The One Subject That Could Drive Me From The Church

[Adomini22]

I agree with you Kiwababee. I mean, if we are called to live it, then we should be righteous enought to pray about it and get our answer from God on it. I leave it at that. I know that God wont ask me to do something that wont be for my growth and benefit.....and of course, happiness. There truly are more pressing matters that will shake the faithful than what happened with the saints so long ago. Will it happen again? Maybe. Does it have relevance in heaven? Probably. Am I going to lose my faith in God and His church over it? um.. heck no.

[seekerw]

I think you are all thinking to deep into this.

....

But if you are going to let something that isn't even being practiced to shake your testimony, you have other things to worry.

For the record, polygamy IS INDEED currently being practiced, albeit in heaven, not on earth. That makes polygamy just as relevant today as it ever was in the early church.

Don't get me wrong. I have a testimony of the LDS church. I know the Book of Mormon is the word of God. I know we're led by prophets and apostles today. I will never deny that, and I won't leave the church over polygamy or any other doctrine. What I meant originally is that if there was any doctrine over which I might leave the LDS church, it is polygamy.

In spite of my testimony, it still bothers me that Joseph Smith stands to have over 80 wives in the eternities. The very thought seems to cheapen women by reducing them to being baby factories and, well, being a reward or a prize given to valiant men. It's like the Lord is saying, "Here, man, you've been faithful. Have two dozen wives as your reward." Never mind that they may have been just as valiant as he -- they have to share him with 20-plus sister wives. That's THEIR reward for being valiant, I suppose.

My youngest is the same age as Helen Marr Kimball when she was married to Joseph Smith. Do you know why he married her? Joseph had asked Heber Kimball for his wife Vilate in marriage, and Heber presented her to him. When Joseph refused, saying that it had only been a test, Heber asked him if he would take his daughter Helen in place of Vilate. Joseph said that this was acceptable. Helen later said that her father convinced her to marry Joseph, and that he was the only person who could have convinced her. In effect, Helen became a pawn in some game between Joseph and her father.

I have two daughters, ages 21 and 14. The thought of my daughters becoming the second, third, twelveth, fifteenth or fifty-seventh wife of one guy infuriates me, no matter how valiant he might be.

I know I might get castigated for saying this, but it sure seems that the only conclusion I can draw from polygamy is that a valiant man is better spiritually than an equally valiant woman. Either that, or children and eternal increase is the most important part of the gospel, more important than the husband-wife relationship, which seems to contradict what the church teaches in this matter.

If I were actually called to practice polygamy, I know I could adapt to it. I think I'll just not think of it again. The subject is too emotionally charged for me to handle. It strikes a discordant chord deep within me that I don't know how to resolve into a happier sound. I'm not saying it's wrong; I'm just saying I don't know how to feel right about it.

<div class='quotemain'>

Church girl,

I see you’re a Fundamentalist Mormon. Whenever I see that term, I automatically assume the person is a polygamist. Do you mind if I ask you whether you practice polygamy?

Webster's 1828 Dictionary

FUNDAMENT'AL, n. A leading or primary principle, rule, law or article, which serves as the ground work of a system; essential part; as the fundamentals of the Christian faith.

The gospel as restored, taught, and lived by Joseph Smith jr. is the above for me, which makes me a Fundamentalist Mormon. The vast majority of Fundamentalists that I know are monogamists. I, however, am a plural wife.

church girl,

Thank you for sharing that. If it's not too personal, would you mind sharing a little bit about your experience as a plural wife? I've never known anybody who was currently living in polygamy.

I know it must be a trial at times, but then, monogamous marriage is also trying at times. I'm particularly curious if you feel plural marriage demeans you in any way or makes you feel less important than a man. I'm trying to reach some peace over this issue, is why I ask.

Seeker

[BenRaines]

Seeker, that sounds like an honest question and I like your last post. Honestly I thought when you can here with this that it was just another anti here to cause trouble.

I know that there are many things that are unanswered to people but the points you made that you have a testimony of are the foundation upon which to build upon. I honestly don't know how to put the spire on a beautiful building but I could do a pretty good job laying the foundation. I think that true of our knowledge of gospel principles.

Ben Raines

[Blessed]

If I were actually called to practice polygamy, I know I could adapt to it. I think I'll just not think of it again. The subject is too emotionally charged for me to handle. It strikes a discordant chord deep within me that I don't know how to resolve into a happier sound. I'm not saying it's wrong; I'm just saying I don't know how to feel right about it.

