What is free will?

[Dravin]

It's basically an issue of semantics. "Free Agency" is the term used by God in the scriptures.

Can you provide a reference for these scriptures or the scripture that uses the term "free agency"? The only place I'm seeing it mentioned is in the Topic Guide and The Guide to the Scriptures, both refer the searcher to other terms such as agency, sans the free.

[C_T_R]

Where in scripture (standard works) is the term "free agency" used?

The Traveler

Moses 7:

32 The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;

Moses 4:

3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;

4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.

D&C 101:

78 That every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment.

Also, to better define it, under the Topical Guide: Agency

"Free agency" is in study guides, and is taught in doctrine in church, and all the seminary and institute classes I've attended. Another issue of semantics, I believe. If you see a difference between free agency and agency, let me know. They're saying the same things in this context.

Edited August 30, 2012 by C_T_R

[Dravin]

Moses 7:

32 The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;

Moses 4:

3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;

4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.

D&C 101:

78 That every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment.

Also, to better define it, under the Topical Guide: Agency

Not a single one of those scriptures uses the phrase "free agency". They do use agency, but the phrase "free agency" is not used.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Dravin

[C_T_R]

Really? You're hung up on the 'free' part? They're saying the same thing. :) If you've ever attended any meetings, or classes run by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints they will, without fail, use the term "free agency." It's one and the same. Again refer to the talk I cited, Free to Choose by Neal Maxwell. It's interchanged.

[Vort]

Really? You're hung up on the 'free' part? They're saying the same thing. :)

The problem is your statement:

"Free Agency" is the term used by God in the scriptures.

Your overall point may be valid, but the above statement is factually incorrect.

[Dravin]

Really? You're hung up on the 'free' part?

Yes, you claimed a specific phrase was used in the scriptures. The claimed specific phrase is not used in the scriptures. The rest of your comments are irrelevant to your initial claim.

[applepansy]

Really? You're hung up on the 'free' part? They're saying the same thing. :) If you've ever attended any meetings, or classes run by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints they will, without fail, use the term "free agency." It's one and the same. Again refer to the talk I cited, Free to Choose by Neal Maxwell. It's interchanged.

Agendy isn't free. Sorry!

[C_T_R]

The problem is your statement:

"Free Agency" is the term used by God in the scriptures.

Your overall point may be valid, but the above statement is factually incorrect.

I edited my post! I misspoke! Any member of the church would understand how that could have happened when the term "Free Agency" is used time, and time, and time again.

I will WATCH what I say MUCH more closely in the future! Never had this happen before, CAN'T really believe it is SUCH an issue. But glad to know people are that concerned with semantics rather than the fact that these terms are all the same in this context.

In years past we generally used the term free agency. That is not incorrect. More recently we have taken note that free agency does not appear in the scriptures. They talk of our being “free to choose” and “free to act” for ourselves (2 Nephi 2:27; 10:23; see also Helaman 14:30) and of our obligation to do many things of our own “free will” (D&C 58:27). But the word agency appears either by itself or with the modifier moral: “That every man may act in doctrine and principle … according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment” (D&C 101:78; emphasis added). When we use the term moral agency, we are appropriately emphasizing the accountability that is an essential part of the divine gift of agency. We are moral beings and agents unto ourselves, free to choose but also responsible for our choices. -- Ensign, June 2009 Moral Agency by Elder D. Todd Chrisofferson

[C_T_R]

Agendy isn't free. Sorry!

Oh, yes, yes it is. Jesus Christ suffered on the cross and gave unto man their agency, freely. Or is this an issue of semantics again? Please refer to the quote I just posted.

[Vort]

I edited my post! I misspoke!

No need to get upset. Your edit occurred at exactly the same time as I was posting to you. In any case, my point was not to criticize, but to explain why people were disagreeing with you.

[C_T_R]

No need to get upset. Your edit occurred at exactly the same time as I was posting to you. In any case, my point was not to criticize, but to explain why people were disagreeing with you.

