Avoiding Sexual Desires? (pornography)?

[Finrock]

Hi someldsdude. It is a pleasure to meet to.

My goal of this post is to see how you guys eliminate triggers that cause you to look at pornography?

I don't think we can expect to ever eliminate the triggers, or the temptation. We can learn to adapt how we react to the triggers, over time. It is very similar to changing the amount of food you eat. Initially the temptation to eat more is difficult to resist. However, if you do not give in to the temptation, over time, your body and your mind will adapt to having less food and this results in it being easier to not eat. You may find one day that you have no desire to eat beyond what is proper.

In the same way, you will need to learn strategies to cope with the triggers and to resist them. So, dont so much focus on eliminating the temptation but focus more so on gaining power to overcome the temptation. Also, address the underlying issue of coping with stress. Once you are able to address your stress issues you will probably do much in addressing the porn and masturbation issues.

Applying the atonement in these cases is key. You will need power beyond your own to win.

Regards,

Finrock

[Sharky]

While I can understand why you don't want to post a list of triggers to the board, you should probably go through such a list with yourself. Some triggers you won't have control over, but some you will. .

I would suggest that you share this list with some one you trust. Someone who knows you well enough that they can feel comfortable "calling you out" when things start to sound like excuses.

That will help keep you honest with yourself with this problem and with a lot of other aspects of life.

In my experience, the reasons or excuses tend to be very similar regardless of the vise you turn to.

Some of my closest friends know "key words" & phrases that when they hear them they call me on them. They point them out. Sometimes I was not even aware of it myself & by them bring it to my attention I was able to change my thought processes or avoid certain settings for a while.

I have had a multitude of vises over the years, though it seems the reasons, the excuses, the key words/phrases, the thought processes have always been the same when I start heading for one of those vises.

[ldsttt]

Here are some things that you can try that are not mentioned before, and I have seen a lot of success with them.

1) Go to A Better Mormon | Become Part of the Solution of Pornography Addiction and listen to the 7 CD's. Also have your wife listen to them. Tony covers the brain science (neuroscience) behind porn addictions and this will help your wife understand your problem as well. Hopefully, it can help her see your addiction as a chemical addiction instead of a "I want to look at naked women" addiction. (Think about what you want when you look at porn. I don't think you want to look a dirty pictures and videos, you just want a chemical high in your brain that these pictures produce.)

2) Start to eat better and start to exercise more. Go on daily walks and do stuff to de-stress. You cannot just cut your addiction to the chemicals in your brain, you will need to replace them by doing healthy activities that won't get you into trouble. I really recommend Yoga!

3) Tony has a Porn Addiction | Stop the porn addiction | Curethecraving.com that you can join for free.

4) Don't do porn and mb at the same time and don't try to quit both at the same time. Make a rule that you have to wait 5 hours after porn to mb. I suggest just mb first and get it over with. You could even tell your wife. Tell her that you hate looking at porn, but if you don't have a release you fear that you might do both. Remember your goal to cut porn out first, and then work on reducing the need to mb. If you still look at porn after this, then you might schedule a release once or twice a week. Your wife might be able to help with this, but don't put any pressure on her. This isn't her problem, it's yours. NEVER tell her that she needs to take care of you or you will watch porn, because that makes it her problem again. Also, if you need to fanatize, then make sure it is about your wife.

I know this might sound a little backwards, but I have seen it really work. Once it is "okay" to mb, the desire reduces dramatically. Also, we can't be perfect with the snap of the fingers, so why not just focus on one thing at a time.

5) Remove all shameful feelings. Don't keep track of how long you have been sober, and don't worry about doing it again. You probably will do it again, but who cares! You are on a path to bring you closer to Christ. Just because you slip every now and then doesn't mean you fell off the path. After every slip, just analyze what your triggers might have been and then think next time when I feel this I will go for a walk (or something else) instead. Say a prayer and ask for help, and then move on! Don't let it ruin any more of your day!

Edited September 5, 2012 by ldsttt

[Misshalfway]

Ya, I definitely don't think it's because of 'boredom'. This is 100% stress. I'm finishing up my schooling and I'm running our business.

So, it sounds like porn and masturbation are your primary coping mechanism. You feel stress, you use. Does this sound right?

[Misshalfway]

Here are some things that you can try that are not mentioned before, and I have seen a lot of success with them.

