What's So Special About Kwanzaa?

[CrimsonKairos]

If African-Americans (AA hereafter) have a problem with slavery, they shouldn't take it out primarily on the USA. I wonder who sold those slaves to the people who shipped them here from Africa?

Oh, wait, it was the Muslims with the trans-Saharan slave-trade (among others).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery

http://www.christianaction.org.za/articles...geofSlavery.htm

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/lewis1.html

http://africanhistory.about.com/library/weekly/aa040201a.htm

http://africanhistory.about.com/library/weekly/aa080601a.htm

So instead of taking it out on Christmas and caucasians, AA's should celebrate Kwanzaa during Ramadan to separate themselves from the Muslim traditions of their ancient captors.

[shanstress70]

<div class='quotemain'>

PC, I guess we have to agree to disagree. I mean no harm by disagreeing with this holiday. It just seems silly to me. Especially when the man who came up with the 'holiday' was such a hideous person.

Sure it's OK to celebrate one's heritage, so would you be all for a holiday for every nation whose people came to America?

Octoberfest (Germans), Cinco de Mayo (Mexicans), St. Patrick's Day (Irish), etc. We have them, and nobody thinks twice.

With the exception of St. Patrick's Day (which I think is similarly silly), the other days have a beer-drinking festivity (one night a year) involved with them and little more... at least where I live. And they are not exclusive. They will take beer money from anyone. :)

I say we make July 4th a week long celebration and include every heritage that is in this great country, but have emphasis on the fact that we are one country now. Maybe then we could all get along. B)

[Brother Dorsey]

Personally I have no problem if the A.A. community wants to celebrate this made up holiday....if it makes them feel better about who they are and where they came from then good.....I do however have a problem when a white person who's roots are in South Africa tries to celebrate the holiday and they are dissed by the A.A. comunity because they are not black....this happened a few years ago to someone I worked with. Let's be honest...this is not an A.A. holiday....it's a black holiday by blacks and for blacks....but I have no problem with it at all....as I said if it makes them feel better then go for it. Now.....what do you suppose would happen if a large group of white Americans decided to start a holiday celebrating white Euorpean heritage....? Or perhaps if a group of white students formed a white heritage club at school?.....Or maybe some folks got together and started a white heritage month? What would happen to a bunch of kids who proclaimed they were white and proud? See where I'm going with this? Color seperates the world and until the blacks, whites, yellows and browns stop seeing each other in color and start seeing each other as the brothers and sisters they really are this will never change. All the different color Americans will continue to try and seperate themselves by fabricating clubs and holidays and religons and the list goes on.....somewhere along the line this has got to stop....probably not until the Masters return when all will be united and all tongues will confess and all knees will bow to Him!

[boyando]

I just now remembered that my heritage goes through South Africa. Of coarse that is nothing to brag about.

You can't change were you came from. But maybe I can get in on this Kwanzaa thing. What's good for an AA is good for me, right.

Hey, if the pledge of allegiance can come from an atheist/socialist and changed by the words "under God", then maybe Kwanzaa can turn into something great for all American's.

I look forward to a day when there will only be one holiday, called the millennium.

allmosthumble

[Fiannan]

So instead of taking it out on Christmas and caucasians, AA's should celebrate Kwanzaa during Ramadan to separate themselves from the Muslim traditions of their ancient captors.

Quite true. Although the Ethiopians also participated in the slave trade that mostly centered on eastern Africa in exporting fellow blacks into the Middle East for slave purposes. The Muslims were generally the ones in charge of much of the slave trade in Africa -- what, you think a bunch of white guys went on hunting expeditions into the heartland of Africa and snatched slaves?

Also, while we are at it I was talking with a history professor the other day and I was actually unaware that Northern Africans went on slave raids as far as the coasts of Iceland up until the 17th. Century. I was aware that slave raids for hundreds of years took place in the British Isles, Spain, France, Italy, etc. and perhaps millions of Europeans were snatched ans sold as slaves in Africa and the Middle East. Also, the Ottoman Turks took part in slave raids into Greece until the beginning of WW1.

And anyone who wants to see modern slavery needs only to see what the Islamic extremist government in Sudan is doing to the black Christian community in southern Sudan.

[CrimsonKairos]

And anyone who wants to see modern slavery needs only to see what the Islamic extremist government in Sudan is doing to the black Christian community in southern Sudan.

