Js And Other Churches

[Tr2]

We don't know why exactly JS attended the Methodist Church

Because he didn't think much of the mormon church idea that he was given. When I am not satsified with something, I usually shop around, just like everybody else.

[Outshined]

Originally posted by Cal@Mar 16 2004, 06:47 PM

You're not JS, and had not just been told by God to join none of them. I would think that an answer to JS's question about the churches in his neigborhood might have left a stronger impression on him. JS seems to be behaving as though no such question had been answered.

JS was also a teenager at the time. He sought out the minister and discussed the vision, and was scolded over it. I can see how a kid would seek guidance from someone in a position of religious leadership, even if they were in the wrong church. I can also see how horrified the minister probably was.

His attendance is not indicative of anything insidious that I can see. As I said, I have attended churches that I knew were not the right one, often because they were the only church available at the time. As many critics do, I think you're trying to read far more into the situation than there was.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Outshined+Mar 16 2004, 06:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Outshined @ Mar 16 2004, 06:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Mar 16 2004, 06:47 PM

You're not JS, and had not just been told by God to join none of them. I would think that an answer to JS's question about the churches in his neigborhood might have left a stronger impression on him. JS seems to be behaving as though no such question had been answered.

JS was also a teenager at the time. He sought out the minister and discussed the vision, and was scolded over it. I can see how a kid would seek guidance from someone in a position of religious leadership, even if they were in the wrong church. I can also see how horrified the minister probably was.

His attendance is not indicative of anything insidious that I can see. As I said, I have attended churches that I knew were not the right one, often because they were the only church available at the time. As many critics do, I think you're trying to read far more into the situation than there was.

Wait a minute, JS had just been told by God himself, face to face, to join none of the Churches and that they were all wrong--drawing near with their mouths etc. How much clearer could the answer have been. Why would JS need to consult some minister of a church he had just been told by God was false? Makes no sense to me. But, perhaps the issue goes no further than what we have all discussed.

[Outshined]

Perhaps you should just think back to when you were that age. That's a lot to lay on the shoulers of a kid that young, wouldn't you say? His first instinct would be to share what he had seen and heard with a person of authority, perceived or otherwise. And he didn't join any of the other churches, he simply attended.

Well, that's my opinion, anyway. It's what I think I may have done as a kid that age, if confronted by such an enormous event.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Tr2@Mar 16 2004, 05:59 PM

Because he didn't think much of the mormon church idea that he was given.

BZZZ!

Nope, stupid idea.

[Guest curvette]

According to Trident's link, it was after Joseph had married Emma that he attended the Methodist church. Even so, she was his wife, she was a Methodist, he hadn't organized the LDS church yet, his wife had recently lost her firstborn and probably felt the need to be accompanied to church...What's the big deal? I find the money digging scheme much more disturbing than the fact that he went to a Methodist meeting with his wife.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Snow+Mar 16 2004, 07:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Mar 16 2004, 07:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Tr2@Mar 16 2004, 05:59 PM

Because he didn't think much of the mormon church idea that he was given.

BZZZ!

Nope, stupid idea.

I agree with Snow---not much of a theory. Besides, we don't know for sure whether JS knew he was going to be setting up something like, what we now know as, the Mormon church; so how can you speculate as to JS's state of mind about something he didn't even comprehend himself at the time.

The whole thing must have seemed like an "out of body" experience to him, if what he said happened, actually did happen. Who really knows?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Cal+Mar 16 2004, 05:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Mar 16 2004, 05:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Mar 16 2004, 05:41 PM

Cal,

We don't know why exactly JS attended the Methodist Church, but I do know a possible reason that is much more plausible and fits the known facts than your idea that he joined (which he didn't) the Methodist Church out of some suspicious reason - like he was lying and committing fraud.

I will tell you the reason later, right now I have to go out do the mambo with a pretty little filly from San Antone.

Snow--No, but it is consistent with such a theory.

Cal,

I see the point but counter that it is not consistent with the fraud angle. If JS had been doing the preliminary work or the fraud angle for five years, I doubt he would do something to sabotage it then, if only for attending sunday school in a future competitors church, when he was so close to rolling the fraud out. Your idea that his associating with a Methodists being consistent with a supposed fraud is just the opposite was what one might do in that circumstance.