1) Go to A Better Mormon | Become Part of the Solution of Pornography Addiction and listen to the 7 CD's. Also have your wife listen to them. Tony covers the brain science (neuroscience) behind porn addictions and this will help your wife understand your problem as well. Hopefully, it can help her see your addiction as a chemical addiction instead of a "I want to look at naked women" addiction. (Think about what you want when you look at porn. I don't think you want to look a dirty pictures and videos, you just want a chemical high in your brain that these pictures produce.)

2) Start to eat better and start to exercise more. Go on daily walks and do stuff to de-stress. You cannot just cut your addiction to the chemicals in your brain, you will need to replace them by doing healthy activities that won't get you into trouble. I really recommend Yoga!

3) Tony has a Porn Addiction | Stop the porn addiction | Curethecraving.com that you can join for free.

4) Don't do porn and mb at the same time and don't try to quit both at the same time. Make a rule that you have to wait 5 hours after porn to mb. I suggest just mb first and get it over with. You could even tell your wife. Tell her that you hate looking at porn, but if you don't have a release you fear that you might do both. Remember your goal to cut porn out first, and then work on reducing the need to mb. If you still look at porn after this, then you might schedule a release once or twice a week. Your wife might be able to help with this, but don't put any pressure on her. This isn't her problem, it's yours. NEVER tell her that she needs to take care of you or you will watch porn, because that makes it her problem again. Also, if you need to fanatize, then make sure it is about your wife.

I know this might sound a little backwards, but I have seen it really work. Once it is "okay" to mb, the desire reduces dramatically. Also, we can't be perfect with the snap of the fingers, so why not just focus on one thing at a time.

5) Remove all shameful feelings. Don't keep track of how long you have been sober, and don't worry about doing it again. You probably will do it again, but who cares! You are on a path to bring you closer to Christ. Just because you slip every now and then doesn't mean you fell off the path. After every slip, just analyze what your triggers might have been and then think next time when I feel this I will go for a walk (or something else) instead.

I really like a lot of what you've said here. Understanding the neuroscience can be helpful for a number of reasons. It explains why it's so hard to stop and it helps to cut through the shame one feels about themselves.

I also really like how you give permission to mb at first. I agree that taking away the "forbidden-ness" helps to break ones attractions to it. I think this is a courageous things to do. Hard if the wife isn't able to tolerate it in any degree. And hard to do in our LDS culture. But it can be so helpful. It's akin to stopping the shame about having sexual feelings. If you realize that sexual feelings are part health (both spiritual and physical) then you decrease the powerlessness that often drives addictive processes.

I will say one thing about shame. Not all shame is bad. Shame is actually an essential part to a fully functioning emotional system. It's the shame one feels about who they are that is toxic. But we need the healthy shame that tells us when we are out of bounds. There is a reason that porn use and mb is a shame producer. The shame feelings are trying to tell us something. It's how we interpret and react to these feelings that makes all the difference.

[ldsttt]

I will say one thing about shame. Not all shame is bad. Shame is actually an essential part to a fully functioning emotional system. It's the shame one feels about who they are that is toxic. But we need the healthy shame that tells us when we are out of bounds. There is a reason that porn use and mb is a shame producer. The shame feelings are trying to tell us something. It's how we interpret and react to these feelings that makes all the difference.

I said shame and not guilt for that reason. Guilt is about wanting to try again, shame is about beating yourself up. If you ever think anything along the lines of "I am a bad person" or "not worthy of God's (or your wife's) love." That's bad. But, I need to work on this a little more is good.

[Misshalfway]

I said shame and not guilt for that reason. Guilt is about wanting to try again, shame is about beating yourself up. If you ever think anything along the lines of "I am a bad person" or "not worthy of God's (or your wife's) love." That's bad. But, I need to work on this a little more is good.

I can see what you are saying and I agree. I think I just see shame, and guilt for that matter, a little differently. People feel toxic/unnecessary guilt too.

I think it's important, though, to understand that shame, as an emotion, isn't going anywhere. It's like trying to get rid of anger or fear. We don't get rid of them. We shouldn't. We need them as part of the human survival system. But we can refine them, control the way we judge or react to them.

