Fight for justice

[Seminarysnoozer]

The other day I was watching a local news program about a story of two families who had family members that were involved in a horrible and controversial event. The story was about a young couple who had died in a horrible way. The family of one of the members of the couple stated that it was the other who caused the death of their family member and the other family argued back that that could not be the case. The case has been going on for years now without much progress in figuring out the truth. The story keeps coming back to the news as they think they have another piece of evidence that might solve the mystery of how they died. In the meantime, the two families have grown more contentious and outwardly hate each other even though before this event they didn't really know each other (it seems). At the end of the story one of the sisters says; "I just want justice served!"

I wonder about the value of "justice served" in this life. Is it really that valuable. It seems to only cause a point of contention and argument, one side arguing for one side of the case and the other defending their position, in the end even if "justice is served" the resultant hatred from one side to the other seems almost greater than the event that started the argument in the first place.

As the world fights for worldly "justice" I think many of my LDS friends get sucked into the whirlwind of such arguments, taking sides for one or the other and making the talk around the 'water cooler' a place for continued contention even though there is no direct connection between the event and their self. They, in essence, have adopted the "fight for justice" as a reason to have an argument.

I think partly TV is to blame, but I think in general there is a love for "justice" that is not healthy or I should say spiritually healthy. Some things we should say, 'let God take care of the justice'. The extreme is the Jerry Springer type shows that is a blatant love for the fight or even "Cheaters" but I think to some degree even fictional stories like "L.A. Law" "Law and Order" etc. foster the love for the "fight for justice".

My question is; Is this a danger to our soul or not?

Answer with this in mind by Marvin J. Ashton; "...Certain people and organizations are trying to provoke us into contention with slander, innuendos, and improper classifications. How unwise we are in today’s society to allow ourselves to become irritated, dismayed, or offended because others seem to enjoy the role of misstating our position or involvement. Our principles or standards will not be less than they are because of the statements of the contentious. Ours is to explain our position through reason, friendly persuasion, and accurate facts. Ours is to stand firm and unyielding on the moral issues of the day and the eternal principles of the gospel, but to contend with no man or organization. Contention builds walls and puts up barriers. Love opens doors. Ours is to be heard and teach. Ours is not only to avoid contention, but to see that such things are done away.

“For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

“Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.” (3 Ne. 11:29, 30.)

We need to be reminded that contention is a striving against one another, especially in controversy or argument. It is to struggle, fight, battle, quarrel, or dispute. Contention never was and never will be an ally of progress. Our loyalty will never be measured by our participation in controversy."

And D&C 136: " 23 Cease to contend one with another; cease to speak evil one of another."

Edited October 17, 2012 by Seminarysnoozer

[Anddenex]

Very intriguing thought Seminary... My first thoughts regarding this post,

I wonder about the value of "justice served" in this life. Is it really that valuable.

I would suggest "yes", it really is this valuable. Both mercy and justice must play a role in our lives. Mercy cannot rob justice and justice cannot rob mercy. It is through justice and mercy, depending on the need, that our human soul does find solace.

Unfortunately, people however have a tendency to be less sober minded than they should. As a result, at times, the desire for justice, is irrational. I am reminded of President Hinckley's talk about the woman who forgave the young man who threw a turkey (I think a turkey), through the window. As a result the woman faced severe injuries. However, she allowed justice to take its toll, however she did not demand the fullest extent our judicial system allowed, but the least amount. This was a perfect blend of justice and mercy.

This is a great quote from Marvin J. Ashton you have shared:

Our principles or standards will not be less than they are because of the statements of the contentious. Ours is to explain our position through reason, friendly persuasion, and accurate facts. Ours is to stand firm and unyielding on the moral issues of the day and the eternal principles of the gospel, but to contend with no man or organization. Contention builds walls and puts up barriers. Love opens doors. Ours is to be heard and teach. Ours is not only to avoid contention, but to see that such things are done away.

This is difficult however, because even when one is using reason, friendly persuasion, and accurate facts, others tend to get contentious anyways.

The balance between contention and standing up for your feelings, or accurate facts, can be very blurry, and the end result still leads to contention from one side. The only way to truly avoid contention is to avoid any type of dialogue with some people.

[JudoMinja]

I believe that our justice system, when utilized properly, serves a very important purpose. There was, afterall, a system of judges established in the Book of Mormon, and we see several areas in scripture where serious crimes were dealt with very judicously.