First, JS did not join the Methodist Church. There is no record of any such event. What happened was that in a very dark period in Joseph's life, having lost the 116 pages, having lost the U&T, having spent a year or so with the plates and nothing to show for it, JS was down, borrowing and scrapping by to feed his family. Even Emma's family gave no help. It was then that JS and Emma attended a few Methodist meetings.

Why?

-Because it was part of a supposed fraud plan? No, that makes no sense.

-Because he was abandoning a supposed fraud plan? No, shortly thereafter the real BoM translation work really took off.

-Because he came to believe that the Methodist Church offered an acceptably true way to worship? No, I have attended other religions approx. 15 times in the past 2 years. I didn't attend because I thought it was truer than my own faith. Outshined was right. Joseph stayed the course of his calling.

So why then? What idea makes sense?

Probably to placate Emma's family and thus make nice with Emma who was struggling mightly under the sacrifice placed upon her and Joseph. One of Emma's uncles preached as a Methodist lay miinister. A brother-in-law was a class leader. Joseph was said to have asked the circuit preacher to be enrolled in the class. A cousin of Emma objected the inclusion of a "practicing necromancer," demanded repentance of Joseph. Since JS had nothing to repent of - not from the Methodists, he withdrew. For some unknown reason, his name remained on the roll for another six months, although there is no record of his attendance.

Beyond that, you have the credibility factor. The account is late, 40 to 60 years (depending on the accreditation) after the event and is told by a non-friendly.

[Snow]

Originally posted by curvette@Mar 16 2004, 07:30 PM

I find the money digging scheme much more disturbing than the fact that he went to a Methodist meeting with his wife.

I don't find much if anything to be disturbed about in that. More later, right now I have to go see a man about a horse and then plant some evidence on a innocentbystander...

[Tr2]

What happened was that in a very dark period in Joseph's life, having lost the 116 pages, having lost the U&T, having spent a year or so with the plates and nothing to show for it, JS was down, borrowing and scrapping by to feed his family

Ah, the 116 lost pages. I think the best description of this belongs to M.T. Lamb, "Joseph Smith's attempt to save the Book of Mormon by rewriting the beginning".

I find the money digging scheme much more disturbing than the fact that he went to a Methodist meeting with his wife.

It's about Smith's credibility. If I claimed to have some kind of encounter with God where he told me that the mormon church was of the devil, and then tried to become a member of the mormon church, would you consider my claims of an encounter with God to be valid? Of course not.

First, JS did not join the Methodist Church. There is no record of any such event

Because they did not allow him to join.

I agree with Snow---not much of a theory

Oh well if you two don't agree then there is no possible way it could be otherwise. How silly of me.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Tr2@Mar 16 2004, 09:20 PM

Because they did not allow him to join.

Okay here's your big chance to say something rational. If you do, I will forever swear, on a stack of Navy-Ranger-SeAl-Brown Berret, terrorist fighting, GI Jean-Jaque medals you never earned in a service you never joined, that I will never say an unkind word about your mother again --- Give us the evidence that JS tried to join the Methodist Church.

Come on brave boy, show me the evidence.

Buyah!

Come on now good buddy.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Snow+Mar 16 2004, 07:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Mar 16 2004, 07:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--curvette@Mar 16 2004, 07:30 PM

I find the money digging scheme much more disturbing than the fact that he went to a Methodist meeting with his wife.

I don't find much if anything to be disturbed about in that. More later, right now I have to go see a man about a horse and then plant some evidence on a innocentbystander...

Okay, I'm back now. I got a palmino that we are boiling down for glue tomorrow.

Why is it disturbing that JS was a treasure seeker? Certainly you are aware of the plethora of recent literature that show just how prevalent such activities were in JS's milleau. See Quinn or Herbert Leventhal, In the Shadow of the Enlightenment: Occultism and Renaissance Science in Eighteeth-Century America (New York University Press 1976) -- That culture, combined with the ubiquitous reports of lost mines and buried treasure fueled the practice of money digging that all classes, save the most intellectually progressive, engaged in.

Why should JS have been immune? Given what he had experienced, it seems reasonable that he should suppose himself specially gifted in such pursuits. He came to realize the truth of the matter and put it behind him and maintained a sense of humor about it, commenting that he was never any good at it and even specifying his wages for a Church newpaper.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Snow@Mar 16 2004, 10:15 PM

Why should JS have been immune? Given what he had experienced, it seems reasonable that he should suppose himself specially gifted in such pursuits. He came to realize the truth of the matter and put it behind him and maintained a sense of humor about it, commenting that he was never any good at it and even specifying his wages for a Church newpaper.