I'm not upset. Truly. I got asked by 3 different people at once, and was explaining myself. No need to coddle me.

I still stand by my sentiments that it's bizarre how you'd get hung up on that term, which has been widely used in the Church in years past. *shrug*

[applepansy]

Oh, yes, yes it is. Jesus Christ suffered on the cross and gave unto man their agency, freely. Or is this an issue of semantics again? Please refer to the quote I just posted.

Moral Agency is free. :)

[applepansy]

Oh, yes, yes it is. Jesus Christ suffered on the cross and gave unto man their agency, freely. Or is this an issue of semantics again? Please refer to the quote I just posted.

1) It isn't just "agency," its "Moral Agency."

2) There are obligation associated with moral agency.

[Dravin]

I will WATCH what I say MUCH more closely in the future! Never had this happen before, CAN'T really believe it is SUCH an issue. But glad to know people are that concerned with semantics rather than the fact that these terms are all the same in this context.

The issue isn't so much that you made a mistake, it happens, the issue is that when asked about your error you essentially tried to buffalo your way past it. If you'd just said, "Oops, you're right, it's not in there." several posts that now exist in this thread wouldn't have been posted.

I'm not upset. Truly. I got asked by 3 different people at once, and was explaining myself. No need to coddle me.

I still stand by my sentiments that it's bizarre how you'd get hung up on that term, which has been widely used in the Church in years past. *shrug*

Okay, it's not the term, at least not in in my case, it's that you claimed that the exact phrase existed in the scriptures when it doesn't.

Or is this an issue of semantics again?

That an argument or assertion has to do with meaning of words or language does not make it invalid. Your very argument that free agency and agency are synonymous is a semantic argument.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Dravin

[C_T_R]

1) It isn't just "agency," its "Moral Agency."

2) There are obligation associated with moral agency.

1) "Agency" is used in the scriptures by itself as I have cited.

2) There is no obligation associated with moral agency. THAT is the whole point of the Plan of Salvation. That man can learn for himself between good and evil. That is why the Savior died on the cross; why we didn't go with Satan's plan; and why God's love for his children is so astounding.

The option of free will, agency, to act for ourselves, was given to us without price to us by our Savior in this glorious plan.

I understand how you see it. This is how I see it.

[applepansy]

1) "Agency" is used in the scriptures by itself as I have cited.

2) There is no obligation associated with moral agency. THAT is the whole point of the Plan of Salvation. That man can learn for himself between good and evil. That is why the Savior died on the cross; why we didn't go with Satan's plan; and why God's love for his children is so astounding.

The option of free will, agency, to act for ourselves, was given to us without price to us by our Savior in this glorious plan.

I understand how you see it. This is how I see it.

Now I'm going to have to go find the talk I gave in Sacrament Meeting. LOL Not happening tonight.

Yes, agency is ours as part of the Plan of Salvation. But with it comes Moral Obligations. I'm too tired to argue tonight. I should have kept my fingers off the keyboard.

[C_T_R]

The issue isn't so much that you made a mistake, it happens, the issue is that when asked about your error you essentially tried to buffalo your way past it. If you'd just said, "Oops, you're right, it's not in there." several posts that now exist in this thread wouldn't have been posted, it's also a better route for credibility.

I was honestly confused why I was asked 3 times in a row where it says that. I didn't realize I had said it says in the scriptures the term, "free agency." Once I saw my post again, I edited it directly, and apologized for my mistake. But I did not attempt to buffalo my way past it!

I'm glad we can all agree that it's the same thing. I'm glad we can all now see what the issue was, which was my mistake. My credibility on the line? Wow. Just wow. That's ridiculous. I'll make a point of watching myself *even* closer. Thanks for the advice, but really my words are credible. I made 1 mistake about where that term is used, and a small one at that! It is! lol I can't believe it's such an issue to you all. Please again, refer to all my posts here. They're the same meaning. As Elder Christoffersen said, it isn't incorrect. It's been taught to me in church many times, and I thought it was in the works. When I realized my mistake, I changed it. The end.