Temporal consequences for our temporal decisions are an important part of the learning process of this life. There are many decisions people make which will not have any immediate consequences on their lives, but on other people's lives- and we need a justice system to at least attempt to balance things out and teach the individual that their decisions do indeed have adverse consequences. This system also helps protect people who would become victims of further rash and terrible decisions.

Of course, there are many small things that shouldn't really need to be handled by the justice system and we could get along just fine if people were more forgiving and merciful instead of "seeking justice" for every petty hurt or crime. I think many things get brought before the courts that could have been settled between individuals if everyone had just been willing to be understanding and forgiving.

This also brings to mind something my father would always tell us- though I don't know if there's anything doctrinal on it: We only face "justice" for our actions once. God isn't going to reap His justice if we've already served it temporally. And temporal justice is more leanient than His FINAL justice- so it's better to face it here and get it over with. Of course- as I said- that's just an anecdote from my father, and I don't know if that's really the way it works. I'm sure it's partially correct, but I think more accurate is that God's justice is perfect, as is His mercy. So, there's no need for Him to exact more justice from someone who already suffered the consequences for their actions, and if they are repentant and utilize the atonement, such falls on the Savior's shoulders instead of their own.

I think it is important for us to maintain an accurate temporal justice system that works, as best we can manage, in immitation of God's perfect justice system. Likewise, we should strive to immitate His perfect mercy. And of course, of us it is required to forgive all men.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Very intriguing thought Seminary... My first thoughts regarding this post,

I would suggest "yes", it really is this valuable. Both mercy and justice must play a role in our lives. Mercy cannot rob justice and justice cannot rob mercy. It is through justice and mercy, depending on the need, that our human soul does find solace.

Unfortunately, people however have a tendency to be less sober minded than they should. As a result, at times, the desire for justice, is irrational. I am reminded of President Hinckley's talk about the woman who forgave the young man who threw a turkey (I think a turkey), through the window. As a result the woman faced severe injuries. However, she allowed justice to take its toll, however she did not demand the fullest extent our judicial system allowed, but the least amount. This was a perfect blend of justice and mercy.

This is a great quote from Marvin J. Ashton you have shared:

This is difficult however, because even when one is using reason, friendly persuasion, and accurate facts, others tend to get contentious anyways.

The balance between contention and standing up for your feelings, or accurate facts, can be very blurry, and the end result still leads to contention from one side. The only way to truly avoid contention is to avoid any type of dialogue with some people.

Thanks for your comments, that is a good example. So, "justice served" needs to be couched with mercy to be served well.

I guess what I was also asking about where these cases in which "justice" does not directly affect the individuals who are contentious over it. If one argues who is right about a case seen on TV for example, that "justice served" seems like it is nothing to fight over. Or even in cases where, say a family member was killed, even if "Justice is served" here in this life (not taking about God's justice) what good did that do the family member. And even if it did some good, does Satan win in the end because all along as the person was "fighting for justice" they had contentious hearts, anger and would do anything, even disregard the needs of their own family for a period of time or pay large sums of money to a lawyer to "fight for justice". You think, even then, it is valuable?

My feeling is that God will take care of "justice" and balance it out with mercy without the "fight". That doesn't mean we can't stand up for what is right and state the truth with conviction but to do it all in the name of "justice" seems like not a good fight to get into. An example of that are these "cold cases" where the victims and maybe even the perpetrator are long gone. I think God will tie up all those loose ends just fine. What is the eternal value of earthly justice (not God's) won or lost, in other words?

[Seminarysnoozer]

I believe that our justice system, when utilized properly, serves a very important purpose. There was, afterall, a system of judges established in the Book of Mormon, and we see several areas in scripture where serious crimes were dealt with very judicously.

Temporal consequences for our temporal decisions are an important part of the learning process of this life. There are many decisions people make which will not have any immediate consequences on their lives, but on other people's lives- and we need a justice system to at least attempt to balance things out and teach the individual that their decisions do indeed have adverse consequences. This system also helps protect people who would become victims of further rash and terrible decisions.

Of course, there are many small things that shouldn't really need to be handled by the justice system and we could get along just fine if people were more forgiving and merciful instead of "seeking justice" for every petty hurt or crime. I think many things get brought before the courts that could have been settled between individuals if everyone had just been willing to be understanding and forgiving.

