Sign Of The 2nd Coming Of Christ

[Fiannan]

Well, then 5 became spinsters.

[Traveler]

I am not sure but I may be beating the parable of the 10 virgins to death. If anyone has attempted to use the ancient lamps mentioned in the parable they would have a better understanding of what is going on with the oil. Most likely the lamps Jesus referred to are small, do not hold very much oil and do not give off much light. There is a handle at one end by which the lamp is held, a large opening on top and a spout or small hole opposite the handle. A wick is placed in the spout or hole and is lit for the light. The lamps are somewhat difficult to light (even with a match which they did not have them) and will go out in any wind. (Just a side note here – anciently many pagan religions had rituals and prayers for lighting a lamp because of the difficulty – some believed that only by appeasing a light g-d would a lamp successfully be lit and provide light. Therefore a lighted lamp was often used to symbolize someone pleasing or acceptable to the g-ds. I wonder if Jesus used this concept in presenting his parable. If so it is a concept mostly lost in time.) I have wondered if this concept does apply in that the effort, belief and faith of some is not acceptable (as per the sacrifice of Cain) where such effort, belief and faith of others, is acceptable (as per the sacrifice of Able).

Seldom do the lamps hold much more than about an hour worth of oil – which means that the lamps often run out of oil and need replacement and often must be relit. It is interesting that in the parable the virgins seemed to be required to keep their own lamp lit and not work as a team.

The Traveler

[Guest ChristianHumphrey]

Maybe the 5 who werent prepared were to busy contemplating it on the internet?? Before Christ comes to the Earth for the millenial reign..Bear with me bad grammar.. there shall be a earthquake felt worldwide such as never has been..there will also be a major storm of somesort that shall destroy major crops of the Earth causing a famine..Then also the stars and sun shall refuse to give their light..so until those things come to pass why worry about..Christ comes everyday for some of us.. what is it every 1/10th of a sec someone dies..It will be tomorrow for some us maybe.. who knows who cares.. We can contemplate what Adam did for years..WE can contemplate what Jesus is going to do to..While all of it is very intriguing and may seem to be very important for us in our present state it is of little Value.. the 5 Virgins whose lamps were going out and the five whose lamps werent are the Lds church..Half the Church will be foolish and half will be wise but as the parable says we shall all be sleeping. The 5 whose lamps were going out had to go buy more oil the ones who trimmed the lamps had enough oil..If you dont understand then it will only be because you dont ask...its not just our testimony...its our faith its our all.. we will all be asleep..but some of us will be ready..the parable of the virgins and the parable of the servants who began to eat and drink with the drunkards are one in the same if im not mistaken..

[Traveler]

Nice post CH. I believe the point of the parable of the 10 virgins is not to try to know the moment (year or decade) when Jesus comes but to have prepared well in advance, all needful things. There are two keys: First is the contemplating of what comprises needful things and (second) knowing the difference between needful things and what are the un-needful things that constitutes excess burden.

When I was a scoutmaster I would always point out to my scouts that being prepared is the heart of scouting and one of the greatest “secrets” of life. Often when we were camping and a scout would complain about the particular “bad” weather we were having I would respond with a particular phrase: “There is no such thing as bad weather, just bad equipment, bad preparation and bad choices as the weather changes.”

One of the greatest learning experiences for my scouts was the “50 miler” backpacking expedition. The reason I like it so much it because the boys quickly learned what was necessary and sufficient to have in their back pack and what was useless extra dead weight – and I would not have to say a thing, by the end of the first day they all would have come to the same conclusions. I could lecture and provide lists of things and even have pack inspections that would not change even one mind – but one day of carrying their pack convinced them of what is needed and what is excess.

What is the oil? We could talk this to death and it will not change even one mind. I wonder what we must face (activity our master has cooked up) to convince us of what is needed in our back pack and what is excess?

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

As we have talked on this subject of virgins - I wonder??? Could it be the the virgins are belie vers and that their hearts have the spirit and that they are converted. But 5 are not completly converted - they are not whole in their beliefs. But they do believe and the spirit has witnessed to them.

The Traveler

I'm not sure if this is what you are getting at, but if it is, your numbers are off. Most non-LDS Christians are good folk with mostly right (though perhaps incomplete from an LDS perspective) doctrine. They believe in Jesus and have some sense of the Spirit. On the other hand, LDS believers have embraced the restored gospel (what we pentecostals used to call the 'full gospel'), and thus are over-flowing with 'oil.'

