The Sequence Of The Death Of Joseph Smith

[Guest Amitunai]

According to the tour guide at Carthage the prison which Joseph Smith was murdered it is said that the only defense Joseph Smith had was the support of his fellows and their walking sticks to block the doors for protection.

But what I read according to Mormon traditionalist is that Joseph Smith had a smuggled weapon which killed or hit 3 men. Is this factual or is this made up?

This is said to be a picture of the actual weapons

What also seems to bother me is the fact that on the website of the prison on josephsmith.net, its also not mentioned Joseph Smith had a defense this is what it says.

"Val Brinkerhoff, 2004

"Joseph, seeing there was no safety in the room, . . . sprang into the window when two [bullets] pierced him from the door, and one entered his right breast from without." The Prophet exclaimed, "O Lord my God!" as he fell out of the window and onto the ground near a well below (History of the Church, 6:618)."

[CrimsonKairos]

It's in the History of the Church (7 vol). I believe Joseph and his fellows in prison had two pistols between them. Joseph supposedly shot three men, two later died from gunshots. He had sworn to protect his friends with his life, which is why he fought. He knew it was his time to go, but it wasn't necessarily his friends' time to die.

Why does this bother you?

[Guest Amitunai]

Well as I said on the tour they failed the mention this vital part in the history of the death of Joseph Smith and his brother. I assume it would have been easier to have made him seem helpless in stating he had no ambition on surviving by defending himself, because his martyrdom was for the sake of the church.

But lets say Joseph Smith did fire that weapon, doesn't this show that Joseph Smith had an intention to live if he could have possibly lived? Which is different from the way first century Christians excepted their martyrdoms. They knew they we're going to die, and died willingly, but Joseph Smith had a gun smuggled into the prison. Which did not belong to him prior to being sent to the prison, could Joseph Smith have been trying to avoid this martyrdom?

I'm sorry I completely missed something you said, well according to the history of the church vol. 6. Joseph Smith is said to have never drew his weapon until after his brother was shot in the head. And he fired this weapon before he fled toward a window. And the blood of his brother can be found in between 2 benches by the door at the prison.

"Joseph, seeing there was no safety in the room, . . . sprang into the window when two [bullets] pierced him from the door, and one entered his right breast from without." The Prophet exclaimed, "O Lord my God!" as he fell out of the window and onto the ground near a well below (History of the Church, 6:618).

[Guest Amitunai]

Notice as of now I am only using the references which I know from visiting the jail, and then from the multimedia tour on josephsmith.net

Before I am banned from this site, I know I will be soon. I will make my last and final reply in this post.

In Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling, by Richard L. Bushman he writes the following.

Quote on Quote:

Joseph pulled the trigger 6 times into the hail, dropped the pistol to the floor and sprang to the window, with one leg over the ceil he raised his arms in a masonic sign of distress. ---- He fell outward crying "O lord my God". [pg. 550]

Its a well known fact whether you believe it or not that Joseph Smith became a mason in the year 1842, and it is also a well known fact that when a mason is in trouble he yells "O lord, my God, is there no help for the widows son"..

This proves judging by the quote from the above book, which can be found by any of you and worded alot better that Joseph Smith was calling out for help, from someone who could have been a mason. But he only got to say half of the words, which left him saying "O my Lord, my God".

Your Brother,

Jerry

[CrimsonKairos]

And...?

You don't think Joseph Smith would've used all the powers at his disposal to deflect misfortune from his friends with him in prison? If a masonic sign would've gained him friends in the mob that would protect his friends, I see no better thing he could've done.

He was not a coward. He knew he would die. He did not wish his friends to perish with him. What kind of friend and leader wouldn't exhaust every possible recourse to shelter his loved ones from the wrath aimed at him?

