Why does Satan play a role in the plan of salvation?

[ZionsRodeVos]

Another thought I've had recently is wondering why Satan and his followers play any role in the plan of salvation.

We've been taught that there must be an opposition in all things. Wouldn't it frustrate God's plan more if Satan and his followers did not tempt us. Then there would not be an opposition in all things. Wouldn't that mean that we could not know good because we knew no evil?

Or would people without being tempted choose to rebel against God just as it seems Lucifer rebelled when as far as we know, there was no one tempting him?

[Traveler]

Another thought I've had recently is wondering why Satan and his followers play any role in the plan of salvation.

We've been taught that there must be an opposition in all things. Wouldn't it frustrate God's plan more if Satan and his followers did not tempt us. Then there would not be an opposition in all things. Wouldn't that mean that we could not know good because we knew no evil?

Or would people without being tempted choose to rebel against God just as it seems Lucifer rebelled when as far as we know, there was no one tempting him?

From talks even in the most recent conference - Satan desires to make all men miserable like unto himself. As a fallen being or from his stand point, Satan has nothing to lose and everything to gain by tempting us.

His work is about his power and his glory so he willingly plays into G-d plan to use his opposition.

The Traveler

[ZionsRodeVos]

From talks even in the most recent conference - Satan desires to make all men miserable like unto himself. As a fallen being or from his stand point, Satan has nothing to lose and everything to gain by tempting us.

His work is about his power and his glory so he willingly plays into G-d plan to use his opposition.

The Traveler

Yes, I understand that Satan wants us all to be miserable like himself. What I am wondering if by him not tempting anyone if that wouldn't better ruin the plan of salvation by removing his opposition. Would him not tempting us lessen the test and possibly make it irrelevant?

Obviously there is a reason it would not work, else I think he'd already be doing that if it was the better way to get back at God but I don't see why it wouldn't work.

In 2 Nephi 2:11-13 we find:

11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.

13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

By these scriptures I understand that without opposition in all things righteousness could not exist and with no righteousness, no happiness and a lot of other things including if these things are not there is no God. So, is there something compelling Satan to tempt us to create this opposition in all things or could he stop? Surely, he knows these things better than we and also has access to the scriptures if he needed them. And if he could stop then why doesn't he and so cause what is written in the above verses to happen?

[Anddenex]

Another thought I've had recently is wondering why Satan and his followers play any role in the plan of salvation.

We've been taught that there must be an opposition in all things. Wouldn't it frustrate God's plan more if Satan and his followers did not tempt us. Then there would not be an opposition in all things. Wouldn't that mean that we could not know good because we knew no evil?

Or would people without being tempted choose to rebel against God just as it seems Lucifer rebelled when as far as we know, there was no one tempting him?

In scripture we are informed that during the millennium the adversary will not have power to tempt or destroy, if I am reading and understanding the doctrine correctly, the children of God, yet we discover that some form of opposition must remain even during the millennium, otherwise God's plan would be frustrated.

From my understanding of scripture, the adversary still believes he is God. He still believes the children of Heavenly Father should worship him and not the Savior. As suggested also, we know he is compelled to make us miserable like unto himself.

I would assume much like unto a compulsive liar. Once they start, they don't quit because they eventually believe every lie they have spoken themselves.

Satan, like a child, is fixated on his goal.

[EarlJibbs]

Is it suggested then that without Satan, mankind would not sin? If so, I find that hard to beleive. How many times can you honestly say that it was because of Satan you did something wrong?

The mere fact that we have a body promisses us the same temptations. It would not remove carnal thoughts and desires if Satan wasn't around. Sure I think that Satan sure does push things along, but by simply removing him, doesnt remove the "Natural Man" from inside of us.

That said, would we probably be a lot better? Sure. But there would still be opposition. I dont think that the plan wouldbe altered in the least.

[ZionsRodeVos]

I guess I was thinking more along the lines of the only reason we do things we should not is because of Satan and his minions tempting us. It does make it easier to view the war in heaven by thinking that someone tempting us is not required to do wrong since I am not aware of there being anyone around to tempt Lucifer to rebel against God.

I also was of the opinion that since Satan would be bound for those thousand years that temptations would simply go away and so that the testing could be complete for anyone born during the millennium that was why Satan would be released for a short time after the millennium so that he could introduce opposition again for all those that had not experienced it.

Thanks, this gives me more to think about.

[Anddenex]

I guess I was thinking more along the lines of the only reason we do things we should not is because of Satan and his minions tempting us. It does make it easier to view the war in heaven by thinking that someone tempting us is not required to do wrong since I am not aware of there being anyone around to tempt Lucifer to rebel against God.

I also was of the opinion that since Satan would be bound for those thousand years that temptations would simply go away and so that the testing could be complete for anyone born during the millennium that was why Satan would be released for a short time after the millennium so that he could introduce opposition again for all those that had not experienced it.

Thanks, this gives me more to think about.

