Jesus The Christ

[Shade]

i remember being taught looooong ago that our world was the only world wicked enough to humiliate, torture and murder the Son of God and that was why He came here.

has anybody else encountered this teaching anywhere?

[rosie321]

i remember being taught looooong ago that our world was the only world wicked enough to humiliate, torture and murder the Son of God and that was why He came here.

has anybody else encountered this teaching anywhere?

I've heard people saying things like that before. Not sure if just opinion or fact though

[the_jason]

Heavenly Father said he created this world in the same manner as other worlds prior. If those worlds were just like this world then they would have had to have a Savior just as we did. I'm sure it was not the same as our Savior. They would have had their own.

My personal thought, anyway.

[rosie321]

Heavenly Father said he created this world in the same manner as other worlds prior. If those worlds were just like this world then they would have had to have a Savior just as we did. I'm sure it was not the same as our Savior. They would have had their own.

My personal thought, anyway.

Not sure how comment without possibly coming off in a wrong way here when going off into unchartered territory.

It seems very strange to me the concept that Heavenly Father would keep repeating the same process and that there would be so many different Christs for His numerous creations.

The creation of other worlds could have occured as ours but was all the followed the same?

Why did each planet have to have their own Christs?

Why couldn't Gods only begotton be the one and only final sacrifice or are there a whole group of Christs that stepped forward in the premortal existance?.

Were people from other planets at the origional council or were there different premortal councils for each planet?

Above was the comment about the atonement and focusing on the basics of the gospel. These questions could defineately impact the way that one were to view it.

[CrimsonKairos]

D&C 88 vs 57 Isn't this parable referring to our earth only?

Let's establish context to determine what the "kingdoms" are that the parable in verses 51-61 talks about.

D&C 88

v. 36 "All kingdoms have a law given;"

vv. 42-43 "And again, verily I say unto you, he hath given a law unto all things, by which they move in their times and their seasons;"

"And their courses are fixed, even the courses of the heavens and the earth, which comprehend the earth and all the planets."

vv. 45-47 "The earth rolls upon her wings, and the sun giveth his light by day, and the moon giveth her light by night, and the stars also give their light, as they roll upon their wings in their glory, in the midst of the power of God."

"Unto what shall I liken these kingdoms, that ye may understand?"

"Behold, all these are kingdoms, and any man who hath seen any or the least of these hath seen God moving in his majesty and power."

v.51 "Behold, I will liken these kingdoms unto a man having a field, and he sent forth his servants into the field to dig in the field."

Verse 36 says all kingdoms have a law given. Verses 42-43 say that all things have a law given to them, and defines "all things" as the heavens and the earth which include "all the planets." Syllogism time:

1. All kingdoms have a law given to them;

2. The heavens and the planets have laws given to them; therefore...

3. The heavens and planets are considered "kingdoms."

Verses 45-47 establish beyond dispute the fact that the heavens and planets are "kingdoms." How? Verse 45 lists the earth, the sun, the moon and the stars. Then verse 46 asks what to liken "these kingdoms" to. Then verse 47 seals the deal by saying that "all these are kingdoms."

Finally, verse 51 answers the question posed in verse 46. The Lord likens "these kingdoms" (which include the heavens and planets) to a field with twelve servants sent out to dig (v. 51). Verses 52-57 explain that the lord of the field told each servant he would visit the first servant for one hour, and then move on to visit the next servant for an hour, until he had visited all twelve servants.

v. 58: "And thus they all received the light of the countenance of their lord, every man in his hour, and in his time, and in his season—"

What do the twelve men in the parable represent? Verse 61 is almost an exact copy of verse 58 except in place of the word "man" it says "kingdom," as here:

v. 61: "Therefore, unto this parable I will liken all these kingdoms, and the inhabitants thereof—every kingdom in its hour, and in its time, and in its season, even according to the decree which God hath made."

This verse teaches several significant things. First, it mentions that "these kingdoms" have inhabitants. This would suggest that among the "kingdoms" which are the heavens and the planets, there are planets with their own inhabitants, distinct from our planet and its inhabitants. Second, it says that the Lord will visit each of these "kingdoms" separately for a specific period of time, just like the lord of the field in the parable visited each servant separately for one hour.