[C_T_R]

Now I'm going to have to go find the talk I gave in Sacrament Meeting. LOL Not happening tonight.

Yes, agency is ours as part of the Plan of Salvation. But with it comes Moral Obligations. I'm too tired to argue tonight. I should have kept my fingers off the keyboard.

Really, you don't need to.

I am saying that through the plan of Salvation everyone was given agency without any work on their part. That is *all* I was saying.

If you'd like to go into a discussion of the choice, and it is a choice, then rest up and start a new thread or come back here and tell me. But THAT is a different topic altogether. :)

[Dravin]

I was honestly confused why I was asked 3 times in a row where it says that. I didn't realize I had said it says in the scriptures the term, "free agency." Once I saw my post again, I edited it directly, and apologized for my mistake. But I did not attempt to buffalo my way past it!

Quoting scriptures saying agency as if they say "free agency" is trying to buffalo, though maybe push might be a better term, your way past it. Either that or you didn't fully read the questions asked of you, it happens :shrug:, both me and Traveler asked you specifically where the phrase "free agency" is used in the scriptures.

I'm glad we can all now see what the issue was, which was my mistake. My credibility on the line? Wow. Just wow. That's ridiculous.

Note that credibility isn't a binary thing, and saying that something is the better credibility route is not a claim that the entirety of your credibility rests upon that single thing or instance of that thing. Something tells me you're thinking this is a bigger issue for me than it is.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Dravin

[C_T_R]

Quoting scriptures saying agency as if they say "free agency" is trying to buffalo, though maybe push might be a better term, your way past it. Either that or you didn't fully read the questions asked of you, it happens :shrug:, both me and Traveler asked you specifically where the phrase "free agency" is used in the scriptures.

I said it offhandedly. It was not intended to deceive, or be evasive in the slightest, and that's the truth. Once I realized what was going on, I fixed it.

Note that credibility isn't a binary thing, and saying that something is the better credibility route is not a claim that the entirety of your credibility rests upon that single thing or instance of that thing. Something tells me you're thinking this is a bigger issue for me than it is.

... Don't worry. Your comment didn't offend me. It reflects more on you than anything. A bigger issue for you than it is? I love how everyone is telling me my intentions and thoughts. Sounds sooo familiar.

Anyway, Dravin, don't worry about it. I really couldn't care less whether you think I'm credible or not.. I just thought it was a bit absurd but you are *free* to exercise your *agency.* Ba da bum tch

[Traveler]

For anyone that has been involved in formal debates - they will realize the importance in the definition of terms. If there is to be a rhetorical discussion - we must avoid slippery meanings.

Sometimes to avoid even the slightest misunderstanding on my part - I ask specifically pointed questions, which often are annoying and tick some people off. But If I do not think I really understand - I try to drill down and understand better what others are trying to say or what I think they are trying to say.

Sometimes it appears to me that many LDS use terms that they do not understand but with which they are very familiar. Will is an interesting word to me. If we possess will - does our will change? Perhaps if it is very week will - is a strong will known for it change? What does the term "free" add to your understanding of will?

For me free will is rooted in the concepts of freedom and liberty. If one is oppressed they are not free - and they cannot have free will.

I had hoped to have discussion on elements that free our will and brings liberty and freedom to individuals and societies. And what are the "things" that challenge our will and cause some to abandon their will and succumb to oppression.

I started this thread asking the question - what is free will? Perhaps I should have asked - how does one become free? how do we generate within us the power to freely exercise our will?

The Traveler

[norah63]

Thanks for making this a little clearer. I thought the OP was trying to get at something with out really saying what it was.

I'm sure we all use terms that others might understand differently.

For me free will, or just agency, is my ability to choose what I am going to agree with.