Seeker

Seeker,

I appreciate your honesty and poignancy about polygamy. I, like Ben, liked this post. A lot. :)

[CrimsonKairos]

Seeker, I used to think the same way. I realized that I was unconsciously thinking of plural wives in terms of economic principles, and applying the law of marginal utility to them. In layman's terms, marginal utility states that the more of something you have, the less each one is worth (forgive the oversimplification). Consider a telestial example:

Saddam's son Uday used to manipulate Iraq's economy for his enrichment. He would buy all the dollars he could from banks/businesses/exchanges, and keep them out of circulation. Since there were less dollars on the market, each one became worth 500 to 2,000 dinars a piece. At this, Iraqis would panic and exchange thousands or even millions of dollars with the banks so they wouldn't lose the value of their money. Then, Uday would dump all the dollars back into the economy, buy millions of dinars and pretty much bankrupt anyone with money at risk (see "Saddam's Secrets" by Gen. Sada, p.210).

This illustrates marginal utility beautifully. The less dollars there were on the market, the more each dollar was worth; the more dollars there were, the less each one was worth. I don't think this is the case with polygamy. God has billions of spirit children, yet they are each of infinite worth. Having more children doesn't lessen the value of any of the rest of us. Same with mortal parents and their children too.

Families aren't like economies, or financial wealth. A wealthy person usually has "more" money or property than someone else. Having "more" doesn't equate to being "better" in terms of familial relations. The husband having more than one wife doesn't make him better than if the wife were to have more than one husband. It's not quantity that matters, it's being sealed by the priesthood.

I'm not stupid enough to think that my comments are going to eradicate your concerns about polygamy. I'm just sharing what thoughts led me to change my stance on polygamy. Who knows if that will make any sense to anyone other than me. In the end, I feel that in the next life our views on sex, marriage, multiple wives and etc... will be refined by a celestial gospel lens that would burn our eyes if we were to peer through it in our fallen state.

[BenRaines]

I agree CK, most look at it with mortal eyes, that is all we have right now. If looked at spiritually then it can and does make sense.

I liked your story

Ben Raines

[MaidservantX]

Seeker, I'm glad you think women and wives are rewards!!!

I am writing a science fiction fantasy novel that has as one of its elements, or themes, polygamy. Here is an excerpt you all might find slightly interesting.

[the head priestess is speaking] "There is," she said, "a husband tonight." The squirms, restlessness, joy were again audible. "All men listen." Some did. I knew for sure some weren't, because otherwise it would be a different world. I knew without looking that JeremiahOak was paying close attention. NebulaLois began another recitation, the one for marriage. "I call for JaredTrout." The young man stood--he was nineteen or twenty. He was shaking, full of emotion. That was a common reaction. He stood on the ground before Nebula's platform. "JaredTrout, you are a man who has been seen healing hurt animals. You are a man who has been seen laughing with his sisters. You have been seen running as fast as you could to catch up with your grandfather to help him with his load." JaredTrout's eyes were closed. He was remembering these things. Nebula was listing real actions that the young man had done over the years. "You have been seen securing an infant into a carry board. You are a man who has been seen chopping vegetables. You have been seen stopping a game of tickle when the little brother first asked you to. You are a man who has been seen to listen to your mother correct you without even a slight resentment in your face." She took a breath. Now she was coming to the part that was the same for every husband.

"There is within you a willingness to suffer for the purpose of giving birth. There is within you the touching of hands, the attention of eyes, for the giving of peace to your family and to the needy. There is within you gratitude. There is within you hope and honesty. There is within you thoughts and desire for stewardship of land and work. There is no boasting within you. There is no exclusion within you. There is no oppression within you.

"The words that come from you kindle belief and rejoicing in all who hear.

"At any and all times, you have provided for Women as they have had need of you.

"You have provided children with their true identity by the influence of your very presence.

"You have not resisted the Knowledge of Women. It is within you and you have nourished it and allowed it to create you as it is meant to do to all humans.

"Therefore, the gift given to you this night is a gift of Women. The gift is also a gift of children upon which you will be privileged to imprint your identity as their own.

"JaredTrout, you are a man worthy to be a husband. These women choose you."