Conclusion? I believe that just as Jesus visited the Nephites after his resurrection, he will personally visit all other "kingdoms" and their inhabitants, according to the pattern in the parable. Gives new meaning to, "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold, and them also I must visit..."

the_jason: You said: "Heavenly Father said he created this world in the same manner as other worlds prior. If those worlds were just like this world then they would have had to have a Savior just as we did. I'm sure it was not the same as our Savior. They would have had their own."

I disagree. I think the symbolism in the parable I just discussed includes the following:

The field = God's kingdom as a whole, His "stewardship" if you will;

Twelve servants = The various "kingdoms" or planets (whether twelve or twelve million) with their inhabitants.

I believe Heavenly Father administers salvation to His spiritual progeny alone. Since the inhabitants of the other planets or "kingdoms" are within God's "field" or stewardship, it follows that those inhabitants are among His spirit children. As such, these other inhabitants--as God's children--would still be covered by Christ's atonement.

God didn't gather everyone together premortally and say, "Okay, for planet x I propose Jesus serve as its Savior. Planet y...hmmm...it should have a different savior...any recommendations?"

Jesus is the Savior of all of God's spiritual children, past, present and yet to be born. There is no need for a different savior for each "kingdom" or planet. Christ's atonement is infinite and eternal, encompassing the heavens and the planets with all their inhabitants.

To God alone the glory!

[rosie321]

<div class='quotemain'>

D&C 88 vs 57 Isn't this parable referring to our earth only?

Let's establish context to determine what the "kingdoms" are that the parable in verses 51-61 talks about.

D&C 88

v. 36 "All kingdoms have a law given;"

vv. 42-43 "And again, verily I say unto you, he hath given a law unto all things, by which they move in their times and their seasons;"

"And their courses are fixed, even the courses of the heavens and the earth, which comprehend the earth and all the planets."

vv. 45-47 "The earth rolls upon her wings, and the sun giveth his light by day, and the moon giveth her light by night, and the stars also give their light, as they roll upon their wings in their glory, in the midst of the power of God."

"Unto what shall I liken these kingdoms, that ye may understand?"

"Behold, all these are kingdoms, and any man who hath seen any or the least of these hath seen God moving in his majesty and power."

v.51 "Behold, I will liken these kingdoms unto a man having a field, and he sent forth his servants into the field to dig in the field."

Verse 36 says all kingdoms have a law given. Verses 42-43 say that all things have a law given to them, and defines "all things" as the heavens and the earth which include "all the planets." Syllogism time:

1. All kingdoms have a law given to them;

2. The heavens and the planets have laws given to them; therefore...

3. The heavens and planets are considered "kingdoms."

Verses 45-47 establish beyond dispute the fact that the heavens and planets are "kingdoms." How? Verse 45 lists the earth, the sun, the moon and the stars. Then verse 46 asks what to liken "these kingdoms" to. Then verse 47 seals the deal by saying that "all these are kingdoms."

Finally, verse 51 answers the question posed in verse 46. The Lord likens "these kingdoms" (which include the heavens and planets) to a field with twelve servants sent out to dig (v. 51). Verses 52-57 explain that the lord of the field told each servant he would visit the first servant for one hour, and then move on to visit the next servant for an hour, until he had visited all twelve servants.

v. 58: "And thus they all received the light of the countenance of their lord, every man in his hour, and in his time, and in his season—"

What do the twelve men in the parable represent? Verse 61 is almost an exact copy of verse 58 except in place of the word "man" it says "kingdom," as here:

v. 61: "Therefore, unto this parable I will liken all these kingdoms, and the inhabitants thereof—every kingdom in its hour, and in its time, and in its season, even according to the decree which God hath made."

This verse teaches several significant things. First, it mentions that "these kingdoms" have inhabitants. This would suggest that among the "kingdoms" which are the heavens and the planets, there are planets with their own inhabitants, distinct from our planet and its inhabitants. Second, it says that the Lord will visit each of these "kingdoms" separately for a specific period of time, just like the lord of the field in the parable visited each servant separately for one hour.

Conclusion? I believe that just as Jesus visited the Nephites after his resurrection, he will personally visit all other "kingdoms" and their inhabitants, according to the pattern in the parable. Gives new meaning to, "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold, and them also I must visit..."

the_jason: You said: "Heavenly Father said he created this world in the same manner as other worlds prior. If those worlds were just like this world then they would have had to have a Savior just as we did. I'm sure it was not the same as our Savior. They would have had their own."