We can and should do our work, in terms of getting toxic thoughts out of our heads, which is essential to recovery and repentance. But so is getting ok with the emotions we feel. It's ok to feel shame just like it is ok to feel any emotion. We want people to feel shame about sexual behavior in particular. When people don't, we get sex offenders. It's all a question of balance and then developing the skills to deal effectively with emotional experience. Compulsive sex is about blocking emotional experiencing. Like the OP. He has stress and he doesn't like it/doesn't know what to do with it, so he medicates it. The answer is learning how to feel...and then how to deal. Real emotional health isn't just a transition of what one is suppressing.

[jb789]

Unfortunately I can talk about this for hours, but would rather get straight to the point and know how to kick the problem. I feel that every guy like me who has grown up during the boom of the internet era (under 30yrs old) is addicted to porn. However, I would like to be one of those who control it.

I, like many others, have struggle with the temptation for this, and these are my thoughts:

1) In order for the behavior to truly end, we must lose the desire to do it. If the desire/urge arises for porn/masturbation, and then we say "what can I do to fight this desire/avoid acting out", we may gain a few victories, but eventually, the urges will get the better of us. In my own struggles with this the Spirit has hinted that, in order to be truly free of this, our nature must change, so that we no longer desire sexual activity in any form that does not involve the loving union of a spouse. This is a massive change of heart/spirit, and can very well take years to fully develop, that is, to lose all desire to engage in any sexual act outside of the marriage union (including porn, etc).

2) At the same time, I do believe the male sexuality has physical needs for sexual release from time to time - it's part of our biology. As an unmarried person myself, this can pose some problems =)

So, in short, I believe if the desire isn't uprooted at it's root, we're fighting an essentially losing battle. Nonetheless, getting to the point where we truly have no desire to engage in any unworthy sexual act is a long process.

I think as we do our best and strive to follow the Spirit and rely on the Saviour, our natures will gradually change, eventually we will lose all desire to sin in this way. In the meantime, we need to be steadfast and keep trying. There is no easy fix. I've asked bishops for advice, most of the time they gave me no advice I hadn't thought of on my own for coping with these urges. I believe that is because, plain and simple, there is no magic fix - it takes years of self-discipline and gradual changing of our hearts to overcome this. And to overcome it means to lose all desire to do it.

[Misshalfway]

I, like many others, have struggle with the temptation for this, and these are my thoughts:

1) In order for the behavior to truly end, we must lose the desire to do it. If the desire/urge arises for porn/masturbation, and then we say "what can I do to fight this desire/avoid acting out", we may gain a few victories, but eventually, the urges will get the better of us. In my own struggles with this the Spirit has hinted that, in order to be truly free of this, our nature must change, so that we no longer desire sexual activity in any form that does not involve the loving union of a spouse. This is a massive change of heart/spirit, and can very well take years to fully develop, that is, to lose all desire to engage in any sexual act outside of the marriage union (including porn, etc).

2) At the same time, I do believe the male sexuality has physical needs for sexual release from time to time - it's part of our biology. As an unmarried person myself, this can pose some problems =)

So, in short, I believe if the desire isn't uprooted at it's root, we're fighting an essentially losing battle. Nonetheless, getting to the point where we truly have no desire to engage in any unworthy sexual act is a long process.

I think as we do our best and strive to follow the Spirit and rely on the Saviour, our natures will gradually change, eventually we will lose all desire to sin in this way. In the meantime, we need to be steadfast and keep trying. There is no easy fix. I've asked bishops for advice, most of the time they gave me no advice I hadn't thought of on my own for coping with these urges. I believe that is because, plain and simple, there is no magic fix - it takes years of self-discipline and gradual changing of our hearts to overcome this. And to overcome it means to lose all desire to do it.

I love your heart felt remarks. Thank you for being so willing to share your insight.

I have some questions about this in my mind. While I appreciate that our dispositions need to change to, 1) become like God, and 2) to overcome sin, I wonder about that "losing the desire" thing. If the neuropathways are formed in the brain, I think that the person could very well experience a form of "desire" (or maybe craving is a better word) even if the person has changed a great deal in terms of spiritual dispositional changes.

I guess what I'm saying is that feeling a craving, which tends to happen even years down the road, may not be the best indicator for change.

[jb789]

I guess what I'm saying is that feeling a craving, which tends to happen even years down the road, may not be the best indicator for change.

Yes, you may very well be correct, as to my own experience I can't say at this time if I know either way. But what you are describing certainly makes sense.