This is one of the parts that disturbed me:

<<Their digging in several places was in compliance with peeper Smith’s revelations, who would attend with his peep-stone in his hat, and his hat drawn over his face, and would tell them how deep they would have to go; but when they would find no trace of the chest of money, he would peep again, and weep like a child, and tell them the enchantment had removed it on account of some sin or thoughtless word; finally the enchantment became so strong that he could not see, and so the business was abandoned. Smith could weep and shed tears in abundance at any time, if he chose.>>

This is, of course, simply hearsay. Maybe it didn't happen that way. If it did though, I can see how it can cast doubt on Joseph Smith's abilities to discern true spiritual truth from wishful thought.

[srm]

Originally posted by curvette+Mar 17 2004, 11:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Mar 17 2004, 11:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Mar 16 2004, 10:15 PM

Why should JS have been immune? Given what he had experienced, it seems reasonable that he should suppose himself specially gifted in such pursuits. He came to realize the truth of the matter and put it behind him and maintained a sense of humor about it, commenting that he was never any good at it and even specifying his wages for a Church newpaper.

This is one of the parts that disturbed me:

<<Their digging in several places was in compliance with peeper Smith’s revelations, who would attend with his peep-stone in his hat, and his hat drawn over his face, and would tell them how deep they would have to go; but when they would find no trace of the chest of money, he would peep again, and weep like a child, and tell them the enchantment had removed it on account of some sin or thoughtless word; finally the enchantment became so strong that he could not see, and so the business was abandoned. Smith could weep and shed tears in abundance at any time, if he chose.>>

This is, of course, simply hearsay. Maybe it didn't happen that way. If it did though, I can see how it can cast doubt on Joseph Smith's abilities to discern true spiritual truth from wishful thought.

please provide the source.

[Snow]

I'm with SRM.

What's the source and then let's discuss it.

[srm]

Originally posted by Snow@Mar 17 2004, 12:02 PM

I'm with SRM.

What's the source and then let's discuss it.

I'm just guessing....Hurlbut?

[Tr2]

Give us the evidence that JS tried to join the Methodist Church

Oh so now you are concerned about evidence? Interesting how evidence has never been much of a concern what I was asking for it.

If you can show me some evidence that Joseph Smith had any encounters with angels where he received all the revelation he claimed. Or show me evidence of any golden plates, or whatever they were made of.

You do this and I'll do my best to show any evidence that may exist about Smith and the Methodists. Since you've been unable to show evidence in te past, I won't hold my breath.

[Guest curvette]

I was referring to the link earlier in the thread.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Snow@Mar 16 2004, 07:42 PM

Cal,

We don't know why exactly JS attended the Methodist Church, but I do know a possible reason that is much more plausible and fits the known facts than your idea that he joined (which he didn't) the Methodist Church out of some suspicious reason - like he was lying and committing fraud.

I will tell you the reason later, right now I have to go out do the mambo with a pretty little filly from San Antone.

Snow--No, but it is consistent with such a theory.

Cal,

I see the point but counter that it is not consistent with the fraud angle. If JS had been doing the preliminary work or the fraud angle for five years, I doubt he would do something to sabotage it then, if only for attending sunday school in a future competitors church, when he was so close to rolling the fraud out. Your idea that his associating with a Methodists being consistent with a supposed fraud is just the opposite was what one might do in that circumstance.

First, JS did not join the Methodist Church. There is no record of any such event. What happened was that in a very dark period in Joseph's life, having lost the 116 pages, having lost the U&T, having spent a year or so with the plates and nothing to show for it, JS was down, borrowing and scrapping by to feed his family. Even Emma's family gave no help. It was then that JS and Emma attended a few Methodist meetings.

Why?

-Because it was part of a supposed fraud plan? No, that makes no sense.

-Because he was abandoning a supposed fraud plan? No, shortly thereafter the real BoM translation work really took off.

-Because he came to believe that the Methodist Church offered an acceptably true way to worship? No, I have attended other religions approx. 15 times in the past 2 years. I didn't attend because I thought it was truer than my own faith. Outshined was right. Joseph stayed the course of his calling.

