Instruments in Worship?

[CommanderSouth]

I went to a church of Christ meeting with my friend from work this evening. The topic was my perennial favorite in relation to his church, the use of instruments.

In my heart I don't have issue, in practice I don't have issue, but in terms of being able to refute his arguments, I simply can't do so well...

The idea that the early church didn't use intruments in SPITE of their use in Greco Roman worship, Davidic temple worship, and appearantly in revelation is striking.

The condemnation of usage of instrumentation in worship by early church leaders such as Eusebius, Calvin, Aquinas, and Justin Martyr is interesting.

A lack of this them seeming to use instruments and a lack of example in the new testament leads one to be curious.

I wish this was something I didn't just have to fall back on the whole testimony of the restoration thing, but maybe that is the point.

Any ideas?

I don't want to whine but I would just like to be able to argue on that without breaking into the restoration...

[Wingnut]

Are you talking about musical instruments? Can you be a little more specific?

[CommanderSouth]

Yes, I apologize,as is so often the case I think other people will instantly understand what I am thinking, even if I don't clarify...

[Guest]

Our bishop doesn't allow medical instruments in sacrament meeting. It's really annoying.

[Wingnut]

Yes, I apologize,as is so often the case I think other people will instantly understand what I am thinking, even if I don't clarify...

I'm really confused now, because when I first saw the thread title, I assumed it was about musical instruments. Your OP, however, doesn't seem to refer to music at all, yet you clarified that you are referring to musical instruments? Are your concerns related to current policies?

[CommanderSouth]

Yes. I am speaking of the use of musical instruments in worship (singing). The churches of Christ don't use them as they say the lack of use of them in the New Testament is evidence the early church didn't do this ergo we shouldn't. I am wondering from a biblical perspective is there any solid argument for instrumentation in worship when dealing with people who look through the lens of looking for either direct command, apostolic example or necessary inference.

[skippy740]

Maybe it's late for me, but if you're referring to the LDS Church:

Music 

Appropriate musical instruments are allowed per the CHI, but also under the direction/permission of the Bishop & ward music chair.

Typical instruments allowed for use in sacrament meeting are violin (perhaps a cello as well), flute and clarinet. (I played the clarinet.)

I've never seen a trumpet or other brass instrument, including a saxophone in sacrament meetings.

I believe the current policies are to ensure that the music is about the Lord and not about the performer. Some instruments are more "showy" or "edgier" than others.

Also, and it may just be me, but when I think of a brass instrument, it's loud. And that type of loudness is probably not conducive to feeling the spirit during sacrament meetings.

Firesides are a different thing entirely, such as Handel's Messiah performances. You can't do Handel's Hallelujah chorus without trumpets and French horns! :)

[SanctitasDeo]

I believe that the Lord does not actually mind instruments. Just because the early church may not have used them is not enough reason for us not to.

That is, the churches of Christ appear to find it important to emulate the early church in every way. That is admirable, I suppose, but that is not the goal of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Our goal is to worship the Lord now, and he apparently does not mind the use of instruments (or we would be doing something different). The topic of instruments seems to be a bit of a doctrinal sideshow, in that sense.

Do they believe everything else the church fathers wrote too? What about theosis? Do they use the Nicene Creed, or one of the heresies (since the church fathers did not necessarily agree with each other on that subject)?

The Russian Orthodox church does not use instruments either, but that has more to do with, as I understand it, the use of instruments of pre-Christian pagan worship in Russia than it does with the early church.

[CommanderSouth]

Much like everyone I suppose, they don't agree with theosis, though they do reject all creeds. I will say we all probably use agreeable statements of the "church fathers" and ignore the contrarian ones. Not necessarily I should say, but I think most do it to some extent.

I agree that thanks to revelation this is a moot point, but it is an interesting one to try to argue biblically...

[SpiritDragon]

This is a fascinating topic. I was unaware that the NT makes no reference to musical instruments in worship. However, the absence of reference is far from condemnation of musical instruments. I would say that without scripture condemning the act of using musical instruments the burden of proof rests with the church of christ and you have nothing to defend... your peer is the one in the position to defend that musical instrumentation is a violation. Jesus taught that he came to fulfill the law but not to do away with it. The old testament is full of musical instruments involved in praise. Did Christ do away with the use of musical instruments? If so why is there no mention of it? That is the angle I would argue myself, but arguing isn't always as useful as backing up to a testimony of the restoration.

[Guest gopecon]

The NT also is silent about using microphones, electric lighting and buses to transport youth groups. Perhaps they should also be avoided...