Here's some more reading for you. The night before the martyrdom:

Joseph gave expression to several presentiments that he had to die, and said "I would like to see my family again," and "I would to God that I could preach to the Saints in Nauvoo once more." (History of the Church, vol. 6, p.601)

Joseph's last letter to Emma (an excerpt):

There is one principle which is eternal; it is the duty of all men to protect their lives and the lives of the household, whenever necessity requires, and no power has a right to forbid it, should the last extreme arrive... (ibid, vol. 6, p. 605)

This is not from the letter, but from the general history:

The morning being a little rainy, favoring [Cyrus H. Wheelock] wearing an overcoat, in the side pocket of which he was enabled to carry a six shooter, and he passed the guard unmolested. During his visit in the prison he slipped the revolver into Joseph's pocket. Joseph examined it, and asked Wheelock if he had not better retain it for his own protection...Joseph then handed the single barrel pistol which had been given him by John S. Fullmer, to his brother Hyrum, and said, "You may have use for this." Brother Hyrum observed, "I hate to use such things or to see them used." "So do I," said Joseph, "but we may have to, to defend ourselves;" upon this Hyrum took the pistol

[...] Said Joseph, "Our lives have already become jeopardized by revealing the wicked and bloodthirsty purposes of our enemies; and for the future we must cease to do so. All we have said about them is truth, but it is not always wise to relate all the truth. Even Jesus, the Son of God had to refrain from doing so, and had to restrain His feelings many times for the safety of Himself and His followers, and had to conceal the righteous purposes of His heart in relation to many things pertaining to His Father's kingdom. (ibid, vol. 6, pp. 607-608)

As the mob rushes up the stairs to kill the Prophet and other prisoners, this is what happened:

...Joseph, Hyrum, and Elder Taylor had their coats off. Joseph sprang to his coat for his six-shooter, Hyrum for his single barrel, Taylor for Markham's large hickory cane, and Dr. Richards for Taylor's cane. All sprang against the door, the balls whistled up the stairway, and in an instant one came through the door. Joseph Smith, John Taylor and Dr. Richards sprang to the left of the door, and tried to knock aside the guns of the ruffians.

Hyrum was retreating back in front of the door and snapped his pistol, when a ball struck him in the left side of his nose, and he fell on his back on the floor saying, "I am a dead man!" As he fell on the floor another ball from the outside entered his left side, and passed through his body with such force that it completely broke to pieces the watch he wore in his vest pocket, and at the same instant another ball from the door grazed his breast, and entered his head by the throat; subsequently a fourth ball entered his left leg.

A shower of balls was pouring through all parts of the room, many of which lodged in the ceiling just above the head of Hyrum. Joseph reached round the door casing, and discharged his six shooter into the passage, some barrels missing fire. Continual discharges of musketry came into the room. Elder Taylor continued parrying the guns until they had got them about half their length into the room, when he found that resistance was vain, and he attempted to jump out of the window, where a ball fired from within struck him on his left thigh, hitting the bone, and passing through to within half an inch of the other side. He fell on the window sill, when a ball fired from the outside struck his watch in his vest pocket, and threw him back into the room.

After he fell into the room he was hit by two more balls, one of them injuring his left wrist considerably, and the other entering at the side of the bone just below the left knee. He rolled under the bed, which was at the right of the window in the south-east corner of the room.

While he lay under the bed he was fired at several times from the stairway; one ball struck him on the left hip, which tore the flesh in a shocking manner, and large quantities of blood were scattered upon the wall and floor.

When Hyrum fell, Joseph exclaimed, "Oh dear, brother Hyrum!" and opening the door a few inches he discharged his six shooter in the stairway (as stated before), two or three barrels of which missed fire.

Joseph, seeing there was no safety in the room, and no doubt thinking that it would save the lives of his brethren in the room if he could get out, turned calmly from the door, dropped his pistol on the floor, and sprang into the window when two balls pierced him from the door, and one entered his right breast from without, and he fell outward into the hands of his murderers, exclaiming, "O Lord, my God!"