Young women (from the darkness) began coming to where JaredTrout stood and surrounded him in a circle. I counted twenty-two, all between the approximate ages of fifteen and twenty five. A lot, but I had seen marriages with more. My father had sixteen. The least amount I had seen in my lifetime was nine. Jared's sisters could not, of course, marry him. They would have to wait for another. All of the young women who wished to marry now were standing around JaredTrout now. There were many, of course, both younger and older who had not stood. My mother had told me before that in recent years, the number of women ready to marry was getting greater compared to the number of men worthy. I had heard my mother and my father's other women talking about upcoming marriages and the women and young women--the priestesses--all knew who was preparing and deciding and which young men might be worthy and who were definitely not. But these kind of discussions never, ever took place in the presence of a male, even a toddler. Once they could walk, they wouldn't hear such things. The men who were chosen were all basically surprised, although I suppose many of them prepared on purpose, which they would just about have to do to be like everything that the marriage lyric spoke of.

JaredTrout was shaking. He could hardly look at the gifts, he was in awe and humility. He put his head in his hands and wept just a little. The Women were smiling and very excited, too. I guessed he had imagined this, but it was more than he could have imagined. But I saw that he did look at them, too, one at a time. He didn't want any one of the girls to think that he might have forgotten them. He was like my father.

[Dale]

The FAIR Wiki article on Joseph Smiths marriages to young women is useful. I agree with Todd Comptom that Joseph Smith's mortal relationship with Helen Mar Kimball was totally platonic. His idea was when she got older a relationship would have developed.

Men are totally denied even one wife in the eternity in every church outside the LDS. If Joseph Smith was given by God eighty wives or more I wouldn't hate God for it. Maybe we think like moderns and not like God who is ancient. If he wasn't given any wives by God then his polygamy ended in 1844.

[CrimsonKairos]

xhenli, your excerpt made me think that the society in your novel is matriarchal (the woman pronouncing the man's worthiness). Is that a premise of your fictional world? Also, as a writer myself, I'd be interested to know what your protagonist's goal is, and what main obstacle or foe stands in his/her way? And how does he/she plan to overcome it/them?

[MaidservantX]

What do you write, CK?

It's just me, but I don't like the words 'matriarchal' and 'patriarchal'. :) To me, in our current societal world view about those two words and their contexts, they restrict rather than reveal meaning. However, I'm sure you didn't mean to push THAT button on me, lol.

But yes, in this world/ story, the women own the property and the production, collectively for the sake of the families they are raising. They possess the religion, or cosmology. Men that become husbands enjoy these things through their wives. Men do have a great deal of responsibility for the leading and teaching of their children. The men do have networks as well, with brothers and other male relatives.

I might point out that when a woman in our world is asked by a man to marry him and she says 'yes' to him, then she has pronounced his worthiness.

The main character (first person narrater(sp?)) in this story is a young woman and the main thing she has to overcome is herself - it is a rite of passage type of story and where she has to decide (or not) to accept the role she is supposed to have in her society (some might call it rigid roles, which is how she feels) and accept her self and realize her inner identity. The climax of the story for the whole community is a blow up battle between the men who don't have women and the rest of the community -- as you might imagine lots of tension there. There is also some Savior/ atonement imagery going to take place, but I can't tell you how because I'm not completely sure how to give that. Also, one choice she is going to be involved in is that she and another young man -- who is pretty obviously never going to be pronounced worthy for wives -- fall in love. So does she go against everyone to choose him? Or does she realize the wisdom of the way of her community?

I am still writing this story so it is kind of wordy and emotive still. I try to make that stuff a little more precise when I revise. Here is the very first paragraphs of the story. By the way, the working (but not necessarily final) title of the story is "Male Sacrifice" so that may tantalize you with where I am attempting to go with it.

Chapter 1

When my father comes to see me, I always feel as if I am the end of his journey. I feel as if he kindles my life at strength abundant enough to last until the next time he visits.

Now that I am a little older, I think that this perception of mine may not really be so. I know that he loves and touches and speaks with all of the other Women That He Has and his children. But when I was very small, I would alert at the very first intimation of his presence in our Home. I believed that he looked at me first. I would be far across the huge main inner hall. I would be bent at some little task, such as folding cloths into exact and smooth squares. I would know that he was Home and look up. Always his eyes met mine.