Might not involve an activity at all. Liberty to pray worship or believe as I choose.

Who would know if it was, or was not, according to anyone else's beliefs?

It is given unto us to choose this day whom we shall serve, so it would be our Heavenly Father that gives us all things .

[C_T_R]

For anyone that has been involved in formal debates - they will realize the importance in the definition of terms. If there is to be a rhetorical discussion - we must avoid slippery meanings.

Sometimes to avoid even the slightest misunderstanding on my part - I ask specifically pointed questions, which often are annoying and tick some people off. But If I do not think I really understand - I try to drill down and understand better what others are trying to say or what I think they are trying to say.

Your question, and other's posing the same question to me wasn't annoying to me, I just couldn't figure out where I'd gone wrong. Being told my intentions is quite another thing. I'm glad you drew that to my attention.

However, it seemed to be a small misstep in the context of what we're discussing here as "free agency" is a term used interchangeably according to that quote from the Ensign. My saying that exact phrase was used in the scriptures was incorrect, and I was happy to change it. But the same meanings, with the same words used in different places, are in the scriptures.

Sometimes it appears to me that many LDS use terms that they do not understand but with which they are very familiar. Will is an interesting word to me. If we possess will - does our will change? Perhaps if it is very week will - is a strong will known for it change? What does the term "free" add to your understanding of will?

For me free will is rooted in the concepts of freedom and liberty. If one is oppressed they are not free - and they cannot have free will.

In the Gospel context, the gift of agency is one of the fundamental reasons the Father chose Jesus to execute his plan. Satan sought (and seeks) to destroy the agency (free will) of man. How does Satan do this? By limiting us with addictions in all their forms, with excesses and with extremes. We give up our free will when we become physically or psychologically dependent on drugs or alcohol.

"The devil could not compel mankind to do evil; all was voluntary. . . . God would not exert any compulsory means, and the devil could not" (Teachings, 187; emphasis added).

Look at the verbs here. God would not.. and the devil could not.. One by-product of obeying the Commandments is our free will. God has His power because of how He chooses to exercise His will both to do things, and to not do things. He would cease to be God if He gave that up. Satan can not control people as he wants to.. and in a real sense I believe through his choices, he's given that gift away..

D&C 121:

34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?

35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—

36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.

39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.

40 Hence many are called, but afew are chosen.

The gift of free will is given to us, all of us, but as this scripture states when we seek to do things contrary to the commandments, we give it up. I truly believe God has these "rules" in place for our happiness, for our freedom and liberty of mind, of body, of spirit.

I had hoped to have discussion on elements that free our will and brings liberty and freedom to individuals and societies. And what are the "things" that challenge our will and cause some to abandon their will and succumb to oppression.

I started this thread asking the question - what is free will? Perhaps I should have asked - how does one become free? how do we generate within us the power to freely exercise our will?

The Traveler

I think these are really powerful questions.. really intelligent and insightful in looking at our will. I'm not the most eloquent writer or speaker, but here's an analogy: You see on like weight watchers commercials or Jenny Craig commercials or anything of the like people who've lost weight and say, "I can eat anything I want." That's true. They can eat anything they want. But what is it that they want? To be healthy (and probably thin). So even though they can eat anything they want, they factor in what they want when maybe the temptation comes along to dive into a white chocolate raspberry truffle cheesecake from the Cheesecake Factory and not look back. ... *ahem*

As I've stated, I think by following the commandments is when we really have free will, and clarity and wisdom to exercise that will in a way to keep us free. Does that mean you can't go out and break every single one of those commandments? No! You can! I can do anything I want.. but what is it that I want? I want to be free, to be close to God, to do what He's said to because I know from experience (thanks to free will) which side of the line I feel free on.. real freedom; real happiness; and a sense of peace and confidence in myself.

Satan's philosophies lead to bondage. That isn't God punishing anyone, this is how it works. He won't force us to come back home to Him. But he wants that for us out of pure unselfishness.

