returned

[kevieb]

In looking for help for abuse, i found this website--and discovered I had joined it several years ago!!!

I have been looking for help for some time and have been surprised at how difficult it is to get church leaders to take me seriously when I tell them that I need help.

I'm not sure if this is the right board for me to be on, I couldn't find any specific forums dealing with abuse in the church.

I desperately do not want to lose my testimony---i married foolishly at barely 19--out of the church--and was eventually given the choise to either quit going to church --or leave. I took my little boy and a basket of clothes and left--not knowing I was pregnant.

I married again 3 years later to a man who had also been married to a non-member. He had been inactive for over 13 years, but wanted to get active, he also had custody of his children---i knew both these things before I met him.

He told me all the things he did wrong in his marriage--and he also told me the things he thought it took to make a good marriage. He told me he would not marry me until he could take me to the temple.

Just under 5 months after we met---we were sealed in the Salt Lake Temple. He treated me like a queen the whole time we were dating and for about the first 6 months of our marriage---and then he decided it was just too hard to keep up that much commitment.

My children were adopted by him--and both his children and my children were sealed to us about 1 1/2 years after we were married. We have had 7 more children together.

This December we celebrated our 25th anniversary with him having surgery!!

He has been a yeller from about 6 months into our marriage. He is a little rough around the edges. I don't like being yelled at, but when i am not depressed and feeling well, I can deal with his "roughness around the edges" --but I still don't like being yelled at. When I am at my best, i can let things roll off my back and get over them pretty easy-----but I have been depressed off and on for so many years of our marriage.

I know I have less depression when he is treating me better---I think I also deal with my health problems better when he treats me better---the problem is that he is so tired of me being depressed and having health problems---that he treats me lousy because of it----it has become a pretty vicious cycle.

I know what he is capable of because I have seen him at his best. I just don't understand why the church speaks out so strongly about spousal abuse of all kinds---and yet my local leaders took forever to isten to me---it took several of my children and my mother calling the stake president to get any help, the stake pres had no idea there were any problems--- the bishop had never even talked to the stake president about our issues---but he was going to pull my husbands temple recommend----seems like he would have reached out for some help from a higher leader before wanting to pull my husband's recommend.

Our bishop is a kind man---but I think he does not have the experience or knowledge to deal with the problems my husband has been having.

Right now, my husband is semi-active and dealing with depression and anxiety, which he will not get help for. He is very negative about counseling--he said it always felt like I was tattling on him. However, he was willing to go to a counselor with our newest bishop---but we were only allowed 3 visits with the counselor, then sent home with a book and told to read it together---like that was going to happen!!---there was no follow up.

The stake president told me that it was handled poorly--he also told me that we have not had good counselors provided to us locally by the church---I was already aware of that from experience.

The stake pres visited with hubby and I each twice--then about twice more with my hubby over a number of months time---then just quit. I sent him an email once trying to touch base--but he never replied. I never could get the executive secretary to return my calls to make an appt. with the stake pres.

Finally, one of my sons went to the stake pres's place of business and told him he wasn't doing his job---I have a feeling he probably yelled at him---I think he was tired of seeing me cry listening to me be so unhappy--and complain about not being able to get any help.

The stake pres called us in again and said he would meet with us every fast sunday--so far he has followed through---but I feel like we are making very little progress.

He said an interesting thing to me when I said I wanted help. He asked me what I wanted him to do because he was "just a carpenter"----I replied that "so was Christ."

Another time he asked me, "who do you want help from, your farmer bishop or your carpenter stake president?"

I had early told him that he was entitled to inspiration to know how to help us---I read that from one of the General Authorities--I also read that I had a right to ask for help---but I kept feeling like maybe I was doing something wrong.

Kind of long, I know, but I am feeling so desperate to have peace in my marriage and my life again---I would like to have my husband just talk to me without shutting me off or yelling at me. I want to hang on to my testimony and believe that the things the church leaders have said about the church giving help for abuse are true.---Sometimes I think that I am in a really weird stake that is kind of a good old boys club---I lived in the other stake in this town for 18 years, we have been in this stake for 5 years---I felt like I had changed religions when we changed stakes----and I moved into the house I grew up in as a teenager and I am back in the ward I grew up in.

I always thought the church was something you could count on to be the same where ever you went---i kinow the basic gospel is--but sometimes there are things that are so troubling to a person, that they overwhelm you to the point that the gospel gets buried under everything else going on.

can anyone help me in any way?

[Vort]

In your previous post last July, someone told you to leave your husband. I am very glad you did not take her advice. I don't know what your husband's demons are, and I have no special insight or much wisdom to offer you. But keep holding on. Might be worth talking to your area authority seventy, just to see what he has to say. You might want to request a blessing from your stake patriarch, as well.

[skippy740]

Ecclesiastical leaders are not trained marriage counselors. Our leaders are there to help guide and direct, but they are not therapists.

Seek therapy and counseling from trained, licensed practitioners.

Work with your leaders to discuss your overall progress and spiritual growth.

