Bishop issue

[kikiah2]

I'm going to give a little history before I ask the actual question that I'm seeking advice on...

Almost a year ago (at 34) I had a stroke. When I was taken to the hospital the on call doctor was also the first counselor on my Bishopric. He was a little flippant with me and hesitant to offer me a blessing. He reluctantly found another to help him and I received the blessing. At discharge there was a dr enter my room that I didn't know. When he Left this dr came in and told me to check my bill and if that dr billed me then I was to bring the bill to him and he would take care of it because he wasn't given permission to enter my room. So when the bill came in I took it to the counselor/dr and he refused to follow through with his offer. I continually called his office and asked when I saw him at church functions if my test results had come back in. After 4 months I scheduled an apt with another specialist to figure out what the results where. Suddenly the results were in and he set me up an appt with him instead of the specialist. When I got in to see him I had tried to tell him the blood thinners he had me on were making me sick. I put on 25 lbs in a month, my bp was sky high and i had difficulty breathing. He knew I was an avid runner and his reply with a giggle was, sure sucks trying to run when your this heavy isn't it. Needless to say I found a new dr and felt awkward around him at church. ONe day he asked me how my health was. At that point I was not doing well the medication had made me suicidal and over all felt terrible. I told him I was scared because things weren't right. He brushed me off and told me to stop worrying just take the medication and everything would be fine and walked away. I had another episode where I thought I was having another stroke and another member came to take me to the dr. She took it upon herself to call this dr to ask if he thought i should go to the hospital. It was decided to just go to urgent care, the dr that was there had to call him again because he didn't have the info needed, in my chart. Both these calls he billed me for. so I had 2 office visit bills for one incident. This is how the man has always treated me and many others I know of.

Ok during this time i hit bottom and committed a big enough sin to lose my temple recommend. WHen I did my counsel I told the bishop that i wouldn't do it if this counselor had to take part in it and explained what had transpired. He said it was no biggie and it proceeded with out his first counselor. I was put on 6 months of probation and my time is up that I can get my recommend back. but lo and behold last week this first counselor became my current bishop.

My question; is there another way to go about getting my recommend back with out discussing everything with this new bishopric? I don't trust this man, I don't feel comfortable reconfessing my sin and dredging that horrible time back up. I can sustain this man as bishop and pray for him especially that he can learn some compassion to help him lead us. but at this point I can't confide in him and feel that things will go well. Is there another way to go about getting my recommend back considering the fact I have issues with the current bishop. I don't want to wait I need back in the temple. But how can someone care about my spiritual health when they don't have an ounce of concern for my physical health?

[Guest]

Go to your stake president with your concerns.

[RMGuy]

Not sure where you are located, so my advice might be difficult.

I never mix friendship and business

Never mix family and business

Never mix church and business.

-RM

[EarlJibbs]

I agre with Eowyn. Go to your stake president with your concerns.

In all honesty though, he probably knows of your situation so you should not have to go through everything. When a new Bishop is in place, they are usually informed of who the previous Bishop was helping and for what reasons. Not always mind you. Best of luck.

[MarginOfError]

I agre with Eowyn. Go to your stake president with your concerns.

In all honesty though, he probably knows of your situation so you should not have to go through everything. When a new Bishop is in place, they are usually informed of who the previous Bishop was helping and for what reasons. Not always mind you. Best of luck.

Whether or not the bishop actually knows is irrelevant to how this sister feels. It is even more irrelevant to how she feels about discussing these issues with her bishop. She should discuss her reservations with her stake president. He may counsel her to work with her bishop, or he may assume responsibility for her. But that's a decision to be made by her and her stake president.

[EarlJibbs]

Whether or not the bishop actually knows is irrelevant to how this sister feels. It is even more irrelevant to how she feels about discussing these issues with her bishop. She should discuss her reservations with her stake president. He may counsel her to work with her bishop, or he may assume responsibility for her. But that's a decision to be made by her and her stake president.

Actually as the OP stated " I don't feel comfortable reconfessing my sin and dredging that horrible time back up" so I was addressing one of the OP concerns as they may not have to dredge it back up if the Bishop already knows of the situation. I am not saying that the OP should go see the Bishop regardless, I actually suggested that they still go to the SP and still suggest that.

[applepansy]

Definitely go see your Stake President.

[kikiah2]

Thanks for the replies. I've only been active the last 1.5 years and not sure of how things work. I don't want to cause problems for him. I know that he is called of God and that reason could very well be more for him than anyone else.

[Misshalfway]

Thanks for the replies. I've only been active the last 1.5 years and not sure of how things work. I don't want to cause problems for him. I know that he is called of God and that reason could very well be more for him than anyone else.