These are my thoughts.. if I haven't quite got what you were after, I'd love to look at this concept with you.

Edited August 31, 2012 by C_T_R

[Traveler]

Your question, and other's posing the same question to me wasn't annoying to me, I just couldn't figure out where I'd gone wrong. Being told my intentions is quite another thing. I'm glad you drew that to my attention.

However, it seemed to be a small misstep in the context of what we're discussing here as "free agency" is a term used interchangeably according to that quote from the Ensign. My saying that exact phrase was used in the scriptures was incorrect, and I was happy to change it. But the same meanings, with the same words used in different places, are in the scriptures.

In the Gospel context, the gift of agency is one of the fundamental reasons the Father chose Jesus to execute his plan. Satan sought (and seeks) to destroy the agency (free will) of man. How does Satan do this? By limiting us with addictions in all their forms, with excesses and with extremes. We give up our free will when we become physically or psychologically dependent on drugs or alcohol.

"The devil could not compel mankind to do evil; all was voluntary. . . . God would not exert any compulsory means, and the devil could not" (Teachings, 187; emphasis added).

Look at the verbs here. God would not.. and the devil could not.. One by-product of obeying the Commandments is our free will. God has His power because of how He chooses to exercise His will both to do things, and to not do things. He would cease to be God if He gave that up. Satan can not control people as he wants to.. and in a real sense I believe through his choices, he's given that gift away..

D&C 121:

34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?

35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—

36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.

39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.

40 Hence many are called, but afew are chosen.

The gift of free will is given to us, all of us, but as this scripture states when we seek to do things contrary to the commandments, we give it up. I truly believe God has these "rules" in place for our happiness, for our freedom and liberty of mind, of body, of spirit.

I think these are really powerful questions.. really intelligent and insightful in looking at our will. I'm not the most eloquent writer or speaker, but here's an analogy: You see on like weight watchers commercials or Jenny Craig commercials or anything of the like people who've lost weight and say, "I can eat anything I want." That's true. They can eat anything they want. But what is it that they want? To be healthy (and probably thin). So even though they can eat anything they want, they factor in what they want when maybe the temptation comes along to dive into a white chocolate raspberry truffle cheesecake from the Cheesecake Factory and not look back. ... *ahem*

As I've stated, I think by following the commandments is when we really have free will, and clarity and wisdom to exercise that will in a way to keep us free. Does that mean you can't go out and break every single one of those commandments? No! You can! I can do anything I want.. but what is it that I want? I want to be free, to be close to God, to do what He's said to because I know from experience (thanks to free will) which side of the line I feel free on.. real freedom; real happiness; and a sense of peace and confidence in myself.

Satan's philosophies lead to bondage. That isn't God punishing anyone, this is how it works. He won't force us to come back home to Him. But he wants that for us out of pure unselfishness.

These are my thoughts.. if I haven't quite got what you were after, I'd love to look at this concept with you.

I like to probe other people's ideas to see if in the process of reaching a conclusion they find something similar to what I have found. Not sure this is working out for this thread. So I will add a thought to see if it has an impact. The thought is discipline. I submit that discipline is the bridge to free will and away from bondage. The opposite to discipline is self indulgence - which can only lead to bondage and the complete loss of free will. Thus the commandments, ordinances, covenants, callings and direction we receive by revelation is for the single purpose to assist us in becoming disciplined.

The Traveler

[C_T_R]

Really, you don't need to.

I am saying that through the plan of Salvation everyone was given agency without any work on their part. That is *all* I was saying.

If you'd like to go into a discussion of the choice, and it is a choice, then rest up and start a new thread or come back here and tell me. But THAT is a different topic altogether. :)

2 Nephi 2:

27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

This is also what I meant by it being "free." Everyone is free to choose just as this scripture so perfectly states. The consequences of their choices does not mean they're not free to choose them.