In the beginning of the millennium there will be people of all faiths, who were good and wholesome. The ability to choose between two different faiths provides "opposition" an enticing between one faith and another. However, Satan will be bound by the righteousness of the children of God, thus when people here truth, I am more inclined to believe they will be more willing to accept it.

We know eventually, every knee and tongue will confess Jesus is the Christ and every person will be a member of God's true gospel.

[ZionsRodeVos]

But I figured that the reason in the millennium that everyone would eventually join the true church was because of the lack of temptation of Satan and once everyone does convert then there would no longer be an opposition to the true church.

[Anddenex]

But I figured that the reason in the millennium that everyone would eventually join the true church was because of the lack of temptation of Satan and once everyone does convert then there would no longer be an opposition to the true church.

Indeed, I think the key term is "no longer opposition to the true Church."

Remember, as a people we will still be growing line upon line, precept upon precept, grace for grace, etc...

The difference is that all children will be taught of the Lord, and through instruction and correct understanding of true doctrine the decisions they make may be similar to our Savior when he was a child.

We won't have the huge variance either between member families who attend their meetings, all will be actively engaged in the cause. Thus, opposition will still apply to us individual and us working together as a people.

I still think there will be arguments, however these arguments will be among people who love God, and these arguments will only go so far due to the faith and righteousness of the people.

Some of my thoughts, take it for what it is worth.

[ZionsRodeVos]

I seem to lack in a lot of areas and thinking about aspects of the gospel is one in spite of all I have actually learned.

I didn't think we would know and understand everything just because the millennium started and so we will of course have to be learning which is what you reminded me of with the line upon line precept upon precept.

I also would have thought there would be no arguments once the influence of Satan was removed. Again I ascribed more to his role in such a way that without him around then we would all do good and not do any evil. And maybe that could still be correct but that it won't make us all think alike just because he can't tempt us.

I just came to another realization. Because during the millennium Satan will be bound means that the plan of salvation could not be frustrated without his presence. Although this is not to say that his role is not needed but it gives me another way of considering why he is active here on earth because his inactivity wouldn't stop the plan but it seems it would still have an affect on opposition in all things.

[Finrock]

Good afternoon ZionsRodeVos! :)

Another thought I've had recently is wondering why Satan and his followers play any role in the plan of salvation.

We've been taught that there must be an opposition in all things. Wouldn't it frustrate God's plan more if Satan and his followers did not tempt us. Then there would not be an opposition in all things. Wouldn't that mean that we could not know good because we knew no evil?

Or would people without being tempted choose to rebel against God just as it seems Lucifer rebelled when as far as we know, there was no one tempting him?

I have found this article on Devils from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism to be helpful in finding answers to these questions.

Satan only has those powers given to him by God and can only do what God has specifically allowed him to do (D&C 121:4).

Further, it is not necessary for there to be a devil in order for us to do evil.

"People could not demonstrate their love of God and their willingness to do the work of righteousness sufficiently to qualify them for exaltation unless they were subject to, and able to overcome, evil and devil adversaries, such as Satan and his hosts (2 Ne. 2:11-22)."

And, this final point I want to quote from the article because I think it is really important but not often understood:

"When Satan tempts a person to do evil, there are limits to what Satan can accomplish. He can put before a person any kind of evil opportunity, but that evil is enticing only if the person tempted already desires that thing. When people are tempted, it is actually by their own lusts (James 1:12-15)."

Regards,

Finrock

[ZionsRodeVos]

Thanks! That article is full of interesting information.

Well my first inclination is to think that if there is no need for a devil for people to do evil then why even bother to have one, especially when God can control everything the devil is allowed to do. But I guess it's just another aspect of this test called life.

[Finrock]

Thanks! That article is full of interesting information.

Well my first inclination is to think that if there is no need for a devil for people to do evil then why even bother to have one, especially when God can control everything the devil is allowed to do. But I guess it's just another aspect of this test called life.

Take a look at 2 Nephi Chapter 2. Our test requires us to overcome evil and devil adversaries.

The reality is that God allows all of the conditions that we experience in this life. Good or bad, God allows it. It is necessary. The conditions we have are the conditions that must exist in order for us to be able to have the experiences necessary in order to qualify for eternal life.

Regards,

Finrock

[ZionsRodeVos]

I searched for references of devil in 2 Nephi chapter 2 before my previous reply but did not find anything that seemed to mean "overcome evil and devil adversaries" I'll have to read the entire chapter and see if I get that meaning out of it. And maybe I should have searched for evil instead of or in addition to devil.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Surely, he knows these things better than we and also has access to the scriptures if he needed them. And if he could stop then why doesn't he and so cause what is written in the above verses to happen?

I don't know if he understands them better than we did in the pre-mortal existence at least in terms of understanding through faith. He had all the information in front of him just like we did and yet he chose another path. Is that because he didn't understand them or didn't "buy into it"? I think part of our understanding was based in faith and not a perfect understanding. Obviously, Lucifer didn't have the faith that those who chose to keep with God's plan did. This is a character issue, not a level of understanding issue. Many people in this life reject truth even though it is plainly before them, they lack faith and they have become hardened to the spirit.