This also brings to mind something my father would always tell us- though I don't know if there's anything doctrinal on it: We only face "justice" for our actions once. God isn't going to reap His justice if we've already served it temporally. And temporal justice is more leanient than His FINAL justice- so it's better to face it here and get it over with. Of course- as I said- that's just an anecdote from my father, and I don't know if that's really the way it works. I'm sure it's partially correct, but I think more accurate is that God's justice is perfect, as is His mercy. So, there's no need for Him to exact more justice from someone who already suffered the consequences for their actions, and if they are repentant and utilize the atonement, such falls on the Savior's shoulders instead of their own.

I think it is important for us to maintain an accurate temporal justice system that works, as best we can manage, in immitation of God's perfect justice system. Likewise, we should strive to immitate His perfect mercy. And of course, of us it is required to forgive all men.

I think I agree with everything you are saying but I am looking at it from the perspective of the individual who is "fighting for justice". Not necessarily the people who are in the business of fighting for justice but of the person who takes up that banner just for the sake of "justice" alone, i.e. - there is no personal or family member tangible benefit other than some hard to understand value of being able to say the phrase "justice was served". The fight is simply for that statement, nothing else. In other words, what, in those cases, would be lost if "justice wasn't served"? The only thing lost is the person who was fighting for justice's lost time and a peacemaker, turn-the-other-cheek spirit swapping it for a contentious one.

[JudoMinja]

So it is the "fighting" more than the "serving" that seems off to you? I agree with you there. I think that fighting for justice to be served is far too contentious. The only time I see fighting for anything as really appropriate, is when individuals are fighting to protect and defend lives and/or freedoms. Sometimes this means fighting to see justice served- but in a very different manner than what you're describing. I see no reason for people to quarrel over the results of cold cases and think that they hurt their own souls doing so.

[BadWolf]

The vast majority of crimes are committed by repeat offenders.

- Wife beaters

- Child abusers

- Serial rapists

- Gang crimes

- Confidence schemes

- Assault & battery

- Drunk driving

- Vehicular manslaughter /homicide

- Torture

- Homicide

The list goes on and on...

'Justice' is not merely punishment, nor just a deterrent, nor even to protect society from that person committing crime after crime on victim after victim...

'Justice' is an evolving concept, that rather than shaping our mores, is defined by our morals. Our SENSE of justice changes as we do as a people (nation, nations).

That requires conversation. An ongoing and evolving dialogue.

So, I would personally posit that far from avoiding these talks... Or consigning them to gossip... That instead we encourage MORE ethical debate. MORE conversations. MORE awareness. MORE responsibility.

((So, I have all of my family's textbooks from the 1800's to the mid 1970's (when books ceased to be bought as college books are bought). Civics, very specifically 'Civic Duty', and the concept that Justice is something we are all responsible for on a day to day basis... Was first watered down in the 1940's, and then entirely erased in the 1970s. Probably first of in response to the Great Depression, and then the Vietnam war, but that's just speculation on my part. It was REPLACED by 'Social Studies'. I find the distinction to be VERY key. In Civics, from primary onward, children were taught to be active participants. In social studies, from primary onward, children are taught to observe. From activity to docility. From being taught HOW to learn, to being taught WHAT to learn. By and large, our grandparents were taught to act, their children taught to watch. Furthermore, these days, actions are almost universally punished. The kid who breaks up a fight suspended -and told to 'stay out of it and get a grownup' as punished as the kids fighting. The kid who stands up for another kid, punished until they can stand quietly in line, while injustice happens all around them. It's huge. It takes away our power. And the powerless have only one option: complaining.

I am NOT advocating 'vigilante justice' or 'street justice' -much-. Having a system of laws is that are followed by most, and trusted to be enforced, is one of the signs of a healthy civilization. HOWEVER, apathy... A learned powerlessness of individuals... is a sickly substitute.

Consigning ethical discussions of justice to gossip, strips away their power. Ethical discussions SHOULD lead to ethical actions. Stripping away the power of conscience action is a very dangerous experiment currently being conducted.))

I very strongly believed we SHOULD be having these conversations rather than avoiding them. That we SHOULD be teaching out children to act in their daily lives. And ghat we SHOULD recognize the ENOURMOUS power such ability to weigh and act imparts... Both on a micro and macro level.

