Fat hate

[Guest]

It's said that the overweight/obese are the last group of people against whom it is acceptable to discriminate.

Why do you think that is?

I don't deny that our culture is one whose eating habits are largely suffering. I think that's more an economic issue than anything. I also acknowledge that as technology advances, we become more sedentary. But I also think that as there are more demands on our time, it's harder to find the time to make up for the time we spend sitting (in other words, get out and burn calories). We are sleeping less, stressing more, working more, managing more. . . but exercising less.

I also believe there are a lot of environmental factors that have, in combination with our poor diets (brought about by less time and money), caused greater prevalence of diseases which make it harder to maintain a "healthy" weight.

Even though I am healthier and more fit than I've ever been, I am overweight by the world's standards. I have thin friends who are in worse health and condition than I am. But if you were to look at me side-by-side with one of those naturally thin friends, I bet I could guess who would be judged more harshly.

So in short, why is fat hate okay, especially in a culture that pushes so much diversity and live-and-let-live philosophy?

[Guest]

Here is a good "for instance":

Mike Jeffries, Abercrombie CEO, Reportedly Hates Fat Customers, Only Wants ‘Thin And Beautiful People’

I'm in the best shape of my life, but can't quite shop there because I'm not thin enough to fit the "cool" image. And A&F is more successful than they've ever been.

[MarginOfError]

A lot of it has to do with the fact that, by and large, people still consider weight to a behavioral issue. In many ways that's true; even people with genetic or acquired conditions that make it difficult to maintain "normal" weight are still able to make choices that might reduce their weight. What we tend to ignore is that there are a multitude of factors both in and out of our control that contribute to a person's weight as well as to their ability and/or drive to maintain healthy weight.

There is so much ambiguity surrounded with determining if a person's weight is a product of their medical conditions or their personal choices (or a combination of both) that most people choose to ignore the ambiguity (a normal human response to ambiguity). Thus, many people end up in either the "don't judge people for their conditions" camp or the "they should make better choices camp."

The medical field isn't much better. We are much more interested in telling people to lose weight than we are in understanding why it is so difficult for them to do so.

The attitude I've come to adopt is that if a person is overweight, I hope that they at least periodically ask themselves if they could be doing more to be at a healthy weight. If their answer is that they could not, then let them be. If their answer is that they could, then I hope they will make the effort. But until I get to know a person more intimately than looking at them, I try to refrain from judging whether their choices are healthy or not.

[Vort]

It's said that the overweight/obese are the last group of people against whom it is acceptable to discriminate.

Why do you think that is?

Lots of things get said that are not literally true, but hyperbolic. This is one of them. In fact, there are many groups of people against whom it is perfectly acceptable to discriminate: child molestors, loud people, those with strong BO, those who insist on imposing their social mores on others around them, etc.

In some cases, "discrimination" against the obese makes sense. If a 400-pounder buys an airline ticket, it simply makes sense that s/he pay for two seats, not one. (In fact, if I ran an airline, I would sell tickets that entitled the buyer to one airline seat and 300 total pounds of weight allowance, including both the ticketholder and all of his or her luggage and carry-ons. If you go over, you pay extra. If you can't fit into a seat, you buy two.) Similarly, if such a person goes to an "all-you-can-eat" buffet, it seems reasonable to me that s/he pay more than the 98-pound waif.

But the root of your question is why fat folks face so much more hostility than others. I think this comes down to the societal preference for beauty. In our culture, obesity is not considered beautiful. Fatness in general is considered unbeautiful; only thin, well-proportioned people fit the beauty mold. Those who aren't beautiful, whether because of facial deformity, acne scars, or fat, get treated less politely by society.

Beautiful people have always received preferential treatment. This is not a new phenomenon; it's probably as old as Adam and Eve. It is not fair, but it is factual. Part of what we strive to learn in life is to look beyond the surface and treat all people as children of God, not just the pretty ones, and to judge righteous judgment. None of us need be told that our popular culture is corrupt. Reject the world.

[Guest]

In the cases where obesity is the cause of poor choices, when healthy food is available as well as opportunity to exercise, I just think this:

What if all our vices were visible to everyone else? What if something on you marked that you make terrible financial choices, or had a porn problem, or that you were two-faced, or neglect your children, or any number of weaknesses? Most people have the advantage of hiding their shortcomings from the public.

[Guest]

In the cases where obesity is the cause of poor choices, when healthy food is available as well as opportunity to exercise, I just think this:

What if all our vices were visible to everyone else? What if something on you marked that you make terrible financial choices, or had a porn problem, or that you were two-faced, or neglect your children, or any number of weaknesses? Most people have the advantage of hiding their shortcomings from the public.

Public scorn can be a healthy thing. Because, if there was no public backlash for undesirable choices, then the choices are free to continue. But, we all tend to fail to differentiate between hating the sin, loving the person.

So instead of expecting everyone to accept visible poor choices to be fair to not-so-visible poor choices, it is better to reject poor choices - visible or not - but continue to love the person.