[BurrisValeria]

I think you should understand why exactly are you so much dependent on porn. It's quite understandable for single guys, but you are married. Destroy the cause of your obsession and the problem is solved

[x1134x]

The solution to masturbating to pornography addiction is to address the root cause. Pornography did not reach out, grab you, put a gun to your head and make you view it. It is not responsible. There was a hole in your heart, or a problem in your life that you decided to use pornography to try to soothe. You may not even be concious of the issue yet. Therapy can help. I'd suggest starting off reading a book called No More Mr Nice Guy by Dr. Robert Glover. Do not let the name of the book fool you. It is a great book at getting to the heart of guy's issues. It focuses on childhood issues such as abandonment, neglect, abuse, etc and shows you how these issues manifest themselves in acting out behaviors like compulsive pornography/masturbation and presenting yourself as something different than you are to garner attention from women. It also gives you a roadmap to fix the issue(s).

Secondly for those who are married AND those who are not, after reading No More Mr Nice Guy, get the Married Man Sex Life Primer by Athol Kay. This should be REQUIRED reading for all males to graduate high school. It is marriage oriented and NOTHING in it is contrary to the teachings of the church. It has sections about choosing a mate that could be critical to those who have yet to get married, and plenty of help for those who are already married.

Once you have a HEALTHY outlook on sex, and aren't using sex and orgasms to medicate yourself from other pains, and especially after having entered into a HEALTHY sexual relationship with a partner who also has a HEALTHY outlook on their sexuality, the pornography and masturbation problems WILL disappear. You don't have to "control" any urge, they NEVER happen. Ignore people who say "I've been married for X years and still have a pornography problem. They do not have a HEALTHY sexual relationship nor a HEALTHY outlook on their sexuality. They have not addressed the root cause, and like a plant you just break off at the surface, the root just re-grows the plant.

Just like drug abuse, Pornography usage and masturbation are symptoms of an underlying issue. You have to figure out what that issue is and address it.

Edited September 10, 2012 by x1134x

[jb789]

The solution to masturbating to pornography addiction is to address the root cause. Pornography did not reach out, grab you, put a gun to your head and make you view it. It is not responsible. There was a hole in your heart, or a problem in your life that you decided to use pornography to try to soothe. You may not even be concious of the issue yet. Therapy can help. I'd suggest starting off reading a book called No More Mr Nice Guy by Dr. Robert Glover. Do not let the name of the book fool you. It is a great book at getting to the heart of guy's issues. It focuses on childhood issues such as abandonment, neglect, abuse, etc and shows you how these issues manifest themselves in acting out behaviors like compulsive pornography/masturbation and presenting yourself as something different than you are to garner attention from women. It also gives you a roadmap to fix the issue(s).

Secondly for those who are married AND those who are not, after reading No More Mr Nice Guy, get the Married Man Sex Life Primer by Athol Kay. This should be REQUIRED reading for all males to graduate high school. It is marriage oriented and NOTHING in it is contrary to the teachings of the church. It has sections about choosing a mate that could be critical to those who have yet to get married, and plenty of help for those who are already married.

Once you have a HEALTHY outlook on sex, and aren't using sex and orgasms to medicate yourself from other pains, and especially after having entered into a HEALTHY sexual relationship with a partner who also has a HEALTHY outlook on their sexuality, the pornography and masturbation problems WILL disappear. You don't have to "control" any urge, they NEVER happen. Ignore people who say "I've been married for X years and still have a pornography problem. They do not have a HEALTHY sexual relationship nor a HEALTHY outlook on their sexuality. They have not addressed the root cause, and like a plant you just break off at the surface, the root just re-grows the plant.

Just like drug abuse, Pornography usage and masturbation are symptoms of an underlying issue. You have to figure out what that issue is and address it.

This is a very helpful comment, and it makes sense what you say about using porn/mb as a way to cover/mask/medicate deeper underlying issues.

I have a question though - is it possible someone may look at porn/masturbate, not as a means to cope with pain/difficulties/etc (other root issues), but simply because their body/biology wants a physical sexual release? Meaning, for lack of a better term, it's simply because one feels a need for physical sexual release, and this can be the cause of their porn/mb? This is assuming they aren't married and thus don't have a proper sexual outlet.