So why then? What idea makes sense?

Probably to placate Emma's family and thus make nice with Emma who was struggling mightly under the sacrifice placed upon her and Joseph. One of Emma's uncles preached as a Methodist lay miinister. A brother-in-law was a class leader. Joseph was said to have asked the circuit preacher to be enrolled in the class. A cousin of Emma objected the inclusion of a "practicing necromancer," demanded repentance of Joseph. Since JS had nothing to repent of - not from the Methodists, he withdrew. For some unknown reason, his name remained on the roll for another six months, although there is no record of his attendance.

Beyond that, you have the credibility factor. The account is late, 40 to 60 years (depending on the accreditation) after the event and is told by a non-friendly.

Snow--

For your argument to make sense you have to ASSUME that JS really did have a "first vision" OR was "planning" to; in which case your argument makes sense. But if JS did not "plan" at the time he attended the Methodist church to have a "first vision" then there would be no reason for him to avoid the Methodists--it wouldn't have seemed like a problem at that point, even if he WAS perpetuating a fraud. IOW, the first vision, at that point, was not a part of the fraud, it only became such LATER (at which time he either had forgotten attending the methodists or didn't think that anyone would find a problem with it.)

[Snow]

Originally posted by curvette@Mar 17 2004, 01:50 PM

I was referring to the link earlier in the thread.

Curvette,

Have you ever read Sounding Brass (Informal studies of the lucrative art of telling stories about Brigham Young and the Mormons)?

Part 1. In My Minds Eye Horation...

Part 2. The Two-faced Monster

Part 3. How To Write an Anti-Mormon Book

Part 4. It Fairly Seers the Screen

Part 5. Is There a Danite in the House

I have enough trouble keeping track of things real without getting sucked into the hyperbole of ancient anti-Mormon rhetoric.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Cal@Mar 17 2004, 04:54 PM

Snow--

For your argument to make sense you have to ASSUME that JS really did have a "first vision" OR was "planning" to; in which case your argument makes sense....

Cal,

I'm not sure I follow your line of reasoning, but yes, I assume that JS did have or did purport to have a vision. This thing with the Methodist was 8 years later. JS have told people about his vision 8 years earlier and had been telling people for year about the gold plates that were to have come into his possession the year before.

[Outshined]

Originally posted by Snow@Mar 17 2004, 08:17 PM

Curvette,

Have you ever read Sounding Brass (Informal studies of the lucrative art of telling stories about Brigham Young and the Mormons)?

Part 1. In My Minds Eye Horation...

Part 2. The Two-faced Monster

Part 3. How To Write an Anti-Mormon Book

Part 4. It Fairly Seers the Screen

Part 5. Is There a Danite in the House

I have enough trouble keeping track of things real without getting sucked into the hyperbole of ancient anti-Mormon rhetoric.

I've been meaning to read that book......

[Cal]

Originally posted by Snow+Mar 17 2004, 07:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Mar 17 2004, 07:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Mar 17 2004, 04:54 PM

Snow--

For your argument to make sense you have to ASSUME that JS really did have a "first vision" OR  was "planning" to; in which case your argument makes sense....

Cal,

I'm not sure I follow your line of reasoning, but yes, I assume that JS did have or did purport to have a vision. This thing with the Methodist was 8 years later. JS have told people about his vision 8 years earlier and had been telling people for year about the gold plates that were to have come into his possession the year before.

I would like your reference for the fact that JS told people about his vision at the time.

If he did tell others about the vision--did any of the accounts say that God had told him to join none of the churches?

[srm]

Snow--

For your argument to make sense you have to ASSUME that JS really did have a "first vision" OR  was "planning" to; in which case your argument makes sense....

Cal,

I'm not sure I follow your line of reasoning, but yes, I assume that JS did have or did purport to have a vision. This thing with the Methodist was 8 years later. JS have told people about his vision 8 years earlier and had been telling people for year about the gold plates that were to have come into his possession the year before.

I would like your reference for the fact that JS told people about his vision at the time.

If he did tell others about the vision--did any of the accounts say that God had told him to join none of the churches?

In the official account Joseph said that he shared the info with a Methodist preacher. And that when he did share it was met with great persecution...

[Tr2]

???