[classylady]

If your husband is unwilling to change, what can your church leaders do? They can't force your husband to be a "good" man. They can encourage him, and hopefully your husband will listen and become the man he ought to be. Neither can your church leaders force your husband to go to counseling. Again, they can encourage him to go. In the end, only your husband is the one who can change himself. All the God-given inspiration from your church leaders won't help, if your husband is unwilling to follow the counsel that is given. I don't know what will finally get him to understand that some of his behavior is unacceptable. Jail time? If he is physically abusive, then call the police.

I'm sorry you are having to go through this. Sending hugs your way.

Edit: The only reason I suggested calling the police is because in your earlier post in July you mentioned he threw an object directly at your face.

Edited December 29, 2012 by classylady

[Drpepper]

Ecclesiastical leaders are not trained marriage counselors. Our leaders are there to help guide and direct, but they are not therapists.

Seek therapy and counseling from trained, licensed practitioners.

Work with your leaders to discuss your overall progress and spiritual growth.

Amen, Im sorry to hear what you are going through but it seems that you both need professional advice from trained counsellors.

I often hear on these sites how Bishops and Stake Presidents cop the brunt of not being able to give appropriate advice on series personal problems such as abuse, marital issues, depression, disorders, addictions, etc...

I do think however the church could be doing alot more in certain geographical areas to assist in providing social welfare services.

Your son was probably a little out of line to tell the Stake President he is not doing his job.

This man has to look over a whole stake and carry a full time job to support his own family.

Seriously who would want to be a Bishop or Stake President.... Every time i hear a new one called i feel sorry for his wife and children.

[ACommonMan]

That is a tough situation. Some Bishops are really good and others struggle with their own demons.

As I think about what you've shared, the main thought which came to my mind was some recent advice about taking care of yourself first and allowing your spouse to catch up. Perhaps you should consider getting the bishop to sponsor counselling for just you. Try to work on proper coping mechanisms so that the yelling doesn't affect you the way it has been. I don't have any suggestions for your specific circumstances, but it would seem to me that over the years there has built up an unintended relationship where your self esteem allows him to think it's not bad enough to really need to be changed. While his yelling is in no way your fault, there are probably things you can do to reinforce that his actions have consequences.

Edited December 28, 2012 by ACommonMan

[BrendaM]

It seems to me that perhaps you are not taking counsel from any of your priesthood leaders? I could be wrong...but trying to put a 25 year marriage back in order takes time. And effort.

Because our church leaders are most often times not trained marriage counselors, perhaps that is who you need to see.

Reading (scriptures & books on counselling/depression), saying prayers (by yourself and as a couple) will certainly help you on your way.

If your husband is not willing to try, then you are on your own. Only you, can decide to fix you. I would probably see my medical doctor first off to see if a combination of medicine and psychiatric counselling is necessary.

My mom always said "God helps those that help themselves".

Your church leaders are not perfect. Most of them are not trained medical doctors or therapists. Again, I would suggets seeing your doctor.

[Guest]

kevieb... we cannot control what other people do. And that includes our spouses. We can only control how we react to it.

A vicious cycle is like a choreographed dance. You step this way, he steps that way, over and over everytime. After 25 years - these dance steps become so ingrained it becomes instinctual habit. If you want to change the dance, one of you will have to initiate it by making a new dance step. The other will have to figure out what the next step is going to be and a new dance starts to emerge. And, because you can't control your husband, you can only control yourself, you get to be the one to create the new dance step. So that, when he steps this way, you can make a conscious effort not to step that way like you always do. You have to make a conscious effort to change your step.

Now, you might be trying to get help from the bishop/stake president to find a new dance step. And this may be why you are getting to be disappointed. That is because - you (or a licensed therapist) are the only one who knows your dance well enough to know what a new dance step will need to be. The bishop/stake president can only give you what God's principles are, what you need for your own spirituality, and what your marriage covenants are. Then it is up to you to apply these principles.

Now, you might think what I'm saying is mumbo-jumbo, so I'll get a little more specific. Here's the dance step from what you told me - 1.) you do something, 2.) then your husband yells, 3.) and you lick your wounds, 4.) and he walks off in a huff. It's a cha-cha. Okay. Change it. You do something, your husband yells, then, instead of licking your wounds - tell your husband something you like about him. I know - it's hard to come up with something nice to say about your husband when he just yelled at you. But this changes the dance - this reminds you of something nice your husband did so that it replaces the something awful that he just did so you won't get depressed about it. Also, saying something nice to your husband might trigger him to change his next step... it might stop him from walking off in a huff and instead his next dance step becomes an apology for yelling (yes, yes, I'm shooting for the best case scenario here) so you get a new dance. You do this enough times over and over and pretty soon, your old habitual dance disappears entirely to be replaced by a better dance.

See if that works.

[kevieb]

I am very aware that our leaders are not trained counselors---and i know that my husband needs to be the one to make the choice to change himself. BUT, I have read article after article written by church authorities that tell me I have the right to ask for help----I can't understand why it took 5 years before i could get anyone to take me seriously that i needed help.