[x1134x]

This is a very helpful comment, and it makes sense what you say about using porn/mb as a way to cover/mask/medicate deeper underlying issues.

I have a question though - is it possible someone may look at porn/masturbate, not as a means to cope with pain/difficulties/etc (other root issues), but simply because their body/biology wants a physical sexual release? Meaning, for lack of a better term, it's simply because one feels a need for physical sexual release, and this can be the cause of their porn/mb? This is assuming they aren't married and thus don't have a proper sexual outlet.

I think its a pandora's box issue. When you're young and have never masturbated to orgasm, then you "don't know what you're missing" which is a good thing. You just feel a foreign sense of "fullness" in your loins, but you have the natural process of "nocturnal emmissions" or "wet dreams" to evacuate dead sperm if you just continue on without masturbating. Once you have masturbated to orgasm, I'm sure as the well fills up it becomes MUCH harder to abstain.

In my older, wiser analysis, the reason that the church teaches you not to masturbate is really not a physical one, its a mental one. It trains your mind to be ashamed of your sexuality through the hiding from others, and the non-human stimuli. One need only venture out on a google to find many stories of men who can get a great erection by themselves with masturbation/porn, but cannot get or maintain an erection with their naked, willing partner present. This is obviously not a physical condition, its a mental condition. Your mind doesn't feel right, and you feel "exposed" which triggers the flight/fight reaction. The church is wise in discouraging masturbation, and those who abstain are wise.

I don't subscribe to the idea there are urges you need to learn to "control" so that you don't have a "need" to have sex, even when you're older and married, I think its a matter of you don't want to damage your natural wiring, and reprogram yourself to be turned on by the stimulus of your computer or hiding place, and your hand.

For further information check out yourbrainonporn.com and yourbrainrebalanced.com Seems to me when you talk to men from a scientific perspective vs just a right/wrong perspective, the church's teaching's change from arcane and old-fashioned to quite forward-thinking.

Edited September 10, 2012 by x1134x

[ClickyClack]

It's like any other addiction.

You can't replace that desire in your brain with... nothing. You have to replace it with something.

Give this a listen, and consider seeking professional help in further ways to change your desires.

[x1134x]

You can't replace that desire in your brain with... nothing. You have to replace it with something.

I agree, the best something is a healthy sex life with a married partner. If you're too young for that, the best path is to not develop the addiction in the first place.

[jb789]

I agree, the best something is a healthy sex life with a married partner. If you're too young for that, the best path is to not develop the addiction in the first place.

Agreed, without any doubt. However, when one is unmarried, dealing with natural sexual desires can be very difficult - on the one hand we're told to be pure in all thought/action, and on the other, the fact that as humans we are sexual beings means we have our sex drive regardless of whether we're married or not. I'm not making excuses, I agree with all that's been said here, it just seems to pose greater difficulties if one isn't married, and there isn't any healthy outlet for the sex drive.

[x1134x]

Agreed, without any doubt. However, when one is unmarried, dealing with natural sexual desires can be very difficult - on the one hand we're told to be pure in all thought/action, and on the other, the fact that as humans we are sexual beings means we have our sex drive regardless of whether we're married or not. I'm not making excuses, I agree with all that's been said here, it just seems to pose greater difficulties if one isn't married, and there isn't any healthy outlet for the sex drive.

I don't disagree that its difficult. It IS. But consider the alternatives: No sex drive, OR a messed up sense of sexuality that involves only yourself and images/fantasy such that when you finally do find a partner your body doesn't respond!

No sex drive would be abnormal body function. Its healthy to have that drive, it instigates you seeking out mates to pass on your DNA and expand your family tree. That's the outlet I'd be pursuing if I had it to do all over again, dating and getting to really know as many women as possible such that you can find one you can really connect to on other levels, because in the long run sex is just going to be something you do with that partner, it isn't the be-all and end-all of a relationship. 99.9% of your time will be spent with that person doing life things other than sex.

Messing up your sexuality because it was difficult not to take a shortcut that your mind wires itself to respond sexually to may be just as bad as no sex drive. Even when you do find a mate, you can't pass on your DNA because it just doesn't work. Unfortunately you don't even get to find out this has happened to you UNTIL you find a partner and try to have sex.