Dr. Richards' escape was miraculous; he being a very large man, and in the midst of a shower of balls, yet he stood unscathed, with the exception of a ball which grazed the tip end of the lower part of his left ear. His escape fulfilled literally a prophecy which Joseph made over a year previously, that the time would come that the balls would fly around him like hail, and he should see his friends fall on the right and on the left, but that there should not be a hole in his garment. (ibid, vol. 6, pp. 617-619, emphasis added)

Why the obsession over whether Joseph was a "traditional Christian martyr" or not? And why would you be banned from the site for posting opinions about reasons Joseph might have had for having a pistol? Are you really an anti posing as a member?

[Palerider]

sorry.....I have been to Carthage several times and they do in fact mention that he had a weapon there and they tell how he got it.

[MaidservantX]

We could 'semantic' the idea of 'martyr' to death. It doesn't matter if Joseph Smith falls in the category of 'martyr' or not as a matter of technicality. It is a handy word to describe what happened to him, but it isn't some kind of catechismical stamp upon the event. I believe I have heard it said that he sealed his testimony with his blood. I don't know if that is in any scripture, or just a phrase that floats around. Before he went to jail that last time, Joseph (and Hyrum) did try to escape and hide from the people that were coming to capture him; I think he was going to cross the river. When I read that story, I personally get the sense that he was scared out of his mind. But then there is the scene, just as he was to go over the river, where he was borne upon by the feelings and fear of the members, the consequences to them if he didn't go to jail, so he said something to the effect that if that was all his life was worth to his friends, then it wasn't worth it to himself. (Somebody help me and make this more accurate, lol!) I expect it didn't take a prophet to get a pretty good idea that this time around -- going to jail -- he wasn't going to survive it. I'm sure he was going to do his best to survive it, if possible. There's no shame in that personally or religiously.

[Palerider]

Prior to going to Carthage....Joseph was in hiding. At which point a friend made a comment in regards to his hiding out. Shortly after that remark ...Joseph then said...if my life is of no use to my friends its of no use to me. This is not a direct quote its from my memory......LOL

[john doe]

Just because a tour guide failed to remember that tidbit on your visit, doesn't mean they deliberately left it out. I have read several people who have been on the jail tour and they were told of it. The church doesn't hide the fact that JS had a gun. In fact, they display the guns in their own museum. It's not news. It was 2 guns against what, 40? Not exactly a fair fight . As far as I know, he emptied the gun blindly into the corridor/stairway, and as far as I'm aware no one was killed by his shots. If he had wanted to kill his attackers, he certainly could have, all he would have had to do was wait until he saw an actual person in front of him. It is clear from his actions that he knew he was the object of the mob's hatred, and that his death would probably save his brethren. I believe the main reason he jumped from the window was to keep the mob from laying seige to the jail until all inside were dead.

[Dr T]

From that, you know you will be banned from LDS Talk?

[LionHeart]

I'm sure Joseph was concerned for his companions; and I am equally sure that he was concerned for his own life as well. But look at it this way: If you somehow knew that next year the world was going to end, would you quit your job, or cease your education or whatever you may have going and loaf around for the remaining year? I certainly wouldn't.

As far as the mason issue goes, I beleive Joseph attained to a master mason. His brother Hiram was also a mason, as was Brigham Young and John Taylor and Wilford Woodruff. In fact many great men of the time were masons; men like George Washington and Ben Franklin.

I believe that many of the things included in the church were a result of Joseph's membership among the masons. This, in my opinion, does not lessen his status as a prophet of God.

L.H.

[Guest Amitunai]

here is a depiction of the events of the death of Joseph Smith, filmed in the very room which he was murdered in. WHERE is the gun, they made Joseph Smith look so soft and fragile and it didn't show him really defending anyone.