This is a quote from the First Presidency:

"Members of the Church continue to place telephone calls and write letters to Church headquarters about doctrinal issues and personal matters. By reason of their callings, local leaders are entitled to the spirit of discernment and inspiration to enable them to counsel members within their jurisdiction.

Accordingly, correspondence from members will be referred back to their local leaders for handling. Stake presidents who have need for further clarification about doctrinal or procedural issues may write to the First Presidency in behalf of their members.

It is our desire that all members will feel they have the support and guidance they need: however, all things should be done in wisdom and order. We believe that both members and local leaders will be blessed as they pray and counsel together in an effort to resolve matters of concern to them."

This was signed by the First Presidency.

Since I believe that the church is true--I believed that this letter from the first presidency said that My leaders are entitled to the spirit of discernment and inspiration to enable them to know how to counsel my husband and I-----even if that includes counseling my husband that he needs to deal with the issues that he has acknowledged he has--depression, anxiety, and anger issues.

We have always been full tithe payers, a former stake president told me that it meant I had the right to ask the church for help---since our insurance does not cover marriage counseling, I feel like we should be entitled to ask for help with regular counseling----with a counselor that has a good reputation for working with people---not just the ones the church sends who more often than not have not been good counselors. our stake president is aware that we have not been provided good counselors-----I'm guessing that could be part of the reason that my husband doesn't want to go. But, I also believe that if the stake president told my husband he wanted him to give counseling a try one more time, and he called the First Presidency for help with procedural issues on finding a good counselor---plus used the inspiration he is entitled to----I honestly think my husband might be willing to try counseling one more time.

There is an article in an old Ensign called "The Invisible Heartbreaker" It talks about the various forms of abuse in marriage, it also talks about how some women who are emotionally and verbally abused sometimes will eventually retreat into illness or depression---sometimes they will start to fight back. Either the same article, or another one---wish I could remember for sure, said that sometimes, if verbal abuse is not gotten under control, it will eventually lead to physical abuse. This is what eventually happened to us during the time I could not get anyone to help me---fortunately, the physical part was mild and short lived and he was so scared that he could get arrested, that it has not been an issue again. He has mostly stopped swearing at me and hasn't thrown anything in a long time.

I sometimes wonder if part of my health issues and my ongoing depression have somewhat to do with my husbands ongoing verbal abuse----and the fact that I am in a very lonely marriage.

I have been diagnosed with several issues that I am working on---part of what my husband seems to resent about me is that I am not well---and we have had so many medical problems in our entire family---he hates to hear me talk about it---and I DO need to try and talk about it less. I just don't have anything else going on in my life---I've suggested to him that maybe if we went out and did some different things, maybe I would have something else to talk about. I think he also forgets that alot of the medical problems have been his.

I have seen my husband make efforts to change--he just seems to have trouble maintaining it---that is where I feel the regular visits with a church leader that he trusts could really help us----since he KNOWS how to treat me good, because he HAS treated me good at times, I think that the regular visits would help him to be accountable for himself. I have seen him come back from a visit with the stake pres before and want to talk about a way to improve something in our relationship.

VORT---thank you for your comment about being glad that I did not leave my husband as someone had suggested. I still believe in him, and I know what he is capable of---i just don't know why he chooses not to do it. I kind of figure if I want to say he is a jerk, that is my business---but I don't want anyone else to say he is a jerk and that I should leave him.

I have just been so disappointed that it took so long to get anyone to pay attention---and my son may have been out of line to tell the stake pres that he wasn't doing his job---but that is what it took to get him to finally follow through and start visiting with us once a month.

The stake Pres had visited with us a couple of times last year---but that was only after my mother called him, my daughter and son-in-law called, my high school daughter sent him a text and my oldest, inactive son called him and said 'how soon can you see me?"---My son showed up at his office at 10 pm. After my family bombarded him and told him how much I needed help, he visited with us a few times---and then seemed to forget about us.

I had tried to make an appt. with him---but I could never get the executive secretary to return my call---I don't know why I didn't matter enough to get a reply---but I'm greatful that my children were able to get through to him.

I have known my stake president since I was 9 years old and we were in the same ward--he went to school with my older sisters---it's not like I was a newly transplanted member that he had never heard of---but it shouldn't matter either way.

Sorry this was so long--I need to learn to condense my thoughts.

[kevieb]

I am very aware that our leaders are not trained counselors---and i know that my husband needs to be the one to make the choice to change himself. BUT, I have read article after article written by church authorities that tell me I have the right to ask for help----I can't understand why it took 5 years before i could get anyone to take me seriously that i needed help.

This is a quote from the First Presidency:

"Members of the Church continue to place telephone calls and write letters to Church headquarters about doctrinal issues and personal matters. By reason of their callings, local leaders are entitled to the spirit of discernment and inspiration to enable them to counsel members within their jurisdiction.

Accordingly, correspondence from members will be referred back to their local leaders for handling. Stake presidents who have need for further clarification about doctrinal or procedural issues may write to the First Presidency in behalf of their members.