I thought I knew that the walk he took through the hall was for the purpose of reaching me. I thought all of the other Women and children were interrupting him and delaying him with their smiles and hellos and touches and longer conversations. He was not done until he came and knelt on one knee before me.

"Hello, StarSarah." He touched my nose. "Let me hold you." Then I would be wonderfully lost in his chest and robes and arms. I would feel his chin pressing my hair.

If I said, "Look at what I did," and pointed out to him the results of my work, he would answer, "You love to make things smooth and exact." Then he would pull out a flower or stick or some tiny Thing That Got Left. "Such laughter!" he would exclaim under his breath in awe.

He never taught me about my job or told me whether I had done well or if I had made an error. Mother often spoke to me this way. But my father always forgot about my jobs even if I started to talk about them. Instead he would tell me about myself.

All of this is still true, of course. The only thing I realize now is that all of the other Women and children feel the same way. I am not the only destination nor the only treasure. This miraculous condition that binds him to us, and us to him, is one I often ponder.

Now I am eleven years old. My father came this morning and he found me at my job of milking goats. I jumped up to hug him. "StarSarah!" he greeted. When he put me back down, I remembered to loose the goat and set the pail where it would be stable and cool for several minutes.

"Are you still going to take JeremiahOak and I hiking early tomorrow?"

"Yes. You two meet me at the gates of your Home at a short time before the sun rises." He continues. "Sing me something, daughter."

"Not today," I blush.

"Not today?" he teases. "Then I guess I will have to wait for some sort of Convocation. I often think about your sweet voice. I remember the hymn you gave two months ago at the last Children's Celebration."

I reached into my pocket. "Look what I found a couple of days ago--a Thing That Got Left."

Into my father's open hand I drop a black plastic circle. There are tiny circular holes in an even design in the flat of the circle and ridges around the edge.

"I know it's a part, but I don't know what whole thing it belongs to."

He nods. "This is a very interesting Thing." He gives the dial back. He puts his hand on my head and kisses my forehead. "I will leave you now, but I will see you again this evening at Feast and Worship."

I observe as my father walks the distance to the pig pen. PaulBadger is perched up on one of the posts for an afternoon's lazy entertainment of watching the fat, snorting animals. The brother livens when he sees his father coming toward him.

[CrimsonKairos]

SORRY FOR HIJACKING THE THREAD AND MAKING IT ABOUT WRITING. Well, not too sorry. I love writing.

Interesting premise and through line, xhenli. Sorry 'bout matriarchal being a hot button for you. I hope you figure out how to weave the symbolism into your story that you want to. Male sacrifice, huh? Ouch. I wish you well in your literary endeavors. :)

As for what I write...mostly medieval fantasy stuff. I don't have time to think and write quality fiction right now. I'm working up a plot for a movie script I have on the back burner. Here's the first chapter from a story that's still in pre-planning. It might help you endure the writing style to know I was attempting to emulate the syntax, diction and level of detail that both Victor Hugo and Alexandre Dumas use in their excellent novels. Translation: it's a slower, more in-depth style than current novels typically employ. The themes I plan on using in the novel include suffering, strength and growth. some words are bleeped out by this site because they could be used improperly, i.e. s-u-c-k (without the hyphens).

The Welcome

"In three seconds I’m going to knock the breath out of you.”

The monotone voice was empty of emotion. The declaration was stated matter-of-factly, wrapped in neither anger nor hate. The small room wasn’t lit, making it impossible to see who was speaking or how far away they were. All the man chained to the wall knew was that he had woken up here, helpless and unable to move or defend himself.

He hadn’t any clothing aside from nondescript woolen trousers held loosely around his hips by a slack cord. Odd, he didn’t remember putting them on. His arms and legs were stretched away from his body by the chains, giving the impression that there was an “x” of flesh fastened to the cold wall.

He couldn’t see the fist as it rushed towards his naked stomach; the darkness robbed him of vision. The body’s automatic response to a deficiency in one of the five senses is to compensate by heightening sensitivity in one or all of the others. The man could not see; very well, his brain effortlessly doubled the acuity of his sense of touch. When the blow slammed into his stomach, he felt twice as much pain.

The shadow-shrouded voice had promised and delivered. Jagged knuckles crumpled the man’s diaphragm, expelling every last trace of breath from his quivering body. Instinct demanded that he double over in pain, shield himself from further assaults. The chains connecting his metal restraints to the wall demanded that he remain painfully upright and defenseless. The metal proved stronger than instinct; the chains’ demands prevailed; the man remained stretched straight while his muscles convulsed spasmodically.