I think that a lot of the 'shows' are so popular because Justice, civics, and civic duty are NOT taught, nor taught to be acted upon. Those who can't do, watch. Those who are doing are too busy learning, acting, growing, and implementing to be interested in something they think about and exercise every single day.

My .02

[Anddenex]

And even if it did some good, does Satan win in the end because all along as the person was "fighting for justice" they had contentious hearts, anger and would do anything, even disregard the needs of their own family for a period of time or pay large sums of money to a lawyer to "fight for justice". You think, even then, it is valuable?

This is another great question. The connotation behind "fighting" I think is my hang up. Yes, we should "fight for justice", however if our fighting results in a loss of the spirit within ourselves, then I think this is where we have gone to far. The greatest of all attributes is charity, and I believe we can still fight for justice with charity, or better said, allow justice to be served, without a vengeful appetite.

As pertaining to your last question, I think it really depends on the justice we are seeking, and at times, the disregard (or what others may call a disregard of their individual family needs) of personal family needs may be justified.

If someone stole a TV, and the person is fighting for 10 years to life, but the person only receives 3 months in jail, and the individual whose TV was stolen is now going back to the judges, and courts, to get more from the perp, then yes, this has gone to far.

My feeling is that God will take care of "justice" and balance it out with mercy without the "fight". That doesn't mean we can't stand up for what is right and state the truth with conviction but to do it all in the name of "justice" seems like not a good fight to get into. An example of that are these "cold cases" where the victims and maybe even the perpetrator are long gone. I think God will tie up all those loose ends just fine. What is the eternal value of earthly justice (not God's) won or lost, in other words?

I agree with you that God will balance out the justice and mercy in the end, however in this life when justice is not served to perps, I think it can be very hard for the survivor. You mentioned killing. I am thinking rape. A woman is raped, seeks justice, and doesn't find any, and the rapist is set free. This is where the need for justice becomes blurred. The individual sought the justice a person truly deserves but they are set free.

Thus, the pain and emotional trauma doesn't have any reconciliation in this life. Some of these women continue to live in fear, they sometimes result in suicides, and other times these individuals overcome.

What is the point at which 'fighting for justice" becomes detrimental to the person? I believe it is when the person appears to be no longer in control of their emotions. They become fixated, and loose the spirit. However, this is very easy for me to say since I have never been apart of this.

I have to admit though, if a person assaulted one of my daughters, and justice in the courts wasn't served, hmm... I would hope that I would act in accordance with the gospel, but there would be a void knowing that justice wasn't served, as it should have been.

[JudoMinja]

I agree with you that God will balance out the justice and mercy in the end, however in this life when justice is not served to perps, I think it can be very hard for the survivor. You mentioned killing. I am thinking rape. A woman is raped, seeks justice, and doesn't find any, and the rapist is set free. This is where the need for justice becomes blurred. The individual sought the justice a person truly deserves but they are set free.

Thus, the pain and emotional trauma doesn't have any reconciliation in this life. Some of these women continue to live in fear, they sometimes result in suicides, and other times these individuals overcome.

I know not all who've been victimized by something like this will think along the same lines as myself, but I really don't see how seeking justice for the one responsible helps with the victim's healing process. It may give you peace-of-mind that they aren't going to come after you or someone else again, but the healing from the emotional trauma is an entirely separate issue, and I think that those bent on finding justice for their attacker are probably a bit slower to heal than those able to let it go.

After I left my ex, for example, I never did anything to seek legal ramifications for his actions, and I think that if I had it only would have drawn out my healing process and made it take longer. I did what I had to do to make sure my son and I would be safe- made sure he had no visitation in the divorce paperwork- but I never charged him criminally with abuse and I never took it up with his parole officer. I also never sought to make him pay for all the debts he accrued in my name while we were together and currently don't hound him for child-support. It is easier, safer, and better for me to just cut him out of my life and have absolutely no contact, and I don't see how seeking justice would have made things any better for myself, him, or anyone else.

This easily could have turned into one of those "justice battles" with my family pitted against his family and everyone becoming contentious and bitter over the whole thing, but I saw no benefit in letting that happen and knew things would only get ugly all around. And if justice had been served in the end, I don't think I would have felt any feelings of satisfaction or healing. Just empty and spent, and probably full of regret for all the hurt the matter would have brought out.