I think he still doesn't comprehend or "buy into" the idea that faith is required to have all that God has. So laws and principles that pertain to the building of faith or the testing of faith probably have no significance to him.

[Finrock]

I searched for references of devil in 2 Nephi chapter 2 before my previous reply but did not find anything that seemed to mean "overcome evil and devil adversaries" I'll have to read the entire chapter and see if I get that meaning out of it. And maybe I should have searched for evil instead of or in addition to devil.

The chapter as a whole speaks to this idea. It is speaking about the Plan of Salvation and it identifies the actors, the conditions of our test, and the solution (the atonement). Starting with verse 11 in this chapter Lehi identifies that in order for there to be righteousness, there must be sin. So, this is one obstacle of mortality for us to overcome. Sin, or evil. There must be an opposition.

Then, later in verse 17, Lehi identifies something different. He speaks about the devil. Although the devil tempts us to sin, the devil is not the same as sin. Lehi teaches us that we must also overcome tempation from the devil.

Finally, consider these verses from Chapter 2:

"28 And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great Mediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit;

"29 And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom."

I want to emphasize verse 29 because this has the notion of us needing to overcome sin and devil adversaries.

Taken in context Lehi is teaching in essence that in mortality we must purge from us the natural man while we are also being tempted to give in to our lusts (natural man) by the devil.

Regards,

Finrock

[Finrock]

Another thought came to my mind. Lehi states explicitly:

"For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things."

Isn't it true that we are all born with the light of Christ which leads us to goodness? Further, isn't it true that God sends his angels and the Holy Ghost to help us?

Perhaps the natural man is in opposition to the light of Christ while a devil adversary would serve as an opposition to the angels and the Holy Ghost God sends to help us do good?

Regards,

Finrock

[Pain-of-Salvation]

Unfortunately, just from my brothers experiences and stories, there are definite "planes" of evil just as there are "planes" of good. Without getting into too much detail (he got into astral projection and weird stuff), there are countless demons who try to tempt us in our "plane" of reality by planting "seeds" of temptation; these seeds are aimed to get the natural man out of us (carnal sin being a chief weapon)....interesting from his point of view, our guardian angels can come closer to our planes and ward them off. In his opinion, the more righteous you are, the more you react to your guardian angels, the Holy Ghost, inspiration and voices of warning....if you get into the "dark", the demons have more openings to attack your soul. Scary stuff I know. Nobody talks about guardian angels, but I always think we should pray specifically for help from our guardian angels.

My brother thinks he actually met the Devil or witnessed him on an astral projection one time, on a different "plane" of existence that is more or less "parallel" with this world and he witnessed a meeting between the Devil (he thinks) and countless demons and overheard them talking about specific people and how they would be attacked or brought into their fold. My brother says the feeling he had at this time was actually more "misery" and "sad" than "feeling evil or bad". But the misery feeling made him feel the intent was evil.

If this is true, then we definitely know the purpose of the devil is to make us miserable. He is in absolute misery, knowing he can never progress.

My question is after his role in the plan, could he ever be forgiven? If so, could we handle a prodigal son situation?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Unfortunately, just from my brothers experiences and stories, there are definite "planes" of evil just as there are "planes" of good. Without getting into too much detail (he got into astral projection and weird stuff), there are countless demons who try to tempt us in our "plane" of reality by planting "seeds" of temptation; these seeds are aimed to get the natural man out of us (carnal sin being a chief weapon)....interesting from his point of view, our guardian angels can come closer to our planes and ward them off. In his opinion, the more righteous you are, the more you react to your guardian angels, the Holy Ghost, inspiration and voices of warning....if you get into the "dark", the demons have more openings to attack your soul. Scary stuff I know. Nobody talks about guardian angels, but I always think we should pray specifically for help from our guardian angels.

My brother thinks he actually met the Devil or witnessed him on an astral projection one time, on a different "plane" of existence that is more or less "parallel" with this world and he witnessed a meeting between the Devil (he thinks) and countless demons and overheard them talking about specific people and how they would be attacked or brought into their fold. My brother says the feeling he had at this time was actually more "misery" and "sad" than "feeling evil or bad". But the misery feeling made him feel the intent was evil.

If this is true, then we definitely know the purpose of the devil is to make us miserable. He is in absolute misery, knowing he can never progress.

My question is after his role in the plan, could he ever be forgiven? If so, could we handle a prodigal son situation?

Part of his misery, I think, is based in him realizing that he cannot progress further. The realization of that comes from knowing himself, his character. Just like at the end of our journey here, we will have a better view of the limitations of our character or what we say is the "desire of our heart". Satan's desire of the heart, or his true character is one in which he could not reach a level of glory. That is who he is and that is why he is in misery. If we fall short of our goal at the end of this life we will go through that type of misery (maybe not to the extent satan has) while in spirit prison realizing the nature of our being is one that has limits. It is not just a realization of certain acts, it is a realization of the nature of our being, the "desire of our heart" as that is the whole purpose of this passage to see if we will do the things we are asked to do despite carnal temptation.