Non-LDS perspective on Acts 4:32-5:11

[prisonchaplain]

My good friends anatess and prisonchaplain:

Sorry – I just do not “get” it. If you personally have experience – I will try to understand but perhaps I am too much like Thomas – until I have something with which I can relate and understand – I must be honest and admit – it is a problem for me.

The Traveler

This may be a matter of nuance, but do not most sincere followers of God find certain teachings or circumstances to be beyond understanding? We wonder how some things can be true given our experience at the time. In some cases we doubt. However, we trust God. So we say, "Lord, I do not understand--cannot understand. However, I trust you, so this is a matter I shall place on the back burner until you choose to enlighten me."

Personally, I do not accept that faith-promoting rumors (i.e. Christian urban legends) would make it into the Bible. On the other hand, there are certain stories that are still difficult to understand. Father's asking Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, for example, is a tough one. I totally see the beauty of Abraham's faith. However, it does not seem like God's character to ask for a human sacrifice. Of course, we also know of a smattering of horrific incidences in which deranged individuals have actually done such things, claiming God told them to. Rather than conclude that the story is not true, or is only a parable or analogy, I accept that which I understand, and I trust God for what I don't.

[AnthonyB]

Would hope for more of that kind of power in the church today.

This playing fast and loose with all that God has made holy will have a payday someday.

Norah,

I think there is still a payday for sin. Your comment reminded me of the Steve Taylor song "Sin for a season", which talks about the consequences of sin, even ones that God may forgiven. One verse has a woman, who has drunk too much, hit a father and son, and "Now the years run together as her guilt goes wild, She still sees the body of an only child"

[Traveler]

I guess I don't understand what about it poses a problem for you. Say, what's the difference between that and the story of Lot's wife? Or do you also have a problem with Lot's wife? It confuses me because a gigantic portion of the Bible and the Book of Mormon are stories such as these. Jonah eaten by a whale and spit back out... Daniel in the lion's den... and... Jesus Christ healed the lepers, the blind, the lame, resurrected Lazarus, and.... finally... rose from the dead. All very fantastical.

I can relate to Jonah, Daniel and others that have been "blessed". In some stories there appears to be deeper symbolic meaning beyond the story - as with Lazarus. What I do not relate to are the ideas that G-d strikes down those that try and fall short - for whatever reason.

Again if you have such a personal experience - I might be able to understand what you are trying to say - but if you expect G-d to treat you, your children and those you love should you ever have a moment of doubt that demonstrates such consistency of G-d in these matters - please do not be reluctant to share your example. If it is a case of not wanting to do so publicly - please send a personal message of you personal experience. For me - I have no such personal experience - though I have sought for deeper understanding I have not received any spiritual confirmation - yet. But I have heard many try to account for and excuse what they think happened in scripture - but no personal witness.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

This may be a matter of nuance, but do not most sincere followers of God find certain teachings or circumstances to be beyond understanding? We wonder how some things can be true given our experience at the time. In some cases we doubt. However, we trust God. So we say, "Lord, I do not understand--cannot understand. However, I trust you, so this is a matter I shall place on the back burner until you choose to enlighten me."

Personally, I do not accept that faith-promoting rumors (i.e. Christian urban legends) would make it into the Bible. On the other hand, there are certain stories that are still difficult to understand. Father's asking Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, for example, is a tough one. I totally see the beauty of Abraham's faith. However, it does not seem like God's character to ask for a human sacrifice. Of course, we also know of a smattering of horrific incidences in which deranged individuals have actually done such things, claiming God told them to. Rather than conclude that the story is not true, or is only a parable or analogy, I accept that which I understand, and I trust God for what I don't.

I believe that it is the intent of G-d that we have experience that teaches us of him and helps us understand him. I believe that we should model ourselves and how we treat others in the same manner that he teaches us by his example toward us.

If you believe that this story in Acts is how you should teach and treat your children should they ever lie to you or if you treat you neighbors in like manner? I know and observe differently concerning you - and I do not believe you are any more capable of such action yourself than am I. What I do not understand is why anyone would say they believe something - just because it was in the Bible but have no intent - what-so-ever to ever put such belief into actual action in their lives especially with those they love. Or if they were to do such a thing - I would think they are misguided and have misunderstood G-d and his scriptures. Or as Jesus once said to certain apostles - you do not know what spirit you are of.

Now - concerning Abraham and the sacrifice of Isaac - as I have said, it seems that G-d intends that we have experience that teaches us of him and of Jesus Christ that was sent for us. Would it help you to understand this epoch if Isaac was a man in his early 30’s and the exact spot where the sacrifice was to be; would later be call by a different name - “Golgotha”. I know a great man who was like unto Abraham who lost a son that was in the service of G-d and his fellow man; that great man came to know the nature of G-d much more because of it. That I can relate - yes I can understand.

The Traveler

[norah63]

Does it seem to others that the power of the church is tied to the principal of having all things common?

If so, as a body of believers, we have made the choice to walk another way. And sacrificed the power.

Reading on after verse 11 in chpt 5, it states that the effect of that power shown was that many didn't want to associate with them, yet held them in high esteem.

Multitudes were constantly added, and healing power was great.

You can either try and think the gospel to death, or agree and live it to life.

I pray for the times of the latter.