If I was fearful that he'd seek me out to cause me more harm, certainly I would have taken it to the courts, expecting them to help me put him behind bars so I wouldn't have to worry about myself, my son, or others getting hurt. I think that in cases of rape where the victim is fearful of another attack or that the rapist will go on to rape someone else, they should definitely try to find justice- but not so much for healing as for safety. Finding justice won't help you heal. It's finding forgiveness that does that. Justice in cases where someone is going to continue being a threat to others WILL help victims in that they won't have to be fearful anymore, but it won't heal them.

[Seminarysnoozer]

'Justice' is an evolving concept, that rather than shaping our mores, is defined by our morals. Our SENSE of justice changes as we do as a people (nation, nations).

Why isn't this our (meaning LDS people) sense of justice; "26 For the atonement satisfieth the demands of his justice upon all those who have not the law given to them"

And

2 Nephi 9: "17 O the greatness and the justice of our God! For he executeth all his words, and they have gone forth out of his mouth, and his law must be fulfilled."

And Ecclesiastes 5: " 8 If thou seest the oppression of the poor, and violent perverting of judgment and justice in a province, marvel not at the matter: for he that is higher than the highest regardeth; and there be higher than they."

And JST Luke 3:" 9 To administer justice unto all; to come down in judgment upon all, and to convince all the ungodly of their ungodly deeds, which they have committed; and all this in the day that he shall come;

10 For it is a day of power; yea, every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways made smooth;"

And

3 Nephi 20:"20 And it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that the sword of my justice shall hang over them at that day; and except they repent it shall fall upon them, saith the Father, yea, even upon all the nations of the Gentiles."

And I think this is the pitfall of "fighting for justice";

3 Nephi 14:"2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

Maybe we should be fighting for repentance and not "fighting for justice".

[Anddenex]

I did what I had to do to make sure my son and I would be safe- made sure he had no visitation in the divorce paperwork-

Thank you for your thoughts. I think this sums up my thoughts by this question, "And if your ex did gain rights to not only him having visiting rights, but also where your son would have to stay with him on the weekends, how then would you have responded?"

I will provide another story. An ex has visiting rights and that the children are to spend one month with the ex. The ex finds out that the boyfriend of the ex molested his children. Justice is being sought. The evidence mounted up against the boyfriend, but the ex didn't receive any recourse. The children are now back with the ex who allowed and full well knew what was happening to the children. How far do you go to "fight" for the justice of these children?

No amount of forgiveness is going to protect these children from another boyfriend.

I would agree that a person needs to forgive. I would also admit that justice needs to take place. This I believe will help those who have been hurt to heal also.

[Seminarysnoozer]

This is another great question. The connotation behind "fighting" I think is my hang up. Yes, we should "fight for justice", however if our fighting results in a loss of the spirit within ourselves, then I think this is where we have gone to far. The greatest of all attributes is charity, and I believe we can still fight for justice with charity, or better said, allow justice to be served, without a vengeful appetite.

As pertaining to your last question, I think it really depends on the justice we are seeking, and at times, the disregard (or what others may call a disregard of their individual family needs) of personal family needs may be justified.

If someone stole a TV, and the person is fighting for 10 years to life, but the person only receives 3 months in jail, and the individual whose TV was stolen is now going back to the judges, and courts, to get more from the perp, then yes, this has gone to far.

I agree with you that God will balance out the justice and mercy in the end, however in this life when justice is not served to perps, I think it can be very hard for the survivor. You mentioned killing. I am thinking rape. A woman is raped, seeks justice, and doesn't find any, and the rapist is set free. This is where the need for justice becomes blurred. The individual sought the justice a person truly deserves but they are set free.

Thus, the pain and emotional trauma doesn't have any reconciliation in this life. Some of these women continue to live in fear, they sometimes result in suicides, and other times these individuals overcome.

What is the point at which 'fighting for justice" becomes detrimental to the person? I believe it is when the person appears to be no longer in control of their emotions. They become fixated, and loose the spirit. However, this is very easy for me to say since I have never been apart of this.

I have to admit though, if a person assaulted one of my daughters, and justice in the courts wasn't served, hmm... I would hope that I would act in accordance with the gospel, but there would be a void knowing that justice wasn't served, as it should have been.