[Matthew0059]

The same argument could be applied for a multiple of subjects. Lack of evidence in the New Testament doesn't mean they weren't there. I'm unaware of the early church leaders' statements on the subject of instruments used in worship.

I do remember that something like this was an issue for Brigham Young in his early years. It's been a while since I read the account (it's in "Brigham Young: American Moses"), but IIRC he was taught that violin music was sinful as a child. But after hearing it for the first time, he loved it so much that it completely changed his mind on the matter. It brought real joy to his soul to hear it because it was so beautiful.

The admonition of Paul that we "think on" everything that is "lovely" (Phillipians 4:8) includes, IMO, music. There's no evidence against that at all, and it seems your friend's church is suffering in this regard because of the scarcity of information in the Bible.

Hopefully everyone has pretty good pitch, or the hymns could start to sound pretty awful.

[CommanderSouth]

The NT also is silent about using microphones, electric lighting and buses to transport youth groups. Perhaps they should also be avoided...

Right, though they would argue those are aids and not additions. They would argue music is an addition, akin to the "strange fire" in the OT.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I went to a church of Christ meeting with my friend from work this evening. The topic was my perennial favorite in relation to his church, the use of instruments.

In my heart I don't have issue, in practice I don't have issue, but in terms of being able to refute his arguments, I simply can't do so well...

The idea that the early church didn't use intruments in SPITE of their use in Greco Roman worship, Davidic temple worship, and appearantly in revelation is striking.

The condemnation of usage of instrumentation in worship by early church leaders such as Eusebius, Calvin, Aquinas, and Justin Martyr is interesting.

A lack of this them seeming to use instruments and a lack of example in the new testament leads one to be curious.

I wish this was something I didn't just have to fall back on the whole testimony of the restoration thing, but maybe that is the point.

Any ideas?

I don't want to whine but I would just like to be able to argue on that without breaking into the restoration...

What about the instrument of bread and wine or the anointing with oil?

[prisonchaplain]

Here is a pretty typical defense of music instruments, offered from an evangelical perspective: Are we supposed to use musical instruments in church?

[Dravin]

The same argument could be applied for a multiple of subjects.

That's the problem I see with the argument. How does one decide what to apply it to and what not to apply it to? A prime example is what I've quoted below:

Right, though they would argue those are aids and not additions. They would argue music is an addition, akin to the "strange fire" in the OT.

Well, I argue that the use of instruments is an aid to the use of sound waves in worship services of which one can find plenty of evidence in the Bible. What is the criteria they use to distinguish between addition and aid? Let's give it a whirl and see if it holds up.

[CommanderSouth]

That's the problem I see with the argument. How does one decide what to apply it to and what not to apply it to? A prime example is what I've quoted below:

Well, I argue that the use of instruments is an aid to the use of sound waves in worship services of which one can find plenty of evidence in the Bible. What is the criteria they use to distinguish between addition and aid? Let's give it a whirl and see if it holds up.

Normally speaking they derive sole authority from the bible. Reading with the hermeneutic of "Direct Command, Apostolic Example, Necessary Inference" is how they determine everything. The lack of command or example, and no need to infer the use of musical intruments leads them to reject it as adding to. They would site common sense as reason for pitch pipe or chorister or something like that. To add music would be something there is no evidence of in the first century church, and ergo. We shouldn't do that.

I found this on one of the many sites coC have covering this topic, it works well enough I think.

A mother sends her son to the market to buy a loaf of bread. He brings the bread home in a bag. The bag is merely an aid. Should he purchase a candy bar as well, he has disregarded the instruction of his mother by an addition.

And that is usually how the discussion goes (I have had this one often with not much luck on my side, and am usually left wanting in my own arguments) with my coC coworkers :)

[Dravin]

They would site common sense as reason for pitch pipe or chorister or something like that.

And I cite common sense that instruments are an aid to the use of sound in worship services. Round and round we go, where we stop? Nobody knows!

A mother sends her son to the market to buy a loaf of bread. He brings the bread home in a bag. The bag is merely an aid. Should he purchase a candy bar as well, he has disregarded the instruction of his mother by an addition.

If that is an argument in response to "Why no instruments?" then it is begging the question. It is assuming an instrument is an addition/candy bar, it does not establish such.

Edited February 28, 2013 by Dravin

[CommanderSouth]

And I cite common sense that instruments are an aid to the use of sound in worship services. Round and round we go, where we stop? Nobody knows!

If that is an argument in response to "Why no instruments?" then it is begging the question. It is assuming an instrument is an addition/candy bar, it does not establish such.

I'm working on getting a response to that one.

[Palerider]

If they had no instruments....I wonder how they danced ??