I'd encourage anyone struggling with this to read stories of other men who've already been down that path and how badly they regret it now that they've got a mate who they cannot perform with. With the advent of the internet and internet anonymity, there's literally thousands of men now capable of confessing and working together on an issue they never would even admit to face to face beyond vague relations such as "women in the porn give you an unrealistic view of women". How? Those are real women in those videos. What they're were really saying back when this information had to be passed on by word of mouth face to face without anonymity is: "I did this stuff, and now even with my wife there ready to have sex, it doesn't work, I must have built up an unrealistic expectation". Not realizing they had rewired their limbic system to respond with a dopamine reward to the wrong stimuli. With the amount of science we now know about the brain and the limbic system its pretty easy to put together the puzzle of how porn and masturbation messes up your biological responses to the stimuli its supposed to respond to with a substitute stimuli. Read the articles at yourbrainonporn.com. The science should scare you from ever wanting to break your body. If the eternal consequences aren't scary enough, the immediate consequences may be.

If we were just our animal bodies, we'd behave like the rest of the animal kingdom: male dog meets female dog, sniff sniff sniff, and then you're mating if the pheromones indicate its a good time to breed. But then we'd all be dealing with the repercussions of this type of mating that you see in the animal kingdom: Alpha wolves kill other wolves who try to mate with their pack. Sexually transmitted diseases are transferred far more often in animals. Receiving a body for your spirit to experience means experiencing these lower-level animal traits that we've inherited from our predecessors. How convenient that we're spirits that aren't at the behest of our pheromones and animal urges and have at least SOME level of control, even though it still is not easy.

Edited September 11, 2012 by x1134x

[MrShorty]

on the one hand we're told to be pure in all thought/action, and on the other, the fact that as humans we are sexual beings

The way I interpret this statement: Any sexual feeling/thought/urge is a stain on our purity. Pure people (esp. singles) are asexual (have no sexual thoughts/feelings/urges). A bit simplistic, and I don't think it is really the message we are trying to convey as a church and as a community. But I think this is often the message we perceive.

I don't really have any answers. It seems to me that we would do better with this topic if we could figure out how to allow purity to include at least some sexual thoughts/feelings/urges.

[jb789]

The way I interpret this statement: Any sexual feeling/thought/urge is a stain on our purity. Pure people (esp. singles) are asexual (have no sexual thoughts/feelings/urges). A bit simplistic, and I don't think it is really the message we are trying to convey as a church and as a community. But I think this is often the message we perceive.

I don't really have any answers. It seems to me that we would do better with this topic if we could figure out how to allow purity to include at least some sexual thoughts/feelings/urges.

I think you make a very good point - it's interesting how in the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve were naked and not ashamed - then it was Lucifer that pointed out they were naked, and shame entered (they ran and hid - also, God asked them "Who told you thou wast naked" - and it was Lucifer).

I do think that growing up in the church there can develop a lot of shame/repression towards one's own sexuality - because the "shall nots" are so focused on. I would agree that a healthy view of sexual purity should allow some sexual thoughts/urges/etc, otherwise it seems to be a never-ending battle against yourself. I remember reading the account online of an LDS physician who commented that he had actually felt the Spirit when mb as a youth, and when he did this with an eye towards eventually marriage, it helped him cope with his sexuality and keep a healthy view of it. Others may disagree with his comments, but I thought they were interesting. At the least, it implied that sexual purity is more about directing our sexuality towards a spouse when unmarried, rather than putting a stoppage to it.

[Misshalfway]

The way I interpret this statement: Any sexual feeling/thought/urge is a stain on our purity. Pure people (esp. singles) are asexual (have no sexual thoughts/feelings/urges). A bit simplistic, and I don't think it is really the message we are trying to convey as a church and as a community. But I think this is often the message we perceive.

I don't really have any answers. It seems to me that we would do better with this topic if we could figure out how to allow purity to include at least some sexual thoughts/feelings/urges.

I'd like to comment about this above understanding because I think this kind of misconception is behind a lot of our sexual perfectionism and may be why so many are struggling with their sexuality (compulsive problems as well as others). Thanks for wording it so well.

God doesn't want us to stop feeling things. He just wants us to master the flesh by bridling our passions. Bridling is the very answer to your last statement.

If one tries not to have sexual feelings, well, I suppose they could succeed in doing that, but it wouldn't be healthy. Most likely it will lead to lots of unnecessary suffering.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Misshalfway

[C_T_R]

This may be too simplistic.. but just chill out about it. Sexual feelings are there. When the temptation to act on it in any way hits, you choose whether you will or won't. But having those feelings isn't a sin.