It is our desire that all members will feel they have the support and guidance they need: however, all things should be done in wisdom and order. We believe that both members and local leaders will be blessed as they pray and counsel together in an effort to resolve matters of concern to them."

This was signed by the First Presidency.

Since I believe that the church is true--I believed that this letter from the first presidency said that My leaders are entitled to the spirit of discernment and inspiration to enable them to know how to counsel my husband and I-----even if that includes counseling my husband that he needs to deal with the issues that he has acknowledged he has--depression, anxiety, and anger issues.

We have always been full tithe payers, a former stake president told me that it meant I had the right to ask the church for help---since our insurance does not cover marriage counseling, I feel like we should be entitled to ask for help with regular counseling----with a counselor that has a good reputation for working with people---not just the ones the church sends who more often than not have not been good counselors. our stake president is aware that we have not been provided good counselors-----I'm guessing that could be part of the reason that my husband doesn't want to go. But, I also believe that if the stake president told my husband he wanted him to give counseling a try one more time, and he called the First Presidency for help with procedural issues on finding a good counselor---plus used the inspiration he is entitled to----I honestly think my husband might be willing to try counseling one more time.

There is an article in an old Ensign called "The Invisible Heartbreaker" It talks about the various forms of abuse in marriage, it also talks about how some women who are emotionally and verbally abused sometimes will eventually retreat into illness or depression---sometimes they will start to fight back. Either the same article, or another one---wish I could remember for sure, said that sometimes, if verbal abuse is not gotten under control, it will eventually lead to physical abuse. This is what eventually happened to us during the time I could not get anyone to help me---fortunately, the physical part was mild and short lived and he was so scared that he could get arrested, that it has not been an issue again. He has mostly stopped swearing at me and hasn't thrown anything in a long time.

I sometimes wonder if part of my health issues and my ongoing depression have somewhat to do with my husbands ongoing verbal abuse----and the fact that I am in a very lonely marriage.

I have been diagnosed with several issues that I am working on---part of what my husband seems to resent about me is that I am not well---and we have had so many medical problems in our entire family---he hates to hear me talk about it---and I DO need to try and talk about it less. I just don't have anything else going on in my life---I've suggested to him that maybe if we went out and did some different things, maybe I would have something else to talk about. I think he also forgets that alot of the medical problems have been his.

I have seen my husband make efforts to change--he just seems to have trouble maintaining it---that is where I feel the regular visits with a church leader that he trusts could really help us----since he KNOWS how to treat me good, because he HAS treated me good at times, I think that the regular visits would help him to be accountable for himself. I have seen him come back from a visit with the stake pres before and want to talk about a way to improve something in our relationship.

VORT---thank you for your comment about being glad that I did not leave my husband as someone had suggested. I still believe in him, and I know what he is capable of---i just don't know why he chooses not to do it. I kind of figure if I want to say he is a jerk, that is my business---but I don't want anyone else to say he is a jerk and that I should leave him.

I have just been so disappointed that it took so long to get anyone to pay attention---and my son may have been out of line to tell the stake pres that he wasn't doing his job---but that is what it took to get him to finally follow through and start visiting with us once a month.

The stake Pres had visited with us a couple of times last year---but that was only after my mother called him, my daughter and son-in-law called, my high school daughter sent him a text and my oldest, inactive son called him and said 'how soon can you see me?"---My son showed up at his office at 10 pm. After my family bombarded him and told him how much I needed help, he visited with us a few times---and then seemed to forget about us.

I had tried to make an appt. with him---but I could never get the executive secretary to return my call---I don't know why I didn't matter enough to get a reply---but I'm greatful that my children were able to get through to him.

I have known my stake president since I was 9 years old and we were in the same ward--he went to school with my older sisters---it's not like I was a newly transplanted member that he had never heard of---but it shouldn't matter either way.

Sorry this was so long--I need to learn to condense my thoughts.

[kevieb]

VORT--thank you also for the suggestion about contacting the area seventy. I was told that there WAS help if I could not get it locally--but it was awfully hard to get the information on who to contact--I asked my Bishop a couple of times--but he said he didn't know. I finally picked one of the many phone numbers on the internet under Church Headquarters and just called and asked what I was supposed to do when I could not get help locally. A lady gave me the name and the address of the person in the Presidency of the Quorum of the seventy that I was to write to.

I have written several letters--and torn every one up.

We live in a fairly small town in southern Idaho. I grew up when there was only one stake. After I married, there were two stakes---and we lived for 18 years in the "other" stake. Just over 5 years ago, we moved to this stake, which was the "richer side of town" when there was only one stake. The "other" stake was much warmer and seemed more concerned---the stake president in that stake, now, used to be our bishop. He was offering to help me when i couldn't get help from my own leaders--he knew my husband and my husband is very comfortable with him. I kind of feel like this stake has a good old boys club who has always done things a certain way--and see no reason to change.

They are good, religious men---but I don't feel the warmth and concern from them that I felt before---I'm even living in the ward I grew up in, believe it or not!!! It just doesn't seem that there should be such a difference between two stakes in such a small town.