(BTW, me guesses your actual interpretation would be much more nuanced than that--some non-LDS perhaps still having enough oil, some LDS not)

The problem with this interpretation is that it would then have to be the parable of 2 billion, 12 million virgins, with 2 billion running out of oil.

[CrimsonKairos]

I think of the oil as testimony and personal commitment to Christ. This involves knowing him.

If the bridegroom passed the virgins and it was dark, they had to know him and what he looked like in order to know whom to follow to the wedding feast or what have you.

Sure they could've just said, "It must be the guy in the front of the procession decked out in fancy attire," but hypothetically another bridegroom could have been passing on his way to another feast.

In another vein, the oil in their lamps allowed them to generate the light necessary to illuminate the bridegroom's features and recognize him. Again, it could be argued that they could've recognized his voice in the absence of a visual confirmation, but that too involves knowing him personally. The parallel to recognizing the Master's "voice" is a simple yet powerful one.

In any case, the way I apply this parable to myself is to regularly inspect myself and my spirituality...see if I feel firm in my beliefs and understanding of the gospel...see if I'm willing to purchase the "oil" through study and service and sacrifice...see if I am willing to wait in the night as long as necessary until the Bridegroom (with a capital "B") comes by and invites me to follow, etc...

[Traveler]

I think of the oil as testimony and personal commitment to Christ. This involves knowing him.

Here is a thought for you. Could family history be oil? See Malachi 4:5-6.

The Traveler

[CrimsonKairos]

Not sure.

[boyando]

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As we have talked on this subject of virgins - I wonder??? Could it be the the virgins are belie vers and that their hearts have the spirit and that they are converted. But 5 are not completly converted - they are not whole in their beliefs. But they do believe and the spirit has witnessed to them.

The Traveler

I'm not sure if this is what you are getting at, but if it is, your numbers are off. Most non-LDS Christians are good folk with mostly right (though perhaps incomplete from an LDS perspective) doctrine. They believe in Jesus and have some sense of the Spirit. On the other hand, LDS believers have embraced the restored gospel (what we pentecostals used to call the 'full gospel'), and thus are over-flowing with 'oil.'

(BTW, me guesses your actual interpretation would be much more nuanced than that--some non-LDS perhaps still having enough oil, some LDS not)

The problem with this interpretation is that it would then have to be the parable of 2 billion, 12 million virgins, with 2 billion running out of oil.

Hi P. C.;

I think that you are close, but not close enough for the prize ....lol.

We believe that we, LDS, belong to the Church of God. And that those who have not been baptized a member of this Church, are not members. This does not mean that we believe, that good people like you, will not have a chance to return to live with our Father in heaven. It does mean that every human that has lived on this earth, will have a full chance to except or reject the Church of God.

We are not supposed to judge righteousness, so I can't say that You wont be there. I'm not perfect and I know some what of your views about who will live with God after they pass into the next life.

What we believe is that the virgins represent the Church of God and being a member (for half of this group) is not enough.

These seem like harsh words, but they are meant for members of the LDS faith. There are many of us (LDS) who think that the act of going to church is what saves them. Much like what Paul had to say about the Law of Mose is not what will save you. Only your relationship with your Heavenly Father and the redeeming Blood of His Only Begotten will allow you to live with Him again.

By the way, You will always be invited to join the Church of God - Your friend - allmosthumble

[Traveler]

I want to thank everyone for their contribution to this thread even though we got a little off track from the question concerning "THE" sign of the Christ.

As to the discussion concerning the virgins - I believe that the more one knows about the Christ and the more they are converted the more that will be expected. I believe that the warning that Jesus gave is directed to those that indeed know better. I believe that if someone thinks that they know more or have better or more complete faith than someone else then that greater faith will require "more" oil.

This is not a matter of telling others what they may be missing - I believe the parable of the 10 virgins is a warning and an indication to look upon ourselves. Just a note concerning PC - from what I have learned of this "Latter-day Saint" and his devotion - I suspect when Jesus comes he will be better prepared with his oil than I will be with mine.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Hi P. C.;

What we believe is that the virgins represent the Church of God and being a member (for half of this group) is not enough.