Moving the only part of his body that wasn’t held firmly in place, the man lowered his head as though looking at his stomach could coax it to s-u-c-k air back into his burning lungs. Voluntary will opposed his body’s involuntary response to being struck, but nature overruled the man’s desperate wish for his diaphragm to relax enough to draw in air. His abdominal muscles remained reflexively clenched for what seemed an eternity.

The already dark room seemed to grow darker around the edges of the man’s vision. His brain was giving him signs that unconsciousness was near, if he had cared to notice. He did not. The only thought in his oxygen-starved brain—a tangential revelation—was that he now knew how a leather pouch must feel when its contents have been emptied.

He was full of emptiness, but the paradox was lost on the barely conscious man.

His muscles ignored his brain’s repeated commands to breathe for so long that eventually his mind ceased issuing the instinctual orders. It was at this moment of mental abdication that—for no reason other than that reflex had been satisfied—his diaphragm expanded with wonderful speed. A hoarse intake of breath rising in pitch heralded the return of sweet oxygen to lungs, blood and ultimately his brain.

The man lifted his head as the darkness in the room lifted as well.

A torch burning bright and dripping bits of flaming sap to the floor had appeared as if his sucking in air had mysteriously ignited the fuel-soaked stick. The sudden illumination stabbed radiant rays into his light-deprived eyes. Anyone who has passed time in a dark place only to be exposed unexpectedly to light knows how painful and annoying this can be, and so it was that his brain immediately forgot the pain in his belly and pushed the throbbing sensation of his eyes to the front of his attention. His pupils instantly contracted, overshot their mark, then dilated slightly to regulate the influx of light bombarding his retinas.

“That will do for now,” this in a tone of authority and from an entirely different voice, a deeper voice. Perhaps it was the person holding the torch. The bright light and commanding voice dispelled not only the silent darkness but also the man’s feeling of helplessness to a degree. Details of the room came into focus.

It was small, made of chiseled stone pieces varying in size from pebble to boulder. He remembered now that he had been blindfolded as “they” had chained him in place. He also recalled being drowsy and weak. Had he been drunk, drugged or both? Had “they” done it? Who were “they” anyway?

No answers were forthcoming, but a new command was.

“Release Talmeed, Aln.”

Talmeed—the chained man—wondered how they knew his name as he repeated the stranger’s name in his mind. Aln. So that was who had struck him. He would remember that name well. Talmeed’s eyesight had adjusted sufficiently to allow him to take in the details of the man before him. Aln was tall. His body was thick with muscles. Talmeed strained to see the other man, the one with the torch. Before he could get even a glimpse, Aln was standing in front of him, blocking his view as he obediently released the metal restraints.

Aln stepped back as Talmeed slumped to the floor, covering his stomach with both hands and peering up warily at the man looming over him. The chains, which were no longer stretched tight restraining their prisoner, clanged noisily against the wall. Before the sound had faded the next command came from the figure standing behind Aln.

“Leave him and come with me. We have others to welcome.” He spoke the word “welcome” flatly, without the tone of irony Talmeed expected of someone who saw beating chained victims as the act of a good host.

Talmeed heard the man holding the torch—the leader—tread softly from the cramped room. Aln remained for a moment. The receding torch’s light illuminated him from behind, causing a flickering halo to appear around him.

Ordinarily, Talmeed would have found the contrast of halo and darkness pleasantly striking. However, the past few minutes, complete with his beating, were anything but ordinary. One other feature remained visible in the dim light. Aln’s eyes glowed softly too.

Talmeed searched those amber eyes looking for hate, anger, anything that would have prompted the savage attack moments ago. He saw empty eyes, which frightened him more than if he’d seen traces of a murderer. He could make sense of Aln’s brutal act if he knew Aln possessed equally brutal emotions. Emotions were reasons; emotions were motivations.

A man capable of thrashing an innocent person without emotion presented the horrific picture of someone who didn’t need a reason to do dark deeds, someone who could act without motivation, someone whose behavior was not colored by feelings and hence not predictable but random; in short, someone who had released themselves from the prison of human nature by means unknown and who was capable of anything.

It is the unknown which terrorizes the mind.