Thanks for your comments. Yes, I think when I used the phrase "fight for justice" automatically people would think I am talking about "justice" alone. I tried to make it clear that I am talking about the pitfalls of "fighting for justice" for justice sake alone, meaning nobody is currently being victimized by whatever the issue, the slap across the cheek has come and gone ... now what? Do you fight or turn the other cheek?

It is like money being different from the "love of money". I realize this but that is why I am saying some of these shows, even news shows as well as fictional shows about "justice" glorify the idea of reaching justice or fighting for justice ... "I won't rest until justice is served!" kind of attitude. As if that attitude is a praiseworthy one. Is that our job or God's? Can justice really be carried out in this life, earthly justice can but I don't know if the one that is really worth fighting over can, which is the kind of justice in which the demands of justice are met, through the Savior, by repentance or punishment. So, the battle shouldn't be for justice, but for repentance. I think there is a difference when we think of it that way. I really doubt "Law and Order" is going to have an episode that ends with "Repentance served!"

[Seminarysnoozer]

I agree with you that God will balance out the justice and mercy in the end, however in this life when justice is not served to perps, I think it can be very hard for the survivor. You mentioned killing. I am thinking rape. A woman is raped, seeks justice, and doesn't find any, and the rapist is set free. This is where the need for justice becomes blurred. The individual sought the justice a person truly deserves but they are set free.

Thus, the pain and emotional trauma doesn't have any reconciliation in this life. Some of these women continue to live in fear, they sometimes result in suicides, and other times these individuals overcome.

So, in this example you gave, you think that a "fight for justice" alleviates the outcome of the horrible event?

In the eyes of a devout LDS woman who understands and wholeheartedly believes in the justice of God, which rapist is set free? Free from the all seeing eye of God? Of course, nobody is perfect in this life but when we talk about what we should be doing, such as in this situation, is it to be angry with the perpetrator or show love to him? Love your enemy - I don't think that phrase is a nothing phrase, or does it really mean nothing.

I am not trying to be cold, I have a close girlfriend who was raped. I have actually done my share of "fighting for justice" for her even but all I found was hatred in my heart. The most effective thing I could do for her was console her and mourn with her and help remind her that the rapist does not escape the all seeing eye of God and her sufferings are noted by God. There is only one who could make it right if the individual doesn't repent.

[JudoMinja]

If I had been unable to get "no visitation", I would have fought for it and would have taken the criminal matters further to make sure I got it, as I do not feel my son would have been safe with the ex. As I said, where safety is concerned, I think it is right to seek justice. That is exactly the kind of situation the justice system is for. If it is working properly, it should result in the protection of the victims. I think that justice can provide a much needed sense of security for those who are fearful of further harm, and it certainly protects individuals from repeat offenses.

Healing from the damage that caused one to need to seek out that justice though, is separate. Maybe for some seeing that justice done helps them heal, but I personally don't see how it would. If I'd had to turn my divorce into a battle in order to have the sense of safety I now have for myself and my son, I think it would have only dug my emotional wounds deeper and possibly spread the damage to family members that got caught up in the battle- and seeing justice served at the end of it wouldn't have made that any better.

Perhaps my distinction is a minute one, but it is an important one to me. There are cases where justice is important and should be sought out, even if it does result in a "fight" or "battle" in order to get it. But the purpose of that fight should be to find safety and protection for victims and/or potential future victims, not healing.

[Seminarysnoozer]

If I was fearful that he'd seek me out to cause me more harm, certainly I would have taken it to the courts, expecting them to help me put him behind bars so I wouldn't have to worry about myself, my son, or others getting hurt. I think that in cases of rape where the victim is fearful of another attack or that the rapist will go on to rape someone else, they should definitely try to find justice- but not so much for healing as for safety. Finding justice won't help you heal. It's finding forgiveness that does that. Justice in cases where someone is going to continue being a threat to others WILL help victims in that they won't have to be fearful anymore, but it won't heal them.

Thanks for your comments. I agree with you.

I want to clarify that I was talking about people who are not the victims and not the witness to a crime etc. as well as not talking about those who have been employed to do a certain job to carry out the law. I am more talking about the result of "fighting for justice" that puts in a person's heart the desire that a certain person "pays" for their crime right now. Like the stirring up of that emotion by watching the evening news. I think that thought of "fight for justice" may be a subtle tool of Satan to stir up contention and hatred and even fear. I wish people wouldn't fall into that trap. Then Satan wins twice, the perpetrator and the fallout of hatred that follows.