[Traveler]

Does it seem to others that the power of the church is tied to the principal of having all things common?

If so, as a body of believers, we have made the choice to walk another way. And sacrificed the power.

Reading on after verse 11 in chpt 5, it states that the effect of that power shown was that many didn't want to associate with them, yet held them in high esteem.

Multitudes were constantly added, and healing power was great.

You can either try and think the gospel to death, or agree and live it to life.

I pray for the times of the latter.

The point is to what is it that we must agree? If the ways of G-d are such a mystery to man that they cannot be understood and followed - is it not then a "lie" to try?

I find it interesting that many religious thinkers will blame other humans that fail (such as Adam and Eve) saying that they rebelled against G-d and deserve justice. But whenever it comes to their failure to understand and do - they blame G-d saying his ways are too great and man cannot understand such things. In essence they say others fail because they will not; therefore they deserve justice. But their failures they dismiss saying it is because they cannot. Therefore they deserve mercy.

The Traveler

[norah63]

To agree is really not so hard as some would make it. Jesus said a little child could understand.

Most of us think we can at least grasp what a little child could. Does anyone honestly think that our loving Heavenly Father or His precious Son Jesus would put things so complicated that we would fail?

Religious thinkers are the problem, not the answer.

Revelations 21;8, doesn't speak well of those who tamper with truth.

We don't beat our self up because we are still learning. Children learn.

Do you really think it a"lie" to want more of what has already been paid for at the cross,

just because you can't wrap your mind around it?

An old hymn comes to mind, it goes, "we limit not the truth of God to our poor reach of mind"

That is a sermon in and of its self. Trust and obey, tell Father what you long for, He loves us so much,

and what we do not yet comprehend, he will gently lead, if we trust and obey.

[Traveler]

To agree is really not so hard as some would make it. Jesus said a little child could understand.

Most of us think we can at least grasp what a little child could. Does anyone honestly think that our loving Heavenly Father or His precious Son Jesus would put things so complicated that we would fail?

Religious thinkers are the problem, not the answer.

Revelations 21;8, doesn't speak well of those who tamper with truth.

We don't beat our self up because we are still learning. Children learn.

Do you really think it a"lie" to want more of what has already been paid for at the cross,

just because you can't wrap your mind around it?

An old hymn comes to mind, it goes, "we limit not the truth of God to our poor reach of mind"

That is a sermon in and of its self. Trust and obey, tell Father what you long for, He loves us so much,

and what we do not yet comprehend, he will gently lead, if we trust and obey.

It is a lie to try for something that cannot be. But it is faith to believe in something that can be but appears not to be possible at the offset.

Partial differential equations may seem impossible to understand to a beginning student in mathematics but they can begin to study the simple laws of the binary operation of addition. If they continue to learn - what "limit" is there? Many are so disappointed with the discipline of simple mathematics they will give up every consideration of partial differential equations.

It is the child that is always willing to learn. It is the fool that having grasped Algebra thinks themselves smart and therefore above learning.

The first lesson of divine nature is to learn to learn. Is it not sad that so many believe in a G-d that is smart and has no reason to learn?

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

God is simple and yet a mystery. Surely we do tend towards understandings that favor ourselves. The fault is not with the two truths (God is simple and yet unfathomable), but with our own selfish interpretations. We are told in the Old Testament, the New Testament, and in the BoM (I assume) that whoever seeks God with sincerity will find Him. I seek him in simplicity, and yet awe-struck recognition of his superiority.

[norah63]

We serve an all knowing God. This is a comfort in any storm of misunderstanding.

What do you think God needs to learn? I do not comprehend that thought. He is alpha and omega to me.

If there is such a thing as a latter-day saint Pentecostal, that is what I can relate to.

The gifts of the Spirit that the early church had are still here. It is our wills that hinder.

Paul says that Christ can free us from that. I am persuaded, that we do not know, how much

in need we are of these gifts that we are shying away from.

Will it take persecution for the body to learn a hard lesson, I hope not.

[Traveler]

We serve an all knowing God. This is a comfort in any storm of misunderstanding.

What do you think God needs to learn? I do not comprehend that thought. He is alpha and omega to me.

If there is such a thing as a latter-day saint Pentecostal, that is what I can relate to.

The gifts of the Spirit that the early church had are still here. It is our wills that hinder.

Paul says that Christ can free us from that. I am persuaded, that we do not know, how much

in need we are of these gifts that we are shying away from.

Will it take persecution for the body to learn a hard lesson, I hope not.

Do not the scriptures tell us that though Jesus was the son of G-d yet learned he obedience? One definition of intelligence is the "ability" and propensity to learn. Are we to believe G-d is therefore not intelligent?

If there is nothing divine in learning - why does G-d expect us to learn? I believe Jesus is the example of G-d and in his example Jesus learned. We can say G-d has learned all things associated with creation - as in alpha and omega.

I have no problem that there are things that G-d "thinks" about and studies. After all - He is the living G-d. Living implies thought.

The Traveler

[X33ad]

Acts 4:30

Ask for saints intersesion in heaven

Acts 4:32

Jesus founded the roman catholic church and we should be one

Acts 4:37

We need to follow the decendants of the apostles today's Catholic bishops and pope

Acts 5:3, 5:8, 5:9

Peter the first pope speaks with authority

Those where just a couple notes in my

Bible