Precisely. Few know about this modern day example of slavery in our "enlightened" age, a day when the U.N. and international relationships "flourish" and backward traditions like slavery have "disappeared." Yet the USA is continually berated for our history with slavery...dealings that ended for all intents and purposes in the 19th century. Whatever. An interesting article is here: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_...v47/ai_17443644

Excerpts:

Sudanese Bishop Macram Max Gassis told delegates Sudan's Islamic fundamentalist regime "encouraged slavery" and had declared holy war on non-Muslim Sudanese. He was joined by Harlem activists and by historian John Henrik Clarke. The "rapidly expanding Arab slave trade" accompanied the "spread of Islamic fundamentalism," Clarke noted in videotaped remarks. "It is odd that very few people in the Western world are saying anything about" present-day slavery.

The plight of these slaves has moved grass-roots blacks in New York but has yet to rouse the liberal press and the black civil-rights leaders into action. Journalists who fought apartheid are silent now that the oppressors aren't Westerners. Black American spiritual leaders are likewise passive.

"For two years we tried to get Rev. Jackson on the record against slavery," says Charles Jacobs. He "returned our document packages unopened. A staff person told us that Jackson wouldn't touch the issue because it seemed anti-Arab." Jackson wouldn't even give Cotton a statement. He "is busy with affirmative action," an aide explained. "Right now, slavery is not on his agenda."

Some Congressional Black Caucus members seem keener on seeking reparations for slavery of centuries past than on ending current bondage. When representatives of 25 relief groups met in Washington last year to step up pressure on the Sudanese government, the Caucus was noticeably absent.

[boyando]

Any one know how we can verify the size of the the problem of slavery in the Sudan? Seems that all we can do is write to every one that we know, or know of. But with out accurate numbers, we are crying wolf, in the eye's of many.

We small band should stick together to fight this fight.

allmosthumble

[prisonchaplain]

If African-Americans (AA hereafter) have a problem with slavery, they shouldn't take it out primarily on the USA. I wonder who sold those slaves to the people who shipped them here from Africa?

I keep getting this undercurrent that Kwanzaa is somehow separatist, and a "taking it out" etc. My understanding is that it's a celebration of African heritage, not a dismissal of whites. So what's the point of saying blacks commit crimes against blacks? Does that make it okay, or less reprehensible that whites did so?

So instead of taking it out on Christmas and caucasians, AA's should celebrate Kwanzaa during Ramadan to separate themselves from the Muslim traditions of their ancient captors.

You do realize that some Christian churches in the AA community celebrate (note the word--nor mourn, not observe, celebrate) Kwanzaa. I just don't get the antagonism here.

[prisonchaplain]

Bro. Dorsey, you seem to have some pent up distaste for this holiday. Let me breakdown your post, and see if we can look through other lenses.

Personally I have no problem if the A.A. community wants to celebrate this made up holiday....

Aren't all holidays 'made up?'

if it makes them feel better about who they are and where they came from then good.....

Aren't most holidays meant to make us feel good?

I do however have a problem when a white person who's roots are in South Africa tries to celebrate the holiday and they are dissed by the A.A. comunity because they are not black....this happened a few years ago to someone I worked with.

The AA is celebrating their heritage and pride, and along comes a White South African (meaning one with Afrikaans or British heritage) saying, "Hey, I'm from Africa too!" Yeah I can see how that might go over like the proverbial led balloon.

Let's be honest...this is not an A.A. holiday....it's a black holiday by blacks and for blacks

African Americans are black. What's your point. Me thinks White South Africans who immigrate here might be Afrikaans-Americans (hey, still A.A.), but don't you think this point is a bit peevish?

....but I have no problem with it at all....as I said if it makes them feel better then go for it. Now.....what do you suppose would happen if a large group of white Americans decided to start a holiday celebrating white Euorpean heritage....?

There is no cohesive white heritage. And again, we do have ethnic holidays. Why would you be so off-put by a group that's had a rough go of it, wanting to celebrate the good in their culture?

Or perhaps if a group of white students formed a white heritage club at school?

Again, there is no white heritage. Groups that make up such nonsense tend to be listed on federal domestic terrorist registries. There are plenty of local celebrations, and a few national ones, that focus on Euro-Scandanavian pride.

.....Or maybe some folks got together and started a white heritage month? What would happen to a bunch of kids who proclaimed they were white and proud? See where I'm going with this?

When the 85-90% who are white go around shouting "We're white, we're proud!" the rest get nervous. History justifies their concerns. When the 10% who are black say, "We're black, we're proud!" We ought to cheer, and say, "Bully for you. Keep your communities strong, clean, prosperous!"

Color seperates the world and until the blacks, whites, yellows and browns stop seeing each other in color and start seeing each other as the brothers and sisters they really are this will never change.