I don't think going to the SP would cause any problems for the bishop. I think he will just help you determine what is best for your situation. He may take on the thing itself, or he may send you back to the bishop.

What is needed at this point of your repentance? How did the old bishop leave things with you? If all that is needed is a temple recommend interview, it seems to me that you could get in and out pretty quickly without a big long dialogue.

[Sharky]

Two Thoughts:

First:

Talk with the Stake President & do it soon!

Do not worry about the issues it might cause your Bishop. He had agency to make the choces he made & now you have to make the choices that are best for you & your famliy & your eternal salvation.

Your SP may want to have a discussion with you & he together. Do it! That is a step to your finding forgiveness for this brother. You should strive to forgive this brother; however, that is a process that no one can dictate or place a time frame on.

No one should force that forgiveness process either.

There are times that it is determined to be in the members best interest to temporarily have their membership & their families memberships officially transfered to a nearby ward for a time. That is something that the SP & area presidency must determine.

Based on what you have said here I would believe that there should at least be some consideration given to that possibility.

I seriously wonder if you can sustain and support this person in his position. Based on what I have read I know I would have an extremely difficult time doing so.

Second:

Try to understand that even though he is/was a member of the bishopric, in that emergency room he was a DR.

Providing you a priesthood blessing is considered by many to be crossing that line of professionalism. Any one of the others present or around at that time might have complained to hospital admin or to to his supervisor, potentially even to the licensing board.

His stepping into the clergy role while acting as your DR may well have violated the "pressumed religious rights" of others who were present as well as possibily violated hospital policy or even licensing statutes.

Ethically he can not act in both roles at the same time.

Since he still seemed to be very much a friend when you were discharged & has since gone out-of-his-way to treat you as a client or have nothing to do with you, I would almost suspect that some sort of formal action was at least investigated.

Such actions & hearings take time, sometimes several weeks before he would have become aware of it.

His sudden change in how he treated you seems to be a bit unprofessional, however, it also would fit with him trying to ensure that there was no way that someone could question if he was your Dr or your clergy.

If that is the case, I believe he could have handled it better. He should have been up front with you about it & made sure that you got your care transfered to another competent Dr immediately rather then putting you off.

-----------

On a personal note:

As an EMT I can not give a priesthood blessing to a patient or even a family member while I am on that ambulance call.

I can not even return to the family or go to the hospital as a representative of the ward for at least 72-hrs, even then doing so is questionable & I must answer the questions, "Would I be aware of this situation had I not been the EMT that day?" & "Do I have business as a ward member with this family at this time?"

I can not telephone anyone else to come give a blessing. I can not call the HT or bishop & tell them of a need or of a death.

ALL those things violate the law.

It has at times placed me in some very difficult positions where I have offended people without intent of doing so. Yet that line is very solid & clear - usually.

I feel that my skills as an EMT, with some divine intervention, is as vital to my community & my church & God as is my position in the ward and my authority as a priesthood holder.

I have to keep the balance there or I will not be able to do at least one of them, perhaps neither of them.

Now if I were the only priesthood holder in 50-miles, I might think & feel otherwise.

I have on occaision asked the EQ President if so-&-so (the HT of the patient) has spoken with him. I never say why or the patients name or even imply what it is concerning. Just a simple question.

What the EQ Pres makes of taht question is not in my control.

The most difficult call was horific in & of itself.

What made it worse? A sister in the ward car had been T-boned. She was deceased on our arrival, the 3-year old critical, the 1-year old very serious.

Due to the remoteness of the area a "Chopper Go" was called.

My wife was this siters VT. Her husband working on a large powerline project out-of-state at the time. Oh how I struggled with this. He needed to know. He would need the support of the "transient bishop" & ward members there until he could get a flight back home.

I had to put all that out of mind & do my job, the task at hand, keep those children alive until we could get them to more qualified personnel who had the proper equipment & skills to save them.

I could say & do nothing beyond.

I did finally ask my wife if she had been to visit sister ____ lately. She indicated she had not but that she would. "When". She looked at me & said "Right Now". That was the morning (12-hrs) after this horrific event. When she arrived at the house the wife met this siters Mother & learned of what had taken place.

I have frequently questioned if I should have done more due to my position in the ward & worried less abt my role as an EMT. I have finally found some peace in realizing how important my training & skills are to the Lord's purposes. Just as important as is my calling in the ward.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Sharky

[annewandering]

Sharkey things must be different in different areas. My husband was in LDS hospital in SL and the dr not only helped he got another elder to assist.

I think it would be awful to not be able to give all the care possible. I do not envy you Sharky.

There is something more in the op's story though. Giggling? A Doctor/1st Counselor? Something is off with that.