If emotion hadn’t motivated Aln’s crushing attack, what had? The wavering orange glow surrounding Aln made it seem that he was consumed in flames, yet no fiery rage burned within him. He was an oil lamp empty of oil, yet somehow managing to stay aflame. This unexplainable phenomenon both puzzled and troubled Talmeed. As the human mind so often does when grappling with complex questions, Talmeed turned to analogies to help explain the glowing enigma standing before him.

He had barely begun to employ his reasoning powers when Aln turned calmly and left the room. The light, his tormentors and hope had left the room. Talmeed scooted into a corner of the room and sat, back to the cold wall, alone with his thoughts, the darkness and the pain in his stomach. The sound of Aln closing and bolting the wooden door behind himself echoed in Talmeed’s ears.

Sidestepping the question of why he had been beaten, Talmeed wondered why he was here. How had he gotten to such a horrible place? As if on cue, a blurry memory began floating up from the depths of his mind, its details fragmentary.

Entering an inn…ale being poured into my mug…asking for work…me, be a soldier? Sorry, not interested…wait, a private guard…well treated, ridiculously well-paid…I’m not sure…never fought before…free training?...where do I go?...fort such-and-such in the next valley over…are they hiring?...not sure I’d be accepted…what’s that?...they’ll give me a welcome I’ll never forget?...I guess it’s worth a try…riding my horse to a tall fort…knocking on the door…asking for training…being let in…a sudden blow to the back of my head…burning pain…then darkness…

Talmeed had received a welcome he’d never forget, that was certain. He wondered if the rest of what the stranger had told him last night in the inn was true as well? Was he to be paid large sums of money after his training here was complete? What sort of work did these private guards do, or more to the point, who or what did they guard?

How did being beaten prepare one for life as a guard? If this was how these teachers trained new recruits, Talmeed resolved to escape as soon as possible. How many more tormentors were there like Aln in this dark, stone fort? What else did they plan on doing as part of his training? More importantly, what would they do if they caught him trying to escape?

[Serg]

BenRaines;

Your opinion matters to me more than many others' in the forums, what do you think of me according to Blind-Crimson and Renegade-Shantress?

Differently than Antimormons, and very much differently than many of you each of those claims that Crimson lists I defended , I gave reasons for doing so, the last one was music, I was accused of not making sense, blah blah, of no arguments, yet when I finally spilled it in elementary school terms, suddenlu thay didnt get to contradict them, than let's bann Serg, then now(because we have no response) Serg ought o reevaluate his membership. Well that is painful, indeed.

Wasnt our arrangement in those past thrads that I would offer reasons and you answers? Nevertheless you stopped providing answers to my reasons, not because I was suddenly hostile, but because you coulndt! The hostile enviroment didnt come from me, but form many of you who in wanting to ditract the thread start considering pridefully of my worthiness, etc...

How serious and responsable debate is that? And in no stance did you warn me that you were offended or didnt want to procede, moreover you dared me to give 'proof'. Look, it;s not my fault that you are very out of touch with our history, that you have never read teh Reed Smoot transcripts, letters of prophets, diaries, etc... but why blame Serg about it because he has? Is not even a matter of such childih complaints of ; who' knows more. Is not about that. But about who doesnt want to know.

Ben, do you really think of me what Crimson says? Have I not given reasonable grounds to MY views? Are they floating in the air or are they somewhat founded?

Why reevaluate my stand? Have I not tired of saying that being a member doesnt mean believeing everything there is and that change is possible for a member to desire? Have I not explained that my stand is that of faith in what Josepg Received but not necessarily in all that many have since said received? Doesnt anybody else beside me understand that you can reasonably believe what one perosn says without believeing all. mostly when those other things are patently false?

Why then attack Serg? Oh, make no mistake, I feel not abandoned by any of you, for I have never ideed felt accompanied by neither anyways, but by some few good characters that have shown tolerance to others here, incredibly(aside of Ben and a few) most of them are non members....

Well, if you will take any procedure take that which you will Ben, you are part of the Admin. I thought you knew me better than they, maybe you still do. Try to get tham to understand, if not, and such excluding attitudes are to prevail then feel free to delete my account , because at any extent, why would I preserve an account(i hold dearly) which function is to express my views If the condition to do so is to actually stop to do it..?