We can be proud of our different cultures and heritages, without failing to love one another.

All the different color Americans will continue to try and seperate themselves by fabricating clubs and holidays and religons and the list goes on.....somewhere along the line this has got to stop....probably not until the Masters return when all will be united and all tongues will confess and all knees will bow to Him!

And perhaps that is how the Heavenly Father intended it--beginning at the Tower of Babel.

[shanstress70]

Does that make it okay, or less reprehensible that whites did so?

No, it doesn't. However, I didn't commit any crimes against blacks... some white people did years ago. (And I know this wasn't what you were asking, but I just wanted to state my opinion on the matter.)

[prisonchaplain]

<div class='quotemain'>

Does that make it okay, or less reprehensible that whites did so?

No, it doesn't. However, I didn't commit any crimes against blacks... some white people did years ago. (And I know this wasn't what you were asking, but I just wanted to state my opinion on the matter.)

We could carry this even further, to say that your ancestors (or mine) might have been Abolitionists, Civil Rights supporters/activists, etc. Of course. I do not see Kwanzaa as an attack on you, me, or any specific ancestors of ours--but rather, again, as a celebration of the good that the AA culture has, and as a recognition of just how much has been overcome.

[CrimsonKairos]

all quotes about kwanzaa in this post come from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwanzaa

I keep getting this undercurrent that Kwanzaa is somehow separatist, and a "taking it out" etc.

I'm not too interested in becoming an expert on kwanzaa to explore this issue further. My point was that its founder seemed to think Christmas was primarily a caucasian holiday, and there needed to be a black one too:

In 1967, a year after Karenga proposed this new holiday, he publicly espoused the view that "Jesus was psychotic" and that Christianity was a white religion that blacks should shun.

Sounds a little separatist. This despite many Ethiopic Christians believing Jesus was actually black. Also is this little line that hints at separating blacks from the "dominant society" through social, economic and political tactics:

These principles correspond to Karenga's notion that "the seven-fold path of blackness is think black, talk black, act black, create black, buy black, vote black, and live black."

My understanding is that it's a celebration of African heritage, not a dismissal of whites.

Of course it was originally a dismissal of whites (not that I care). Look at Karenga's ideology in forming the holiday:

(1) Christmas is a "white" holiday;

(2) Jesus and his "white" followers are psychotic;

(3) Kwanzaa emphasizes blacks sticking with other blacks (see the above sevenfold path of blackness) and disdaining Christmas and it's caucasian associations.

So what's the point of saying blacks commit crimes against blacks? Does that make it okay, or less reprehensible that whites did so?

PC, you're smarter than that. That's not what I was saying. I was saying that all you hear about is how big bad colonial America and many of its Founding Fathers held slaves and were boorish racists who started a country built on slaves' backs and we can never get past that or move on from that....yet slavery still exists today. It doesn't matter that it's primarily blacks and Arabs enslaving blacks...the point is slavery still exists and no one of cultural clout or political importance does anything about slavery other than to metaphorically sling mud at the Statue of Liberty, while turning a blind eye to Sudan. Gimme a break.

You do realize that some Christian churches in the AA community celebrate (note the word--nor mourn, not observe, celebrate) Kwanzaa. I just don't get the antagonism here.

There's no antagonism. There's frustration that people who are so "educated" about America's ugly past with slavery, are ignorant of its continued practice today in Sudan, Mauritania, et al. And those who are aware of it (even leaders of the black community) won't touch the issue because it might be seen as anti-Arab. What I say to that, then, is don't give me crap about what slave-holders did hundreds of years ago to your ancestors in America, if you're not interested in stopping slavery today.

In case there's confusion, I am not racist. I value every child of God regardless of skin tone or country of origin. In fact the one sister I baptized on my mission in Kentucky was an amazingly faithful African-American woman. Even though Christmas has largely pagan origins, I agree that now its why you celebrate it that's important. Similarly, though Kwanzaa's founder might have been somewhat of an anti-white anti-Christian guy, Christian and non-Christian AA's can celebrate Kwanzaa for their own reasons without being separatists or anti-Christian, just as Christians who celebrate Christmas aren't pagans.

[prisonchaplain]

Apostleknight reminded me of some of the founder of Kwanzaa's radical statements--which probably drive a lot of the frustration that many are expressing about this holiday. I'll just say that Kwanzaa 2006 is probably nothing like Kwanzaa in the 1960s and early 1970s. My understanding is that many Christian churches in the community recognize it, and see it as a celbration of African pride, not of racial separation, etc.