[Sharky]

Sharkey things must be different in different areas. My husband was in LDS hospital in SL and the dr not only helped he got another elder to assist.

I think it would be awful to not be able to give all the care possible. I do not envy you Sharky.

There is something more in the op's story though. Giggling? A Doctor/1st Counselor? Something is off with that.

Some docs are more comfortable with it then others are. Some areas are more accepting. An area, or a hospital where it is a generally acceptable thing, where it is "the environmental culture" would have fewer concerns.

I would wonder though, would that doc have done the same thing had it been say at St Mark's? There is still a St Mark's in SL isn't there? Of course, it was 1983 when my Mother ended up in there ER & emergency surgery. They might have changed names by now.

Of course in 1983 there wasn't all the political correctness that trumps religious acts with the "presumptive religious rights" of those around you at the time.

The wife is an RN. They can not put up any type of nativity scene at Christmas, not even one that is snowmen. It violates the "presumptive religious rights" of other employees & patients. Christmas trees are allowed, though highly discouraged for the same reason. EVERYONE is to feel welcomed & when there are religius symbols or a religious act done by an employee, someone MIGHT feel unwelcomed or offended.

There is something more in the op's story though. Giggling? A Doctor/1st Counselor? Something is off with that.

I absolutely do agree that something is else "off".

I do not want to imply either way on that. Could have been more a perceptual thing, could have been a nervous thing on the side of the doc, any number of things there that it could have been. I don't know & don't want to determine that based on what is disclosed. Guess I'm taking a neutral point on that.

I do believe that the DR acted unprofessionally towards this individual, both stepping out-of-bounds (not by giving the blessing however) & in the care provided afterwards.

The fact that the Dr told the Pt that another Doc had "no permission" & implies he will "fix" a bill makes me very suspicious. In a hospital setting & the care/diagnostics of stroke, BP, etc frequently involves numerous docs in a wide variety of roles. "Permission" is not simply granted or denied by a single doc. That action on this DRs part is something that I really question & wonder what the Doc was doing or thinking.

There again, I can only wonder.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Sharky

[rameumptom]

I once used a LDS attorney for some things going on in my life. He sat upon the paperwork for months, without doing anything. I finally had to threaten to sue him to get it done (he had my money already). In the end, because of me and others he'd messed up, he was disbarred. There is the Church and there is business. The two should not be mixed. When it is, we should be charitable, but no more so than we would be to any other child of God. If the person is not performing, we have the right to fire him/her, and find someone competent.

[Sharky]

Being called to the Bishopric or Stake Presidency or to the Elder's Quorum Pres does not make one immune to the temptations of the world. They are men and therefore can be tempted as men can be.

A bishop in a near by stake was released & excommunicated 2 years after being called as the bishop. Seems in his executive positive at work he was more intrerested in the bottom line then he was in being honest in all his dealings with his fellow men. He did nothing criminal & nothing "technically" unethical.

As a Judge in Isreal he would ask a question about being honest in all your dealings with your fellow men in each & every TR Interview he did & he would have to judge the worthiness of those members to enter the temple.

He'd ask this question of others while in his own life there were serious questions regarding his own efforts to be honest in his dealings.

Apperantly his decisions at work were determined to not be in harmony with his position in the church.

It is one thing to just be a ward member, but to be in a leadership position the bar in your own personal life must be rasied to.

[kikiah2]

I feel i must reply to this comment about clergy and hospital not intermingling. For one it is always allowed in the area hospitals. It is a very common occurrence and I didn't ask him in particular. I wasn't even fully aware of everything going on around me at the time. I had just had a stroke. I believe he is the one that approached me and asked if I wanted one. Only a few short minutes after it had been administered my Bishop of the time showed up, so his behavior remains confusing. Despite that it doesn't excuse the cold shoulder after. Even with separating work from church, why ask me how my health is when in a church setting if you know full well its ill advised and you can't discuss it. Not only that how can you be a bishop when you are treating a good share of your clergy. Your point only muddied this water further.

It is ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS available at hopitals! The hospital has no legal leg to stand on. This particular man happens to do this regularly so I guarantee he didn't have any recourse from the hospital board about what happened there.

As for forgiving him.....HE IS HUMAN! I understand we don't react to each and every person the same way. This has nothing to do with not forgiving him. It has everything to do with our personalities don't mesh and I'm not comfortable at this point in his new calling to rely on him. This does not mean that I can't sustain him or work with him in the future. As confusing as this may seem it is very doable. I know he was called of God for God's reasons. I may have been stunned by it but also realize it can change this man for the better. I also know that because he does have an incredible amount of faith he will improve who he is and become a better man. God will work his magic with him as He does with everyone else. But my human side will need time to catch up to it all and I can't wait to get my temple recommend back my spiritual health needs to partake of that sacrament again and return to where I belong. It isn't a simple interview for a temple recommend it does require another counsel.