[MarginOfError]

Public scorn can be a healthy thing. Because, if there was no public backlash for undesirable choices, then the choices are free to continue. But, we all tend to fail to differentiate between hating the sin, loving the person.

So instead of expecting everyone to accept visible poor choices to be fair to not-so-visible poor choices, it is better to reject poor choices - visible or not - but continue to love the person.

That's the kind of language I think is problematic, though...when we use language that paints obesity as a sin (whether that is our intended meaning or not) we do more harm than good.

[Guest]

That's the kind of language I think is problematic, though...when we use language that paints obesity as a sin (whether that is our intended meaning or not) we do more harm than good.

I was directly responding to this:

In the cases where obesity is the cause of poor choices, when healthy food is available as well as opportunity to exercise, I just think this:

What if all our vices were visible to everyone else? What if something on you marked that you make terrible financial choices, or had a porn problem, or that you were two-faced, or neglect your children, or any number of weaknesses? Most people have the advantage of hiding their shortcomings from the public.

Therefore, I am addressing the poor choices that leads to obesity. Poor choices are sinful and excess is covered in WoW 89. Okay, transgression. Love the transgressor, hate the transgression. Sin is a more popular use of the quote but whatever.

To be frank, there are more people who are fat because of poor choices than those who are fat because of circumstances beyond their control. People like to use "medical reasons" as an excuse to make those who point out the bad choices scared of calling the apple an apple. It's just part of this political correctness crap that gags those who can effect change.

Edited May 8, 2013 by anatess

[Guest]

As I understood it, in this thread, we are talking about the poor choices that leads to obesity. Hence, my response to a direct quote of this:

Nope, we're talking about why it's okay to judge and discriminate against big people, regardless of the reasons.

Interesting that it's assumed that poor choices are the issue, though.

[Guest]

In the cases where obesity is the cause of poor choices, when healthy food is available as well as opportunity to exercise, I just think this:

What if all our vices were visible to everyone else? What if something on you marked that you make terrible financial choices, or had a porn problem, or that you were two-faced, or neglect your children, or any number of weaknesses? Most people have the advantage of hiding their shortcomings from the public.

Nope, we're talking about why it's okay to judge and discriminate against big people, regardless of the reasons.

Interesting that it's assumed that poor choices are the issue, though.

I was responding to YOU. YOU talked about obesity as a product of POOR CHOICE. Not me. I merely responded to it.

It is okay to discriminate against THE POOR CHOICES of big people. Just like it is okay to discriminate against the poor choices of alcohol drinkers. But, like I said - love the person, regardless.

Edited May 8, 2013 by anatess

[Guest]

But that means you're assuming that every large person is large because they are sinful or weak or making bad choices. I observed that that was interesting. I also find it interesting that one would equate poor nutrition to drinking alcohol.

In my OP I asked about discrimination against big people. My second post was a secondary thought to that.

No need to yell at me anatess, we're just having a discussion.

[Guest]

But that means you're assuming that every large person is large because they are sinful or weak or making bad choices. I observed that that was interesting. I also find it interesting that one would equate poor nutrition to drinking alcohol.

In my OP I asked about discrimination against big people. My second post was a secondary thought to that.

No need to yell at me anatess, we're just having a discussion.

I wasn't yelling at you. I was EMPHASIZING words. Yes, I should use the bold font but it is a lot more hassle to press the bold icon than pressing the caps. Yes, not an excuse. I apologize.

But no, I did not say that every large person is large because they are sinful or weak.

I was merely responding to your post about those who are fat because of their choices. Hence the direct quote.

[Guest]

Okay.

[Guest]

So how does one tell if someone is overweight because of their choices, and thus to be benefited by public scorn?

[Vort]

So how does one tell if someone is overweight because of their choices, and thus to be benefited by public scorn?

Yell at them and berate them. Expose them to public humiliation. If they object to your actions, they are proving that they are hiding something and deserve your wrath and ridicule. On the other hand, if they meekly accept what you say, then they obviously agree with you. It's utterly foolproof.

(Sorry, Eowyn. Not trying to make light of your thread. The opportunity was just too good to let pass.)

[Guest]

So how does one tell if someone is overweight because of their choices, and thus to be benefited by public scorn?

Not by just looking at them.

But, I've been teaching my children since they were born that you should try to associate with people who live according to your standards and try to avoid people who do not.

So, if what you were saying about your weight before you did something about it was because it was a product of your choice, it's fine if my kids don't want to associate with you. But, my husband who gained 40lbs after herniating 2 of his discs and is struggling with adjusting his exercise habits to fit the injury and going through a cycle of depression caused by his health frustrations... my children, hopefully, can see beyond the extra 40lbs. and see the internal struggle that my husband is going through trying his best to stay healthy.

So yes... it's not just a surface - eew, he's fat. It requires a good understanding of D&C 89.