Struggling with pornography is different.. I don't know what I can say to help with that.. other than get help. I've seen it destroy more than a few lives.. and I'm not even talking about their families. The people wrapped up in it.

Sex, when used appropriately, is so much hotter than any of that stuff. You're looking at dust in those photos and videos. That's all our bodies are here. Everybody's got em. When I see a photo of someone naked, for me I'm looking at it purely anatomically.. and I know that isn't the case with someone that enjoys porn on that level but yeah. Enjoying sexual relations with someone you're married to? Sahooo much hotter. God created it; He knows what He's talking about when he gives us those guidelines. And He WANTS us to have that pleasure. The pleasure gotten from porn or any unworthy sexual act is a phony substitute. ~~ bleh

[MrShorty]

Bridling is the very answer to your last statement.

I think you might be right on this. Except -- what does it really mean to "bridle our passions?"

I'm not a horseman, though I have ridden a horse before, so I basically understand the analogy to a horse's bridle. The bridle is the instrument with the bit and the reins that allows the rider to control the horse. (aside, I still remember the first time I rode a horse by myself and called my mom to tell her all about pulling the reins left to get the horse to turn left and so on). So the picture is basically one of being sexual, but staying in control of one's sexuality.

So, let me ask this (if I dare). What about jb789's physician example? Can one allow himself/herself to masturbate within strict limits while fantasizing about a nameless/faceless future spouse? Done correctly, it seems like this would meet the criteria for "control" over one's sexuality. But would we (collectively) be comfortable with that? Or maybe we're not comfortable with the "action" part of that, so would we allow for controlled sexual fantasy as long as there was no physical element? Or are these possibilities, at best, on a slippery slope that leads to sin.

I agree that an important element of developing our sexuality is to learn how to control it, how to make decisions around it. Is it possible, though, that when we say "bridle our passions," we are meaning that the only safe way to bridle this horse is to tie the reins to a stout post and never let this horse out of the barn?

[Misshalfway]

I think you might be right on this. Except -- what does it really mean to "bridle our passions?"

I'm not a horseman, though I have ridden a horse before, so I basically understand the analogy to a horse's bridle. The bridle is the instrument with the bit and the reins that allows the rider to control the horse. (aside, I still remember the first time I rode a horse by myself and called my mom to tell her all about pulling the reins left to get the horse to turn left and so on). So the picture is basically one of being sexual, but staying in control of one's sexuality.

So, let me ask this (if I dare). What about jb789's physician example? Can one allow himself/herself to masturbate within strict limits while fantasizing about a nameless/faceless future spouse? Done correctly, it seems like this would meet the criteria for "control" over one's sexuality. But would we (collectively) be comfortable with that? Or maybe we're not comfortable with the "action" part of that, so would we allow for controlled sexual fantasy as long as there was no physical element? Or are these possibilities, at best, on a slippery slope that leads to sin.

I agree that an important element of developing our sexuality is to learn how to control it, how to make decisions around it. Is it possible, though, that when we say "bridle our passions," we are meaning that the only safe way to bridle this horse is to tie the reins to a stout post and never let this horse out of the barn?

If the commandment were about bridling only, then your "controlled" mb scenario might work. But the commandment is about having sex ONLY inside the context of a marital relationship. So, while controlled, masturbation would violate the law simply because it involves having sexual experiences alone. The way I see it is LofC is the rule and bridling is the "how to".

A horse can be bridled whether standing still or running at top speed. I don't think bridling is always about keeping the "horse" tied up. We don't stop bridling just because we get married.

[jb789]

So, let me ask this (if I dare). What about jb789's physician example? Can one allow himself/herself to masturbate within strict limits while fantasizing about a nameless/faceless future spouse? Done correctly, it seems like this would meet the criteria for "control" over one's sexuality. But would we (collectively) be comfortable with that? Or maybe we're not comfortable with the "action" part of that, so would we allow for controlled sexual fantasy as long as there was no physical element? Or are these possibilities, at best, on a slippery slope that leads to sin.

If anyone is interested, this was the article I was referencing:

Mormon Masturbation

I'm not going to comment yea or nay on the views of the LDS writer of the article, though I thought some might find it interesting.