[JudoMinja]

Thanks for your comments. I agree with you.

I want to clarify that I was talking about people who are not the victims and not the witness to a crime etc. as well as not talking about those who have been employed to do a certain job to carry out the law. I am more talking about the result of "fighting for justice" that puts in a person's heart the desire that a certain person "pays" for their crime right now. Like the stirring up of that emotion by watching the evening news. I think that thought of "fight for justice" may be a subtle tool of Satan to stir up contention and hatred and even fear. I wish people wouldn't fall into that trap. Then Satan wins twice, the perpetrator and the fallout of hatred that follows.

I think what you are describing here is something I've seen many times that tends to make me cringe and feel sick to my stomach. (It was brought up in another thread on here recently, but I can't remember which one right now.) That is the attitude people have when they seek to dish out what others "deserve". I always cringe when I hear phrases like "I hope he gets what he deserves" or "Good for them. They deserved it." etc.

This seems to go pretty much hand-in-hand with those who become so bent on seeing someone "pay" for their crime/action/slight/sin. The only word I can think of that comes close to summing up this attitude/feeling is "vengeful". I can't stand it when I hear or see someone being vengeful. I think those with this attitude get so caught up in the hurts and the wrongs that they fail to recognize the person responsible for the damage as a person anymore.

Vengence doesn't make anything better. Satan certainly does win twice when people become vengeful, because he's captured not only the perpetrator but the individuals now overcome with a vengeful spirit. I think it may even be harder for those being vengeful than it would be for the original wrong-doer to overcome and repent of their sin, as it is something that completely sickens their spirit.

[Traveler]

Thanks for your comments. I agree with you.

I want to clarify that I was talking about people who are not the victims and not the witness to a crime etc. as well as not talking about those who have been employed to do a certain job to carry out the law. I am more talking about the result of "fighting for justice" that puts in a person's heart the desire that a certain person "pays" for their crime right now. Like the stirring up of that emotion by watching the evening news. I think that thought of "fight for justice" may be a subtle tool of Satan to stir up contention and hatred and even fear. I wish people wouldn't fall into that trap. Then Satan wins twice, the perpetrator and the fallout of hatred that follows.

Hmmmmm So do you think the characters of Zorro, Batman, Superman, Iron Man and other glamorized imaginary heroes are inspired by Satan?

The Traveler

[Anddenex]

Thanks for your comments. Yes, I think when I used the phrase "fight for justice" automatically people would think I am talking about "justice" alone. I tried to make it clear that I am talking about the pitfalls of "fighting for justice" for justice sake alone, meaning nobody is currently being victimized by whatever the issue, the slap across the cheek has come and gone ... now what? Do you fight or turn the other cheek?

It is like money being different from the "love of money". I realize this but that is why I am saying some of these shows, even news shows as well as fictional shows about "justice" glorify the idea of reaching justice or fighting for justice ... "I won't rest until justice is served!" kind of attitude. As if that attitude is a praiseworthy one. Is that our job or God's? Can justice really be carried out in this life, earthly justice can but I don't know if the one that is really worth fighting over can, which is the kind of justice in which the demands of justice are met, through the Savior, by repentance or punishment. So, the battle shouldn't be for justice, but for repentance. I think there is a difference when we think of it that way. I really doubt "Law and Order" is going to have an episode that ends with "Repentance served!"

In this scenario, I would say we move on, and allow the Lord to balance it as you have suggested.

[Anddenex]

So, in this example you gave, you think that a "fight for justice" alleviates the outcome of the horrible event?

In the eyes of a devout LDS woman who understands and wholeheartedly believes in the justice of God, which rapist is set free? Free from the all seeing eye of God? Of course, nobody is perfect in this life but when we talk about what we should be doing, such as in this situation, is it to be angry with the perpetrator or show love to him? Love your enemy - I don't think that phrase is a nothing phrase, or does it really mean nothing.

I am not trying to be cold, I have a close girlfriend who was raped. I have actually done my share of "fighting for justice" for her even but all I found was hatred in my heart. The most effective thing I could do for her was console her and mourn with her and help remind her that the rapist does not escape the all seeing eye of God and her sufferings are noted by God. There is only one who could make it right if the individual doesn't repent.

Excellent question. I think the fight for justice does alleviate the outcome if a person remains in control over their emotions. Is vengeance the primary motivation or is justice the primary motivation?