It actually looks like hes scared for his own life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tKAUE7DpjI

This should go into the point I was making earlier, people love to leave out the little part about the gun

[john doe]

Does the LDS Church NOT display these guns? I don't know what you're trying to get at here. The LDS Church does not deny that Joseph had a gun. Or that he fired it. If someone was trying to kill you, your brother, and your friends and you had a weapon, however insignificant, would you use it? Or would you just stand around waiting to be killed? Personally, I'd protect my family and friends as much as possible. Maybe you're more of a pacifist. To each his own.

[CrimsonKairos]

This should go into the point I was making earlier, people love to leave out the little part about the gun

So what's your point, bro? That the LDS Church is false because we don't show Carthage jail as the wild west in our videos? Straining at a gnat tends to give you a pretty bad neck-ache, trust me. Let that little gnat go. B)

[Outshined]

I've always felt that Joseph was reacting to seeing his brother killed before his eyes. I can't imagine how much grief and anger that must have stirred up in him.

The fact that he had a little pistol against an armed mob means nothing; if anything it makes me respect him more.

I think critics want to make much more of it than it was.

[Guest Amitunai]

People this is silly, now you know on the video the death took place nothing like that. You keep basing you views on the events based on your internal faith rather then textual evidence.

Either way Joseph Smith still comes out the hero, even if the LDS church makes videos depicting him as not so, in the actual place he was killed... Which proved my point....

You know theres a group in Islam called Shia Islam, every Muslim knows they don't follow the traditions of the Prophet, except them they can't believe they don't. So when you tell them they will say "We're the only people who care about the deaths of the Prophets family members, we still cry till this day about their martydom's".

But the thing is they actually do cry about the martyrdoms 1400 years later, claiming that they're still fighting the same battles from 1400 years ago with Sunni Muslims. Who are more-so the traditionalist in that religion.

But the Shia place these deaths of their Imam(s) as god's will for the Shia sect to co-exist. Even though these men died in wars; like for instance Husayn ibn 'Ali he hated the king and fought him, and got killed in combat.

Now hes an infalliable saint.

[Latter Days Guy]

here is a depiction of the events of the death of Joseph Smith, filmed in the very room which he was murdered in. WHERE is the gun, they made Joseph Smith look so soft and fragile and it didn't show him really defending anyone.

It actually looks like hes scared for his own life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tKAUE7DpjI

This should go into the point I was making earlier, people love to leave out the little part about the gun

What was the name of the Greg Simpson song from the above clip?

[LionHeart]

What was the name of the Greg Simpson song from the above clip?

The song is called "Soul, Heart and Mind."

L.H.

[CrimsonKairos]

Two questions:

People this is silly, now you know on the video the death took place nothing like that. You keep basing you views on the events based on your internal faith rather then textual evidence.

First: How do you determine this? Did I not type with my own fingers about ten to twelve paragraphs from the History of the Church?

Second: Are you a true member or a poser? What's your problem with this whole thing?

[CrimsonKairos]

What witness supposedly saw Joseph make this sign? The mob who killed him? Where is your documentation?

Amitunai, what IS the point? You're being passively antagonistic and vague about your concern. What pray tell is the problem you're pointing out?

And you didn't answer my question: Are you a member of the LDS Church or a poser?

[Guest Amitunai]

In the book entitled

Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling, by Richard L. Bushman he writes the following.

Quote on Quote:

Joseph pulled the trigger 6 times into the hail, dropped the pistol to the floor and sprang to the window, with one leg over the ceil he raised his arms in a masonic sign of distress. ---- He fell outward crying "O lord my God". [pg. 550]

Read the Richard L. Bushman bio, hes certainly qualified as a mormon historian. And he admits to being a devout member of the LDS church in the introduction of the book.

Lets say this IN THIS TOPIC, I belong to no religion. So that I may not be bias.

But outside of this thread that is another issue.

[CrimsonKairos]

But where did he get his info? What eye-witness account does he cite as the person who saw Joseph make this masonic sign? Neither Dr. Richards nor John Taylor saw it, or if they did, I don't have their account.