Kwanzaa should be seen for what it is and what it means today, not based on some outrageous quotes from 30 years ago by a few. Much of our Christmas traditions are rooted in German paganism, but the things we do are for the glory of God and the celebration of Jesus.

So, rather than decrying the origins, maybe we should applaud the transformation?

[Outshined]

Apostleknight reminded me of some of the founder of Kwanzaa's radical statements--which probably drive a lot of the frustration that many are expressing about this holiday. I'll just say that Kwanzaa 2006 is probably nothing like Kwanzaa in the 1960s and early 1970s. My understanding is that many Christian churches in the community recognize it, and see it as a celbration of African pride, not of racial separation, etc.

Kwanzaa should be seen for what it is and what it means today, not based on some outrageous quotes from 30 years ago by a few. Much of our Christmas traditions are rooted in German paganism, but the things we do are for the glory of God and the celebration of Jesus.

So, rather than decrying the origins, maybe we should applaud the transformation?

Sounds like something a wise man (or was that wise guy?) said back on the first page of the thread.

I try to bear in mind the spirit in which it is celebrated. True, the guy who invented it was a sadistic nut, but the people who celebrate Kwanzaa today do so with good intent.

They may not know that some of the "traditions" used are from the wrong part of Africa, just as many people do not know that most Christmas traditions have pagan origins. It's why and how you celebrate the holiday, not who invented it.

B)

[Fiannan]

Should I apologize for my non-white ancestors who fought for the Confederacy and did a pretty good job reducing the number of "Yankees"? That was a long time ago though and I don't see a point making slavery an issue of divisiveness today.

I don't see the Arabs or Turks apologizing for enslaving millions of white Christians from Europe ovver the past thousand years. Heck, Turkey doesn't even apologize for exterminating 1.5 million white Christian Armenians in the early part of the 20th. Century

Oh, and as for a great piece of history:

But in the Northern States the Cherokee people saw with alarm a violated Constitution, all civil liberty put in peril, and all the rules of civilized warfare and the dictates of common humanity and decency unhesitatingly disregarded. In States which still adhered to the Union a military despotism has displaced the civil power and the laws became silent amid arms. Free speech and almost free thought became a crime. The right to the writ of habeas corpus, guaranteed by the Constitution, disappeared at the nod of a Secretary of State or a general of the lowest grade. The mandate of the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court was set at naught by the military power, and this outrage on common right approved by a President sworn to support the Constitution. War on the largest scale was waged, and the immense bodies of troops called into the field in the absence of any law warranting it under the pretense of suppressing unlawful combination of men. The humanities of war, which even barbarians respect, were no longer thought worthy to be observed. Foreign mercenaries and the scum of cities and the inmates of prisons were enlisted and organized into regiments and brigades and sent into Southern States to aid in subjugating a people struggling for freedom, to burn, to plunder, and to commit the basest of outrages on women; while the heels of armed tyranny trod upon the necks of Maryland and Missouri, and men of the highest character and position were incarcerated upon suspicion and without process of law in jails, in forts, and in prison-ships, and even women were imprisoned by the arbitrary order of a President and Cabinet ministers; while the press ceased to be free, the publication of newspapers was suspended and their issues seized and destroyed; the officers and men taken prisoners in battle were allowed to remain in captivity by the refusal of their Government to consent to an exchange of prisoners; as they had left their dead on more than one field of battle that had witnessed their defeat to be buried and their wounded to be cared for by Southern hands.

Declaration by the People of the Cherokee Nation of the Causes

Which Have Impelled Them to Unite Their Fortunes With Those of the

Confederate States of America.

http://www.civilwarhome.com/cherokeecauses.htm

[prisonchaplain]

Should I apologize for my non-white ancestors who fought for the Confederacy and did a pretty good job reducing the number of "Yankees"? That was a long time ago though and I don't see a point making slavery an issue of divisiveness today.

Do you believe that African-Americans celebrating their culture automatically brings up the issues of slavery, and demands for apologies from Fiannan for the sins of his ancestors???

When I served as a missionary in Korea, I found out that the U.S. government had signed a secret treaty with Japan, allowing USA to have free reign in the Philippines, while Japan would have full sovereignty over the Korean peninsula. So, when pleads for intervention were sent to D.C. by Christian missionaries concerning Japanese atrocities, they were dutifully ignored.

When I visit the Independence Museaum, and my Korean friends ask me what I think, do I say, "Hey, it wasn't me! Besides, the missionaries tried to help!" Or, do I hear their stories, walk with them awhile in their pain, and then perhaps break the bread of Holy Communion with them, or simply pray together for God to continue his great liberating work in that land--and eventually for liberty in the North?