These seem like harsh words, but they are meant for members of the LDS faith. There are many of us (LDS) who think that the act of going to church is what saves them. Much like what Paul had to say about the Law of Mose is not what will save you. Only your relationship with your Heavenly Father and the redeeming Blood of His Only Begotten will allow you to live with Him again.

By the way, You will always be invited to join the Church of God - Your friend - allmosthumble

First, words from the heart can be direct and pointed, yet not harsh. Also, as fyi, there are some in the evangelical Christian community who believe that when the Christian church is taken away, prior to the time of coming judgment, that only those who are truly dedicated, truly ready, will go. This group is sometimes called a remnant. Personally, I struggle with this notion that one can be Christian-but-not-ready. The understanding that those who lack oil are those with "head" knowledge only--no heart conversion, strikes me as more compelling. If that translates to half the church members going, seems about right (some would say optimistic).

[Rosewood]

This has been very interesting, but I was just wondering if your original question was answered too. I think I know the answer to your question but after all these yrs of reading it now I can't find it!!! I hate it when this happens.

The great sign of the coming of the son of man will be the coming of the son of man Himself. In other words His appearance is the sign. I know that sounds like, huh? I think it's in the Bible and in the D&C. You know coming out of the east, brighter than the sun, people will think it's a comet, etc. It's actually Him.

I have heard that the star of Bethlehem was actually a star. What ever they knew of stars in those days. There was some interest in the possibility that the star was an angel or something else. So a Gen Authority put an end to it by confirming it as a star. Again, I can't remember who or where

HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD OF THESE THINGS OR KNOW WHERE TO FIND THEM?

[Traveler]

This has been very interesting, but I was just wondering if your original question was answered too. I think I know the answer to your question but after all these yrs of reading it now I can't find it!!! I hate it when this happens.

The great sign of the coming of the son of man will be the coming of the son of man Himself. In other words His appearance is the sign. I know that sounds like, huh? I think it's in the Bible and in the D&C. You know coming out of the east, brighter than the sun, people will think it's a comet, etc. It's actually Him.

I have heard that the star of Bethlehem was actually a star. What ever they knew of stars in those days. There was some interest in the possibility that the star was an angel or something else. So a Gen Authority put an end to it by confirming it as a star. Again, I can't remember who or where

HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD OF THESE THINGS OR KNOW WHERE TO FIND THEM?

My research into this has been interesting. One of the ideas that I have considered is that the star at Jesus’ birth is the possibility that a star (about 600 light years from earth) went supernova and that was the sign when Jesus was born. During the supernova such a star could be seen even during the day as bright as our sun - something claimed in many non-biblical scriptures. Plus the supernova could provide the energy to cause the ozone to floras (kind of like the northern lights). This would cause the night to be as light as day and there would be no shadows. The star would then dim over a period of time until it was only visible at night and then disappear from view.

Should a star (about 400 light years or less) supernova the effect on earth would be much more dramatic. It would be similar to thousands of atomic blasts that would ignite vegetation (and buildings) world wide (causing a firestorm) and any life that was unprotected would be destroyed. Kind of a baptism of fire.

The Traveler

[gdwalser]

I've thought of a nova too. Any evidence of that? It would have to of been around for a few years to get the wise men there. Also astronomy was a fairly sophisticated science back then. Is there some record of the star?

[CrimsonKairos]

Again, I must point to this excellent explanation by a gifted LDS astronomer:

http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/herod/herod.html

It is an intriguing possibility, with sound reasoning behind.

Check out all his articles for a great read!

http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/index.html

[thelast2000]

Just wondering? What is the sign that will be given in the east that Jesus has returned as King for the 1,000 years of peace? Could it be that same sign or similar sign (in the east) that the wise men saw?

The Traveler

Read the book "How Awesome Will It Be?" A Teenager's Guide to the Second Coming" by Roger A. McKenzie. It is very clear on various points of the last days, prophecies, who will make it and not and expectations of the last days. It is truly an awesome book.. and I'm 46 yrs old. Easy to read. Good Luck and enjoy!!!

[prisonchaplain]

Read the book "How Awesome Will It Be?" A Teenager's Guide to the Second Coming" by Roger A. McKenzie. It is very clear on various points of the last days, prophecies, who will make it and not and expectations of the last days. It is truly an awesome book.. and I'm 46 yrs old. Easy to read. Good Luck and enjoy!!!

For those of us too lazy to grab the book, you might give us some highlights. Who's going to make it and not, etc?