[kevieb]

VORT--thank you also for the suggestion about contacting the area seventy. I was told that there WAS help if I could not get it locally--but it was awfully hard to get the information on who to contact--I asked my Bishop a couple of times--but he said he didn't know. I finally picked one of the many phone numbers on the internet under Church Headquarters and just called and asked what I was supposed to do when I could not get help locally. A lady gave me the name and the address of the person in the Presidency of the Quorum of the seventy that I was to write to.

I have written several letters--and torn every one up.

We live in a fairly small town in southern Idaho. I grew up when there was only one stake. After I married, there were two stakes---and we lived for 18 years in the "other" stake. Just over 5 years ago, we moved to this stake, which was the "richer side of town" when there was only one stake. The "other" stake was much warmer and seemed more concerned---the stake president in that stake, now, used to be our bishop. He was offering to help me when i couldn't get help from my own leaders--he knew my husband and my husband is very comfortable with him. I kind of feel like this stake has a good old boys club who has always done things a certain way--and see no reason to change.

They are good, religious men---but I don't feel the warmth and concern from them that I felt before---I'm even living in the ward I grew up in, believe it or not!!! It just doesn't seem that there should be such a difference between two stakes in such a small town.

[skippy740]

We have always been full tithe payers, a former stake president told me that it meant I had the right to ask the church for help---since our insurance does not cover marriage counseling, I feel like we should be entitled to ask for help with regular counseling----with a counselor that has a good reputation for working with people---not just the ones the church sends who more often than not have not been good counselors.

To extend that line of thinking, you'll probably end up blaming the church if your marriage ends in divorce because "we're full tithe payors and we feel entitled to ____".

The church makes various resources available... but no one that I know of guarantees any quality or results.

Only you and your husband can make things happen... if you both want them to happen.

our stake president is aware that we have not been provided good counselors-----I'm guessing that could be part of the reason that my husband doesn't want to go.

But, I also believe that if:

- the stake president told my husband he wanted him to give counseling a try one more time,

- and he called the First Presidency for help with procedural issues on finding a good counselor---

- plus used the inspiration he is entitled to----I honestly think my husband might be willing to try counseling one more time.

That's putting your faith in the arm of flesh and waiting for all the stars and planets to line up in a row.

I'd find and discover a new strategy that waiting for that one to happen.

Yes, I'm being rather bold & kinda curt. But if you don't see where your thoughts would result, you'll become a victim of your own thinking... and blaming everyone else around you.

You need new ideas, not new people to blame.

[Guest Pinkfon]

Kevieb,

You are correct in everything you have asserted. The local leadership SHOULD be helping you more readily than they appear to be. Unfortunately, the leadership is human and has their own weaknesses. Even in a small Idaho town, there should be more help available than you have been led to believe, particularly if there are two stakes.

I am that surprised you've experienced a measurable difference between the two stakes in town. I had the occasion to live in a really bad ward in Southern Utah. After being given permission by the Stake President to test some other wards to possibly attend, one we felt quite comfortable in was one formed by splitting our home ward before we moved in. I thought of the movie "Twins", where child got all the best qualities and the other got only the less desirable ones.

I share that story because you should know that, while unfortunate, it's not particularly uncommon. Normally, going to the Stake is enough to nudge a hard-nosed Bishop back on track. Go ahead and send the letter to the Area Seventy. The only thing which should stop you is the answer to one question which only you are able to answer. Are you local leaders not receiving revelation for you, or are you just not happy with the revelations they've shared? If it's the latter, then do what you can to start taking it to heart. Otherwise, keep climbing that patriarchal ladder. You will be pleasantly surprised how good it will feel when someone truly in tune with The Spirit talks with you.

[ACommonMan]

Kevieb,

You are correct in everything you have asserted. The local leadership SHOULD be helping you more readily than they appear to be. Unfortunately, the leadership is human and has their own weaknesses. Even in a small Idaho town, there should be more help available than you have been led to believe, particularly if there are two stakes.

I am not that surprised you've experienced a measurable difference between the two stakes in town. I had the occasion to live in a really bad ward in Southern Utah. After being given permission by the Stake President to test some other wards to possibly attend, one we felt quite comfortable in was one formed by splitting our home ward before we moved in. I thought of the movie "Twins", where child got all the best qualities and the other got only the less desirable ones.

I share that story because you should know that, while unfortunate, it's not particularly uncommon. Normally, going to the Stake is enough to nudge a hard-nosed Bishop back on track. Go ahead and send the letter to the Area Seventy. The only thing which should stop you is the answer to one question which only you are able to answer. Are you local leaders not receiving revelation for you, or are you just not happy with the revelations they've shared? If it's the latter, then do what you can to start taking it to heart. Otherwise, keep climbing that patriarchal ladder. You will be pleasantly surprised how good it will feel when someone truly in tune with The Spirit talks with you.

[kevieb]

skippy---you sound like an extremely insensitive person--and you say the kind of things that would drive a wounded heart away from the church. You know very little about me, nor very little about what our family has dealt with that has brought us to this point. It's pretty hard to put on paper what is really in my heart and mind.