And what does the "in this topic I have no religion" comment mean? I'm asking a plain question: Are you a baptized and practicing member of the LDS Church? I'm not asking on a per thread basis. Are you active in the LDS Church or not?

[Outshined]

But where did he get his info? What eye-witness account does he cite as the person who saw Joseph make this masonic sign? Neither Dr. Richards nor John Taylor saw it, or if they did, I don't have their account.

Exactly. Richards and Taylor are the only two eye witnesses on record. The mob itself was, by necessity of the crime they were committing, anonymous.

[Guest Amitunai]

so everyone is making this up.......

Joseph Smith's Death—Masonic Cry

(Excerpt Mormonism—Shadow or Reality? p. 485)

Although Joseph Smith found himself in trouble with the Masons, he gave the Masonic signal of distress just before he was murdered. In his book concerning Masonry, William Morgan gives this information concerning what a Mason is supposed to do "in case of distress": "The sign is given by raising both hands and arms to the elbows, perpendicularly, one on each side of the head, the elbows forming a square. The words accompanying this sign, in case of distress, are, 'O LORD, MY GOD! is there no help for the widow's son?' " (Freemasonry Exposed, p. 76)

John D. Lee claimed that Joseph Smith used the exact words that a Mason is supposed to use in case of distress: "Joseph left the door, sprang through the window, and cried out, 'OH, LORD, MY GOD, IS THERE NO HELP FOR THE WIDOW'S SON!'" (Confessions of John D. Lee, reprint of 1880 ed., p. 153)

Other accounts seem to show that Joseph Smith used the first four words of the distress cry. According to the History of the Church, Joseph Smith "fell outward into the hands of his murderers, exclaiming. 'O LORD, MY GOD!' " (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 618) Less than a month after Joseph and Hyrum Smith were murdered, the following appeared in the Mormon publication, Times and Seasons:

"...with uplifted hands they gave such SIGNS OF DISTRESS as would have commanded the interposition and benevolence of Savages or Pagans. They were both MASONS in good standing. Ye brethren of 'the mystic tie' what think ye! Where is our good MASTER Joseph and Hyrum? Is there a pagan, heathen, or savage nation on the globe that would not be moved on this great occasion, as the trees of the forest are moved by a mighty wind? Joseph's last exclamation was 'O LORD MY GOD!' " (Times and Seasons, Vol. 5, p. 585)

The Mormon writer E. Cecil McGavin admitted that Joseph Smith gave the Masonic signal of distress: "When the enemy surrounded the jail, rushed up the stairway, and killed Hyrum Smith, Joseph stood at the open window, his martyr-cry being these words, 'O Lord My God!' This was NOT the beginning of a prayer, because Joseph Smith did not pray in that manner. This brave, young man who knew that death was near, started to repeat THE DISTRESS SIGNAL OF THE MASONS, expecting thereby to gain the protection its members are pledged to give a brother in distress. "In 1878, Zina D. Huntington Young said of this theme, 'I am the daughter of a Master Mason; I am the widow of the Master Mason who, when leaping from the window of Carthage jail, pierced with bullets, MADE THE MASONIC SIGN OF DISTRESS, but those signs were not heeded except by the God of Heaven.' " (Mormonism and Masonry, by E. Cecil McGavin, page 17)

On page 16 of the same book, Mr. McGavin quotes the following from the Life of Heber C. Kimball, p. 26: " 'Joseph, leaping the fatal window, GAVE THE MASONIC SIGNAL OF DISTRESS.' "

[BenRaines]

Please share with me "eyewitness accounts" as has been pointed out earlier in this thread Elders Taylor and Richards were the only eyewitness survivors of the shooting. If they are being quoted then tell us where. If it is hearsay I don't know any place where that holds up.

Second thing is "What is the point?" Lets say he fought them with hands and fist and had a machine gun to defend himself along with grenades against an illegal arrest. Does that make his death any less dead or him any less a martyr?

Again "What is the point?"

Ben Raines