[kikiah2]

In my area part of the hospitals money making scheme and yes that is exactly what it is, confirmed by this doctor himself, doctors that have nothing to do with anything in particular will enter, say hello ask how you are listen to your heart or something simple then bill an outrageous amount in my case $500. This hospital is under investigation for numerous fraud cases

[Sharky]

I appologize if I muddied the waters.

A bishop or a counselor can ask about health even if they are not a DR. In their clergical position doing so would be normal regardless of their profession or pt-dr relationship with you. He asked you this at church? Then he was "presummed" to be a clergy.

It is diffiuclt to explain the legal seperation of the two, clergy vs Dr, or Clergy vs Nurse, Clergy vs EMT, when you are in an area that it is so readily accepted to blend the two.

Where I live, if you walk into a catholic hospital you imply conscent & acceptance of their religious acts & symbols being present. Your conscent is implied that employees of that hospital will be performing religious acts in your presence. You have no recourse.

However, at NO OTHER hospitals are hospital staff allowed to perform religious acts for or in behalf of patients or in the presence of pts or staff or visitors due to Supreme Court rulings that have called into question if doing so violates the rights of others who may be present at the time.

Many hospitals around here do have, at each nurses station, LDS Consecrated Oil available for VISITOR use.

In areas such as SL where it is a "environmentaly acceptable" thing that occurs regularly in most hospitals, there is less of a concern; however, even in SL there are members of other faiths that may have been present, may work in that ER and could have been offended or felt that the Dr "forced" your religious beliefs on them by stepping into that role while "on-duty".

Difficult to understand, but the courts say those present (employees or otherwise) have the right to NOT have a representative of the hospital (i.e. a DR in an ER) perform a religious act in an open area or in thier presense without their conscent.

Not saying that this was the case; however, If someone was present that was offended or felt their rights were violated by an on-duty employee or representative of that hospital (an ER doc) giving you a blessing, performing a religious act, they would have the right to file a complaint concerning the matter, even if it regularly occurs on a daily basis.

[bytor2112]

A bishop in a near by stake was released & excommunicated 2 years after being called as the bishop. Seems in his executive positive at work he was more intrerested in the bottom line then he was in being honest in all his dealings with his fellow men. He did nothing criminal & nothing "technically" unethical.

Nothing criminal or unethical? And Exed? Hmmm....highly doubtful...must be a whole lot more to the story. I know of an SP that was committing adultery with one or more sisters and was only disfellowshipped.

[Sharky]

Nothing criminal or unethical? And Exed? Hmmm....highly doubtful...must be a whole lot more to the story. I know of an SP that was committing adultery with one or more sisters and was only disfellowshipped.

Key word you left out ... "technically" unethical.

I am sure that there is more to the story.

I do know he was never charged criminally & the state did not even investigate his professional license, they found "no basis with which to proceed" when they did their initial review of the complaint as it "appears the subject did not actually violate the acceptable standards of his profession".

Another key word .... "acceptable" standards of his profession.

Not saying he was in the banking industry; however, some of the "acceptable standards" in the banking industry that we have seen in the past decade are far from acceptable in my book!

I do know that there was some dealings with members of his ward & stake that were a part of the complaint filed with the state against his license.

I know I was NOT comfortble with him during the minimal business dealings he & I had, which is why our buisness dealings remained only minimal.

I also know that Bishops, SP, seminary/institute teachers, they are all held at a little higher standrd then are the "average" member. Something that may have resulted in "probation" or disfellowshipment of the average priesthood holder can easily be excommunication simply based on the individuals position within the church.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Sharky

[Sharky]

Nothing criminal or unethical? And Exed? Hmmm....highly doubtful...must be a whole lot more to the story. I know of an SP that was committing adultery with one or more sisters and was only disfellowshipped.

Another thought .... every case, every stuation, whether it is refered to church court or handled at the SP level and if refered to a church court, the course of action that church court elects to take ... every case is different.

There really is & can be no comparison of 1 indivduals church court experience to the experience of another.

Unlike the criminal justice system where everything is based on statute & case law & precident & each persons experience is fairly cpmpariable & predictable.

One of the considerations in the church court proceedings is how repentant the individual is. Is it felt they made a full disclosure of the situtation?

Another is how many people are aware of the "offense".

A 3rd consideration is if or how the individual participates in the church court process (the "accussed" does not have to participate).

Those 3 things I can tell you from experience play a big role in determing the out come.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Sharky

[annewandering]

Blessings are not done in public areas without drawing a curtain in most, if not all, circumstances.