How dare you assume that i am a person that feels "entitled"---My bishop was the one who told me that I had the right to ask the church for help if I was a full tithe payer---i had always thought being a full tithe payer meant that we would be able to get by and take care of ourselves---and we have done without a lot of things that other people have because we had a lot of children, and I chose to be a stay-at-home mom so i could be available for my children. My husband would probably tell you I spend less money than anyone he knows.

I have read all the articles i could find about abuse and I have chosen to believe the prophets and apostles when they say that there is help available and that our local leaders are entitled to inspiration to know how to counsel us---maybe you have never had to deal with this type of thing--or maybe you have never read how strongly the church speaks out about abuse.

Since i could easily find the articles and since i choose to believe that the church is true, I expect that my leaders would have access to the same information. I'm not blaming someone else for our problems--but i do blame them for ignoring me for 5 years when i repeatedly asked for help.

I truly hope that i never say anything as unkind and insensitive to anyone as you have said to me!!!!

[kevieb]

acommonman--thank you for understanding what I have been trying to say----i am not a person who feels 'entitled" -----I have just read what the apostles and prophets have said--and they say that there is help available--but for some reason, I haven't been able to find it in my ward or stake------I almost feel desperate to move back to my old ward and stake--especially since the stake president in the other stake, who was our old bishop, OFFERED to help me when I couldn't get anyone's attention after 5 years in this stake.

If I could figure out how to sell my house I would move in a heartbeat.

[skippy740]

skippy---you sound like an extremely insensitive person--and you say the kind of things that would drive a wounded heart away from the church. You know very little about me, nor very little about what our family has dealt with that has brought us to this point. It's pretty hard to put on paper what is really in my heart and mind.

How dare you assume that i am a person that feels "entitled"---My bishop was the one who told me that I had the right to ask the church for help if I was a full tithe payer---i had always thought being a full tithe payer meant that we would be able to get by and take care of ourselves---and we have done without a lot of things that other people have because we had a lot of children, and I chose to be a stay-at-home mom so i could be available for my children. My husband would probably tell you I spend less money than anyone he knows.

I have read all the articles i could find about abuse and I have chosen to believe the prophets and apostles when they say that there is help available and that our local leaders are entitled to inspiration to know how to counsel us---maybe you have never had to deal with this type of thing--or maybe you have never read how strongly the church speaks out about abuse.

Since i could easily find the articles and since i choose to believe that the church is true, I expect that my leaders would have access to the same information. I'm not blaming someone else for our problems--but i do blame them for ignoring me for 5 years when i repeatedly asked for help.

I truly hope that i never say anything as unkind and insensitive to anyone as you have said to me!!!!

This is a discussion forum. All I have to go on are what you type in your posts.

A feeling of entitlement has NOTHING to do with how one spends their financial resources. In fact, most people that have the entitlement mentality are more along the lines of how other people spend THEIR earned resources on them. But I digress...

I'm the type of person that gets down to the roots of someone's posts and exposes their own truths to themselves. Often times, that hurts. I wish others could point out the truths of my own life to me... but I don't post much about my own life.

I have a very realistic expectation of what I expect the Church to "provide". We have very well intentioned human beings who help the Church to function... but that doesn't mean they are skilled.

The way you are writing your posts, you are waiting for some kind of 'intervention'. Based on how you are writing about your priesthood leaders, it looks like you won't be getting it anytime soon... well, not without your husband changing, a letter from the First Presidency and whatever else you wrote that you want to have happen.

I stand by what I wrote.

If you want some resources on abuse... I'd start here, with a book that I found on the topic: http://www.lds.net/forums/book-club/50563-emotionally-abusive-relationship-beverly-engel.html

The Church does many things well... but specialized counseling from lay Church leaders are not one of them.

If that means that to understand the truth of your situation that you have to get some bold and blunt responses from some anonymous guy here on the internet.... well, that's the risk we all take when we ask for advice. Sometimes we do get what we ask for.

For things to change, you have to change.

Now, I'm not telling you to stay in an abusive situation. I'm saying that if you want to get a different result, you have to change your thinking.

If working with your local Church leaders isn't working... what will?

If getting your husband to want to change on his own isn't working... what will?

If it must require a letter from the First Presidency, your husband to be inspired by his Stake President and to find an excellent counselor found and funded by the Church... what else could you do instead?

You are finding that human beings are imperfect (myself included because I'm being rather curt and blunt in my post).

No one is going to care about your situation more than you and the Lord.

So... what are you going to do about it?

When you want a thing bad enough to go out and fight for it,

To work day and night for it,

To give up your peace and your sleep and your time for it;

If only the desire of it makes your aim strong enough never to tire of it;

If life seems all empty and useless without it,

And all that you dream and you scheme is about it;

If gladly you'll sweat for it, fret for it, plan for it,

Pray with all your strength for it;

If you'll simply go after the thing that you want with all your capacity,

Strength and sagacity; faith, hope, and confidence, stern pertinacity;

If neither poverty nor cold nor famish nor gaunt

Nor sickness or pain to body or brain can turn you away

From the aim that you want;

If dogged and grim, you besiege and beset it,

you'll get it!