Edited May 8, 2013 by anatess

[Guest]

Actually, I have 2 chronic health issues that I was likely born with that predispose me to obesity, and I have to work twice as hard as anyone else to maintain being overweight instead of obese. I've been both, and I was worth just as much both ways. I was as spiritual both ways. I have the same strengths and weaknesses either way. I'm the same person. But I AM treated differently.

Additionally, my childhood was affected negatively in a very real way because of fat haters. Not because I was fat, because my weight wasn't an issue really until adulthood (mostly because I starved myself as a teen, and I was still bigger than a lot of my friends), but because my mom was obese. I could go into all the ways that affected me, but it would take awhile. In short, she wasn't very present because she was ashamed that she couldn't lose weight even though she tried, so I was alone a lot, and I had to defend her a lot. Even as a small child.

The only thing I can say for certain is that struggling with that and later with my weight probably taught me a compassion I might not have had if I had never had to fight so hard. I think it's really easy for people who are naturally thin or who can easily and successfully do the things to stay fit to judge anyone and everyone who is not like them. Who has the greater sin, I wonder? Really, I wonder.

[Guest]

Not by just looking at them.

But, I've been teaching my children since they were born that you should try to associate with people who live according to your standards and try to avoid people who do not.

So, if what you were saying about your weight before you did something about it was because it was a product of your choice, it's fine if my kids don't want to associate with you. But, my husband who gained 40lbs after herniating 2 of his discs and is struggling with adjusting his exercise habits to fit the injury and going through a cycle of depression caused by his health frustrations... my children, hopefully, can see beyond the extra 40lbs. and see the internal struggle that my husband is going through trying his best to stay healthy.

So yes... it's not just a surface - eew, he's fat. It requires a good understanding of D&C 89.

Are you saying that you'd be okay with your children shunning the heavier me, as long as it was because of my choices? As long as they show compassion to the big person who they know has problems?

[Guest]

Yell at them and berate them. Expose them to public humiliation. If they object to your actions, they are proving that they are hiding something and deserve your wrath and ridicule. On the other hand, if they meekly accept what you say, then they obviously agree with you. It's utterly foolproof.

(Sorry, Eowyn. Not trying to make light of your thread. The opportunity was just too good to let pass.)

Actually, I thank you for helping me make my point.

[bytor2112]

I think everyone would prefer to be fit and athletic looking rather than frumpy or just plain fat. Obesity is a serious medical condition and regardless of the cause, should be taken as serious as any other life threatening illness.

That said, wanting to look and be fit are two very different things and the former takes a lot of discipline and hard work...it is truly a lifestyle that most people aren't willing to commit to especially as they age. There are many people that while they are not fat per se, they are unshapely due to poor diet and minimal or no exercise.

Diet (meaning meal plan) not starvation is important and if you diet but can't seem to drop the pounds, see a medical professional for some blood work. It could be hormonal, thyroid issue or diabetes.

As for hating on fat people....some people are just gonna hate. I saw a former super model now in her late 30's in a bikini....seriously zero booty and oh so not attractive, just painfully thin. The point is, I would rather have some back side to lose, because she can't ever gain one.

Edited May 8, 2013 by bytor2112

[MorningStar]

The sucky thing about being fat is that if you quit all unhealthy behavior cold turkey, your 40 days of sobriety still looks fat. The disapproving looks continue and it feels like a no win situation. It takes a long time before people feel you are no longer disgusting.

About the A&F thing - it just made me laugh. I've never shopped at their ridiculous store and I never will, but now I'm all eager to go try on some size small shirts in their dressing room. BWAH HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAA!!!!

I joked to a friend last night, "Oh, they sell clothing? I thought they sold naked people."

[annewandering]

I was directly responding to this:

Therefore, I am addressing the poor choices that leads to obesity. Poor choices are sinful and excess is covered in WoW 89. Okay, transgression. Love the transgressor, hate the transgression. Sin is a more popular use of the quote but whatever.

Since when are poor choices sins? Not ever in anything I have ever read or heard in the gospel. Poor choices are most often nothing to do with sin.

[annewandering]

But, I've been teaching my children since they were born that you should try to associate with people who live according to your standards and try to avoid people who do not.

I can not believe you would say something so totally offensive. People who are overweight are people that it is ok to teach your kids to avoid because they do not live up to your standards? Are you serious?

[Vort]

I can not believe you would say something so totally offensive. People who are overweight are people that it is ok to teach your kids to avoid because they do not live up to your standards? Are you serious?

I don't allow my children to associate with those who have poor dental hygiene, who regularly listen to and enjoy Canadian entertainers other than Rush, or whose parents attended the University of Utah. I consider myself a charitable person, but I have my limits.

[annewandering]

I don't allow my children to associate with those who have poor dental hygiene, who regularly listen to and enjoy Canadian entertainers other than Rush, or whose parents attended the University of Utah. I consider myself a charitable person, but I have my limits.

Well I have to agree about the University of Utah. Other than that. hmmm