I don't see the Arabs or Turks apologizing for enslaving millions of white Christians from Europe ovver the past thousand years. Heck, Turkey doesn't even apologize for exterminating 1.5 million white Christian Armenians in the early part of the 20th. Century

Are you holding the Turks up as exemplary in this matter?

[Fiannan]

Okay, the reason I get up in arms over these issues is that few people know squat about history -- they know what Hollywood and maybe some history books in high school implied or taught.

I had the opportunity to observe a high school class that one of my former high school teachers was conducting. One seemingly quiet blond girl, after reading the chapter on American Indians, asked the teacher I knew whay white people seemed to be so mean throughout the ages. The teacher (a Republican of course) said bad things occured in history but each and every race on the planet had done reprehensible things including genocide and slavery. It just seemed part of the human condition.

Now what if the teacher had been a liberal and ran with this line of reasoning? Everyone reading this has probably faced such a teacher who can male even Mother Tereasa look like a fiend (I actually had a couple of professors in college who made humanitarians into villians by condemning them for saving the lives of women who would merely give birth to ten kids and then magnify the problems of poverty).

If people truly understood the complexities of slavery then maybe they would not think it was a plight brought on by whites. Blacks, Arabs, whites and even Chinese bought African slaves. Arabs and Turks frequently captured white Europeans for slavery (the number has been estimated in the millions). Ghengis Khan sure did a job of genocide against white Slavs in the Ukraine and into the near east. And despite the myths of Dances With Wolves Indian tribes were quite nasty towards one another. Then of course we could discuss what killed off 9o% + of the casualties associated with the Conquistadors and it sure wasn't cannons or rifles that did it -- it was unintentional introduction of smallpox, plague, cholera and measles into the Indian populations.

So maybe if history were presented more comprehensibly and instead of the "get whitie" approach then people wouldn't get so ticked over things like Kwanza.

[boyando]

<div class='quotemain'>

If African-Americans (AA hereafter) have a problem with slavery, they shouldn't take it out primarily on the USA. I wonder who sold those slaves to the people who shipped them here from Africa?

I keep getting this undercurrent that Kwanzaa is somehow separatist, and a "taking it out" etc. My understanding is that it's a celebration of African heritage, not a dismissal of whites. So what's the point of saying blacks commit crimes against blacks? Does that make it okay, or less reprehensible that whites did so?

So instead of taking it out on Christmas and caucasians, AA's should celebrate Kwanzaa during Ramadan to separate themselves from the Muslim traditions of their ancient captors.

You do realize that some Christian churches in the AA community celebrate (note the word--nor mourn, not observe, celebrate) Kwanzaa. I just don't get the antagonism here.

P.C.,

I think that the antagonism is because of the original intent of Kwanzaa, to replace Christmas and Christianity with the Marxist view of no God. It could also be the idea that we should be one people, under the ebenezer (banner) of the children of God.

There is nothing that is good for one race, and not good for another. Let me know if I'm wrong. I always want to say that I should be teachable (humble), although I'm sure that pride keeps me from being perfect in this area.

Always Your Friend - allmosthumble

[prisonchaplain]

I think that the antagonism is because of the original intent of Kwanzaa, to replace Christmas and Christianity with the Marxist view of no God. It could also be the idea that we should be one people, under the ebenezer (banner) of the children of God.

Always Your Friend - allmosthumble

If so--and yes, I'd guess you are right, then I'd argue that, just as Christmas has long been about Christ, and not German paganism, so Kwanzaa should be evaluated for what it actually is, not what its founder hoped it would be.

http://arts.osu.edu/ArtEducation/kplayground/kwanzaa.html

Kwanzaa is an African American holiday that occurs every year for seven days, from December 26th to January 1st. Kwanzaa is a Swahili word which means "first fruits of the harvest." The holiday of Kwanzaa was created by Dr. Maulana Ron Karenga in 1966 as part of a new faith system for African Americans, and although his new religion did not catch on, the holiday did. Kwanzaa is not meant to be an African American version of Christmas; it actually has more in common with the U.S. holiday of Thanksgiving or the Yam Festival in Nigeria and Ghana, and the purpose of Kwanzaa is for African Americans to celebrate their heritage and unite them culturally.

(Note that all emphasis marks are my addition)

[boyando]

P.C.,

I 'm on your side.

I'm very conservative in my politics, but I know that it is best to choose your battles.

For me it is a no brainer. why would I choose to say bad things about a holiday, that encourages men and women to be self reliant.

Merry Christmas - allmosthumble