Author Unknown

Edited December 30, 2012 by skippy740

[Drpepper]

double post

Edited December 31, 2012 by Drpepper

[Drpepper]

I have read all the articles i could find about abuse and I have chosen to believe the prophets and apostles when they say that there is help available and that our local leaders are entitled to inspiration to know how to counsel us-

We recently considered a matter in our ward regarding one of our members situation. We all felt that while the Bishop is entitled to receive inspiration. The issue would be far better delt with from someone with professional training in that particular area.

Hense the inspiration was a recommendation for that person to see a professional in that particular field.

I feel sometime we lay to much on Bishops in the form of professional services. I wouldn't ask a Bishop for inspiration on how to perform a cancer removing operation, yet many people feel that Bishops can easily remove cancer from a relationship/marital/spouse issue.

I spoke to a Bishop recently who is studying counselling seperate to his job as an electrician and asked him why. he said " i seem to do so much counselling as a Bishop I figured it would be good to have some training in it".

As i said in a previous post i feel the church has really lagged in some areas in having professional services available to their members.

Because of this some members have had to rely on in experienced Bishops or external counselling services that don't uphold church standards.

It seems you and your husband had 3 sessions with a counsellor and then were sent home with a book.

Thats just not going to cut it.

I would seek more sessions with a trained counsellor until you see the problem improving dramatically with your husband.

Combining that with prayer, scripture study and actively participating in church activities will help.

Just taking your husbands temple recommend off him will certainly serve the purpose of him not attending the temple unworthily but isn't really proactive in helping him resolve his real issues. It probably just lets him know something he deep inside already knows.

Abuse is just as bad as cancer perhaps worse in some cases.

There is an element that the reason he treats you the way he does is because you give him permission but your counsellor should guide you through that.

You may want to consider asking your Bishop to help financially if the church is not providing Family Services in your area. I would certainly ask the question.

Finally it seems from your post that the whole experience has a made you a little negative towards your local leaders. You might have to find away to let that go and concentrate on the real issue, the fact that your husband is abusing you.

oh and the celebrating 25yrs of marriage with a surgery, luv it, very romantic...

Edited December 31, 2012 by Drpepper

[ACommonMan]

My bishop was the one who told me that I had the right to ask the church for help if I was a full tithe payer

As a point of fact, one does not need to be a full tithe payer, or even a member of the church, to receive financial support from the Bishop. He is charged with the welfare of every household within his ward boundries. Help will almost always come with a request to obey the law of tithing, but that has more to do with needing more than just financial benefits by the time one has reached the point of needing church support.

[pam]

I have to agree with ACommonMan. There is no requirement to be a full tithe payer to receive assistance.

[Drpepper]

As a point of fact, one does not need to be a full tithe payer, or even a member of the church, to receive financial support from the Bishop. He is charged with the welfare of every household within his ward boundries. Help will almost always come with a request to obey the law of tithing, but that has more to do with needing more than just financial benefits by the time one has reached the point of needing church support.

true, that probably came out wrong, thanks for picking that up:)

[kevieb]

somehow I haven't been able to make myself very clear, I guess. I need to clarify that all 25 years of my marriage have not been bad--there have been some very good times during those 25 years. My husband has been, and probably always will be, a little rough around the edges---i can live with that. (I can live with it a lot better when I am not fighting depression)

I never said ANYTHING about wanting a letter from the First Presidency--I don't know where that idea came from. I quoted a letter that the first presidency sent out to all bishoprics to read to their wards letting them know they do not want phone calls or letters written to them because our local leaders, by nature of their calling, are entitled to inspiration to know how to counsel us. I choose to believe the prophets and apostles--so i assumed that if i asked for help, I would be given help---either from my leaders or help with counseling since our insurance does not cover it and we cannot afford it.

My husband has often said he would not go to counseling--but he has also gone to counseling with me more than once when it was available---DRPepper--you said exactly how i feel--3 sessions and being sent home with a book just doesn't cut it---even my stake president, when I told him about it, said it had not been handled right.

My frustration has been that I kept asking for help-----and it was falling on deaf ears. The church speaks out very strongly about abuse and says that the church has resources available. i just cannot understand why it took 5 years to get anyone to listen to me. i also can't understand why ME asking for help wasn't enough---why did it take several of my children contacting the stake president to get him to give us any help?

We have been meeting with the stake president monthly now for several months. We each talk to him separately, but on the same day. He had asked me early on what I wanted from him since he was just a carpenter--and another time he asked me who i wanted help from--my farmer bishop or my carpenter stake president. I called him on the carpenter thing and reminded him that he was entitled to inspiration to know how to help me---i really didn't know what kind of help we needed. The last time i talked with him, he told me that he had received some inspiration for me----it had to do with what my life has been like---his understanding of my life was right on target---and he had something he wanted me to do---and i have been working on it. He also gives my husband things to work on, although i don't know what they are. Being fairly new as our stake president, i assume he is somewhat inexperienced---the only way we learn experience is by trying to help and seeking inspiration---maybe me reminding him that he was entitled to inspiration helped him to remember to seek it.