I feel no obligation to nobody as to deny what I truly hold sacred, even if that is a different notion of what it means to be a mature lds member. Either you let me express my views, that in no way have resembled those of antimormons as I have provided also edifying posts of my testimony and for those against current orthodoxy have also presented arguments that remain, say, unanswered, or you delete my account and it has been a sweet and sour experience that of being here with all of you. Nonetheless, it remains your action.

As Campbell said "Where ignorance prevails, bigotry shall abound".

Hugh Brown , second counselor to McKay, said to students in BYU:

"We must preserve freedom of the mind in the church and resist all efforts to suppress it. The church is not so much concerned with whether the thoughts of its members are orthodox or heterodox as it is that they shall have thoughts. One may memorize much without learning anything. In this age of speed there seems to be little time for meditation.

And while all members should respect, support, and heed the teachings of the authorities of the church, no one should accept a statement and base his or her testimony upon it, no matter who makes it, until he or she has, under mature examination, found it to be true and worthwhile; then one's logical deductions may be confirmed by the spirit of revelation to his or her spirit, because real conversion must come from within... "

http://www.lds-mormon.com/brown.shtml

That was one kind of a leader.

Regards,

[shanstress70]

Not sure I'm a Renegade.

What did you mean by this statement? "Your opinion matters to me more than many others' in the forums, what do you think of me according to Blind-Crimson and Renegade-Shantress?"

[Serg]

that you share with Crimson a thought equally disturbing and unjustified of me, in his case, obviously because he is though a great person, a blind believer some times, you on the other hand, maybe because as you (as I believe, not sure now though-sorry) are not part of he Church, 'saw' the same he says in me,but because i resemble the renegade attitude of many apostates.

[CrimsonKairos]

*yawwwwwn* Wake me when it's over.

[kiwibabee]

In spite of my testimony, it still bothers me that Joseph Smith stands to have over 80 wives in the eternities. The very thought seems to cheapen women by reducing them to being baby factories and, well, being a reward or a prize given to valiant men. It's like the Lord is saying, "Here, man, you've been faithful. Have two dozen wives as your reward." Never mind that they may have been just as valiant as he -- they have to share him with 20-plus sister wives. That's THEIR reward for being valiant, I suppose.

Seeker

If I didn't know better I would say you were jealous.

Who is to say that those 80 wives will choose to be with Joseph Smith in the eternities.

There is no guarantee that I will want to be with my husband once all is said and done.

I just think there are things that will work themselves out on the other side.

as for sharing a husband, I think it will be in name only, as there are more women who will make it.

I think we will all be to busy working on the other side to worry about who we share.

[Serg]

It's over!

[Dale]

If Joseph Smith really will have 80 wives in the eternities we will have to get over ourselves. Or feelings won't change reality if he really will have all those wives.

[seekerw]

Seeker, I'm glad you think women and wives are rewards!!!

Are you serious about this? It sounds like I was being rather condescending myself. But I'll accept your word on this. I know women and men don't view things always in the same light.

I like your story a lot. I've copied it onto my computer for future reference. I don't have time to comment on it now, but will later.

Everybody,

I hope my comments on this subject haven't caused anybody any discontent and I do appreciate your forbearing with me. I realized after my last post why I feel so strongly on the subject of polygamy: I'm afraid. Under polygamy in the early church, women were free to enter and leave marriages at will. I know of at least one who left a monogamous marriage to become the third wife of another. I'm divorced and not yet remarried, but what if I was and my beloved wife left me for another man? That would devastate me, yet it could always happen under polygamy. I've never been very competitive. I'm a peacemaker at heart and am not interested in gaining advantage over somebody else, even under the accepted rules of the game. I'd much rather play by the understanding that I have my wife and you have yours, and let's respect that, and please don't take her away from me and I won't try to take away yours. Of course, I'd seek to build my wife up as much as possible and to love her and only her.

I've never earned very much money, and it would tear me apart to be excluded from polygamy because I couldn't afford it financially. Seeing men with multiple wives (and me with one or none) would lead me to doubt myself, wondering why I'm not as good or worthy as them. I would feel extremely jealous.

I think this is the root of my feelings about polygamy. I think I'm much better off to not think too much about polygamy, to seek to live worthily with one woman, and trust God that he will provide for my needs here and in eternity, and if my wife were to be happier with another, then to let her go and to be happy that she's with a better man than me.

Seeker