If vengeance is the primary motivation then I would with my whole heart disagree. If, justice is the primary reason for fighting, and a person doesn't loose who they are, then yes, I would say it means everything.

Once, the sentence has been given, and a person has done all they can, they should seek no more and leave it alone.

When the justice of man doesn't meat out and appropriate sentence, then the person must leave it up to God.

I would say "Love your enemy" means everything. Yet, I don't believe the idea of seeking justice denies the ability to love your enemy. Could we say that it is through love that we seek justice?

When I think about Love your enemy, I think about Ammon and his brethren who were mocked and made fun of by the Nephites. Yet they went among a people who thoroughly hated the Nephites, and were taught to murder them.

I think of Zeniff when they first went to live in their original land. Zeniff saw good among the Lamanites, others did not. Zeniff wanted peace, others wanted death for them. Zeniff was in the right, but unfortunately the desire for past justice lead to the killing of brothers and fathers, and they having to relate the tale when they got back home.

Yet, if a Lamanite were to come and murder a Nephite, they would be appropriate to seek justice, and not think, well, since God said love our enemy, let us let him go.

Hopefully this clears up some of my thoughts. :)

[Seminarysnoozer]

Excellent question. I think the fight for justice does alleviate the outcome if a person remains in control over their emotions. Is vengeance the primary motivation or is justice the primary motivation?

If vengeance is the primary motivation then I would with my whole heart disagree. If, justice is the primary reason for fighting, and a person doesn't loose who they are, then yes, I would say it means everything.

Once, the sentence has been given, and a person has done all they can, they should seek no more and leave it alone.

When the justice of man doesn't meat out and appropriate sentence, then the person must leave it up to God.

I would say "Love your enemy" means everything. Yet, I don't believe the idea of seeking justice denies the ability to love your enemy. Could we say that it is through love that we seek justice?

When I think about Love your enemy, I think about Ammon and his brethren who were mocked and made fun of by the Nephites. Yet they went among a people who thoroughly hated the Nephites, and were taught to murder them.

I think of Zeniff when they first went to live in their original land. Zeniff saw good among the Lamanites, others did not. Zeniff wanted peace, others wanted death for them. Zeniff was in the right, but unfortunately the desire for past justice lead to the killing of brothers and fathers, and they having to relate the tale when they got back home.

Yet, if a Lamanite were to come and murder a Nephite, they would be appropriate to seek justice, and not think, well, since God said love our enemy, let us let him go.

Hopefully this clears up some of my thoughts. :)

Not to be too picky but remember those examples you gave were before Jesus came to give the higher law.

In fact, I think Zeniff is the perfect example of what I am talking about. It doesn't matter if one is right or wrong, sometimes being over-zealous can be a problem even when a person is right. According to the law of Moses, maybe Zeniff was in the right; the whole eye for an eye thing. If they took his land he has the right to go back and take it back. Even a generation later. I think Jesus would look at that situation differently if they were living the higher law. I think He probably would tell Zeniff to not try to take the land back by force as this would cause contention. He would probably tell them to not worry about land and just send missionaries over, or something of that sort. In other words, don't enforce justice, love them first and let Jesus worry about enforcing the justice.

[Anddenex]

Not to be too picky but remember those examples you gave were before Jesus came to give the higher law.

Agreed, however, I get to be picky also. The Book of Mormon was given for our day and time, that we may liken it unto ourselves.

In fact, I think Zeniff is the perfect example of what I am talking about. It doesn't matter if one is right or wrong, sometimes being over-zealous can be a problem even when a person is right. According to the law of Moses, maybe Zeniff was in the right; the whole eye for an eye thing. If they took his land he has the right to go back and take it back. Even a generation later. I think Jesus would look at that situation differently if they were living the higher law. I think He probably would tell Zeniff to not try to take the land back by force as this would cause contention. He would probably tell them to not worry about land and just send missionaries over, or something of that sort. In other words, don't enforce justice, love them first and let Jesus worry about enforcing the justice.

Great thought. I would agree because Zenith was "over-zealous", not just zealous. I personally feel that the Lord would say it is up to you, but be temperate in all things.

The moment we are "over-zealous" in any attribute (e.g. love, kindness, justice, mercy, etc...) we are no longer following the Lord's counsel, but we are trusting in our own arm of the flesh.