I do not have a feeling of entitlement towards the church---but i do believe that if the apostles and prophets say there is help that they mean it----I just don't understand why help has not been available or at least why it has taken 5 years to get some help. After talking a little more about my stake president----I am suddenly realizing that I am receiving some help---probably my disappointment over it taking so long has made me a little (a lot?) jaded.

It has been difficult to move from a stake and ward where help was easily found and readily given to a stake where they don't seem to know how to help--and i do think this stake has a problem---I went for help years ago with an abusive step-father--and never got help---fortunately I married shortly after and moved---but when i came back 20 years later---the stake still does not seem to know how to deal with abuse issues very well.

The tithe paying thing came about because of some misconceptions from what i learned growing up. i always thought that if you payed your tithing that it meant you would be able to get by----(assuming you are not putting yourself into a lot of unnecessary debt) We had had so many medical problems and had more bills than we could pay. i had questioned my bishop as to why we couldn't get by when we were paying a full tithe. He told me that it did not mean what i thought, but that it meant that I had the right to ask the church for help. It had nothing to do with my present circumstance when i was told that information.

I am glad to know that being a full tithe payer is not a requirement to receive assistance---I'm sure there are people who struggle with paying it that still need help.

My husband lost his job shortly after we bought our house in this new stake---our first bishop had no problem giving us assistance with food until we got back on our feet--but then my husband was injured on the job and had to have surgery. He could not work for 7 months while his knee healed, because of the nature of the work he does. He did get workman's comp--but it was not enough to cover our bills and our food-----He felt like he pretty much got the third degree from our present bishop before he was willing to give us any help with food. I guarantee you, I absolutely HATE having to get help from the bishops storehouse---we wouldn't ask if we didn't need it. It has always humiliated me to have to go there.

My husband took out his ACL twice in the past and could not work for a number of months---the first time i had to go to the bishop's storehouse---i left in tears---I was already humiliated and I had an onery old lady helping me.

Unless you have ever really been struggling, you have no idea how difficult and humiliating it is to have to ask for help for ANYTHING, be it food, counseling or bills. It hurts to have someone assume I feel entitled.

i am extremely grateful to the people on this thread who are sensitive to the fact that I am hurting emotionally and spiritually and choose to speak kind words to me rather than assume things because I have a hard time explaining my circumstances.

I hope when i am on better footing that I will be able to reach out to someone else in need the same way you have reached out to me with kindness and understanding.

I think this ended up really long--but it helped me work out a few things in my own mind.

[Drpepper]

Firstly I don't think anyone is trying to judge you here. Just provide a little bit of support and advice from the very limited information you have posted. ( that's my disclaimer for what I'm about to say) :)

I would like to clarify I few of your posts. your first post started with " I need help for abuse" ( regarding your husband) your third post states the following.

My husband has been, and probably always will be, a little rough around the edges---i can live with that.

I need you to clarify with yourself whether your husband is abusive or a little rough around the edges.

I would consider myself a little rough around the edges but I'm certainly not abusive.

Here is the statement again with both.

1.My husband has been, and probably always will be, a little rough around the edges---i can live with that.

2.My husband has been, and probably always will be, abusive -i can live with that.

Please don't respond to that I just wanted you to clarify it with yourself.

Here's why I think it's the 2nd based on the info you have provided.

I know I have less depression when he is treating me better---I think I also deal with my health problems better when he treats me better-

Bingo - abuse = depression = health problems

You also mentioned that you're step father was abusive and you have been married to your husband 25 years who is abusive. So I'm thinking you may have been in an abusive environment for 35- 40 years

Things can seem like the norm after such a long period or you might convince yourself that I can live with it.

The truth is you can't, so you want out. I'm not saying out of you marriage. You want out of the environment and cycle of being depressed and health issues which are symptons of abuse. Other symptoms are low self esteem, rejection, loss of personal power. When a person is in this kind of environment for a long period of time they actually lose the ability to pull themselves out. If it started in their younger years it like a slow corrosion that goes unnoticed for many years. Think of it like quick sand. By yourself it's pretty much impossible to get out.

I would say 50 % of you posts is then targeted towards those who have failed to pull you out.

I called him on the carpenter thing and reminded him that he was entitled to inspiration to know how to help me---i really didn't know what kind of help we needed.

It seems to me that you have waited a long time for people to recieve inspiration for you. I wondered why you didn't just recieve it for yourself. You don't need your Bishop or your Stake President to go straight to God. His happy to give you the instruction for your personal life direct.

So I'm asking the question again. Is my husband a little rough around the edges or am I in an abusive relationship? Does this abusive relationship make me powerless? Do I blame others for not helping me overcome my situation? Do I need help to feel the self worth I'm entitled to? Can the atonement really help me?

Edited December 31, 2012 by Drpepper