and, most of all, we need God. We therefore should not begrudge people our aid when they need it. However, there is a flip side--people who are in need today, although they need not feel ashamed of needing to receive aid, should be willing to return the favor by doing what they can not to burden their benefactors, and when they are able, to help others in their turn. So, even though I don't believe in the concept of self-sufficiency, the Church's aims and mine are essentially the same. It's largely a question of attitude, rather than goals. )

[sgallan]

Religion (not God, not true faith, but religion itself) is neutral. It can motivate the good to be even better, and the bad to be even worse.

I'll be a bit balanced with religion in general..... I do let my kid go to church (on her own mind you) from time to time.... so I am not all that dogmatic. But if I have a preference it is she is not religious, or perhaps not Christian (Diest, Baha'i, or Buddhist would be better from my POV)

Politically speaking religion as practiced as a political entity in this country, is hardly nuetral. With the debate (still) dominated by those on the conservative spectrum. The so-called moralists (who I do not consider all that moral due to debates such as this). Very often those who are the harshest about people in my situation, are also those who are proud card carrying Republicans of the religious right. If you want an example of what I am talking about, then the results of the poll on this thread, and the harshness of the attitudes - even when there is a real person attached to the situation - pretty much speaks for itself.

maybe you ought to evaluate the balance you have between needs of yourself and your family and others. my advice would be to look for a better position that would allow you time home, yet provide healthcare, and worry about service to you and your daughter before others.

The service to the others includes my daughter. It isn't possible to cut back on the one without cutting back on the other. I have the luck, and maybe the curse of being a single parent of an athletically gifted child. Who exactly is going to coach her? Take her, or arrange for her to go all of the country (and in a few years the world)? I will white knuckle it for awhile and hope for the best. Once I get this one raised...... then I don't care. I could die anytime after that and plan on going out with "my boots on" so to speak.

One reason I consider this nation - for all of it's military strength and economic power - as being one of the more harsh nations in the industrialized world is for all of it's might and power, it is unable to take care of it's citizenry in something as essential and basic as our very lives. I consider the citizens of this nation in general every bit as harsh. I can easily see why the rest of the world think us as arrogant bullies.... we even treat our own citizens like this.

FWIW...... perhaps with the change in the political climate there is going to be an easing of the harshness that is this nation. That it went on so long, and got so mean, is why I changed from a ticket splitter to voting Democrat across the board. In a very general way Republicans, and especially conservative Republicans, and even more especially religious conservatives, are fairly brutal and mean, to any except those who believe as they do. They don't really care all that much about what happens to the rest.

[prisonchaplain]

So PC, not only do we give much within the Church we give mucho much outside of the Church. This we do willingly, and with a glad and joyful heart and very, very little publicity. Take a stroll through providentliving.com

The President's faith-based initiative was based on the very notion--that people of faith are better at helping those who struggle, because they address physical, psychological and spiritual needs--and it's person to person. Of course, Americans for the Separation of Church and State and the ACLU don't see it that way.

[prisonchaplain]

Politically speaking religion as practiced as a political entity in this country, is hardly nuetral. With the debate (still) dominated by those on the conservative spectrum.

Some social conservatives are harsh. Additionally, on a personal level, most reporters are socially liberal. So, the conservative Christian right doesn't get a very fair shake, imho. Sometimes clips are edited to seem much more cavalier thant they are. Then again, sometimes we give ammo to our political opponents.

This lack of nuance from our opponents was probably most dramatically illustrated to me when the Highline School District Superintendent declared, in a public forum, that he could not see the difference between Al Qaida and the Christian Coalition (this, less than a year after 9/11). So, there is plenty of harshness and dogmatism on both sides of the aisle.

The religious right is politically easy to define: Ban most forms of abortion, gambling and pornography, allow some forms of public religious expression, permit the introduction of theistic explanations of human origins, and ban discrimination against religious clubs and non-profits--especially by public schools.

As you read the list, if you believe in "loyal opposition," you may find areas of disagreement, but you'll not see impending Christian Shari'ah.

BTW, the debate you had about healthcare was more of a straight conservative vs. liberal one, vs. a "religious right" matter.

[sgallan]

PC -

True that it is also a conservative debate and not just versus a religious conservative one. But it has been my experience having been engaged in the political process for about 28 years now, that the religious conservative is also solidly on the opposite side of what I am debating. Plus, on this particular board, I think it is safe to say many of the political views have significant religious underpinnings.

As far as the debate entotal I will say it is not 'just' a conservative religious paradigm' that often has this great nation, as also being a harsh one. It is just part of being a United States American in my view and is a tendency that went to far to the meaner aspects of our personna of late. It is the part of ourselves we often don't like to admit..... often with those offended by suggesting "love it or get out"..... which sort of defeats the purpose of a Democratic Republic.

[BenRaines]

How about "Love it or change it". We will see in the coming years how dedicated the elected members of our US Congress are to making change happen.

Since this thread was started as a political thread and not one discussing forum members need for medical care how about we discuss what parties have promised to do. Republican or Democrat and how they have failed to deliver. Both parties on each side are guilty of this. Also for taking credit for something they did not do.

Ben Raines