I disagree. I think the symbolism in the parable I just discussed includes the following:

The field = God's kingdom as a whole, His "stewardship" if you will;

Twelve servants = The various "kingdoms" or planets (whether twelve or twelve million) with their inhabitants.

I believe Heavenly Father administers salvation to His spiritual progeny alone. Since the inhabitants of the other planets or "kingdoms" are within God's "field" or stewardship, it follows that those inhabitants are among His spirit children. As such, these other inhabitants--as God's children--would still be covered by Christ's atonement.

God didn't gather everyone together premortally and say, "Okay, for planet x I propose Jesus serve as its Savior. Planet y...hmmm...it should have a different savior...any recommendations?"

Jesus is the Savior of all of God's spiritual children, past, present and yet to be born. There is no need for a different savior for each "kingdom" or planet. Christ's atonement is infinite and eternal, encompassing the heavens and the planets with all their inhabitants.

To God alone the glory!

Crimson I liked your points, could follow them, and found myself agreeing for the most part with your interpretation of it. But the unto 12 is the only thing that is throwing me for a loop. I know this is just a parable but I can't help but wonder if that 12 means something more. It is very specific in its unto the 12 as though that number has some significance. Why 12? When scriptures specifically mention numbers like that it usually has some significance-12 tribes of Isreal, 12 apostles, the 70, 3 days in the belly of the whale, Christ dead for 3 days.........................

From my interpretations of POGP especially there are many many worlds beyond our own. Far more than 12. So I couldn't help but consider the possibility of it being associated with the 12 tribes. Any more thoughts as to the importance of the 12?

[CrimsonKairos]

The parable itself doesn't elaborate on the significance (or insignificance) of the number twelve in this instance.

I personally don't believe it has anything to do with the twelve tribes, or that anyone who has lived on this earth has "migrated" to other planets.

But I don't have proof to back up this specific opinion, and I may very well be wrong. I just don't think the lost tribes of Israel are anywhere but on this planet, mixed among the nations.

[rosie321]

The parable itself doesn't elaborate on the significance (or insignificance) of the number twelve in this instance.

I personally don't believe it has anything to do with the twelve tribes, or that anyone who has lived on this earth has "migrated" to other planets.

But I don't have proof to back up this specific opinion, and I may very well be wrong. I just don't think the lost tribes of Israel are anywhere but on this planet, mixed among the nations.

Thanks Crimson. I think you are correct in that the 12 probably doesn't involve the 12 tribes because of its reference to the other worlds. If it were referrring to our own world only it might work. Like when Christ appeared to His other sheep. Its difficult to imagine him spreading Abraham/ Israels seed over many planets.

Being as specific as it was on the number 12 gets me thinking. Just another one of those mysteries yet to be revealed I suppose:)

[CrimsonKairos]

It strikes me that there being twelve servants sent out to dig might correspond to there being roughly twelve hours of light during the day, before night time. The lord visited his servants presumably during the day, while they had light enough to work. When night falls, no work can be done (without electricity or a ton of lamps, anyway).

This might relate to the days of our mortal probation, with night fall being Judgment Day, the point at which no more labors can be performed. D&C 64:23-25 reads:

"Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming."

"For after today cometh the burning—this is speaking after the manner of the Lord—for verily I say, tomorrow all the proud and they that do wickedly shall be as stubble; and I will burn them up, for I am the Lord of Hosts; and I will not spare any that remain in Babylon."

"Wherefore, if ye believe me, ye will labor while it is called today."

Just my two cents.

[LT04]

I agree that the children are mixed in with the other nations of the earth. We the children of earth have all the problems we can handle now as far as salvation goes without having to acomplish inter-planetary travel so the 12 tribes can all return home.

What about this idea returning to the concept "G-d was as we are now, and we may become as G-d is now." What is our earth is the product of our G-d and his only begotten son. The worlds older than ours were created G-d's parents and grandparent.... The worlds that are to come will be created by the worthy inhabitants living here on this earth. Yes there would also be worlds created by our heavenly fathers worthy brothers, (I didn't say sisters b/c creationism from what I understand is a priesthood thing) cousins.... you get the idea.

According to this concept that would make Jesus the Christ, and Satan unique to our would. The way I picture it Jesus and Satan are like twins you couldn't tell apart (making Satan that much more terrifying as an adversary do to his potential ability to possibly stand in to the less informed who don't know what to look for.) and as far as power and abilities they WERE equals. (lets not get confused here any more than we have to) (pardon the analogy I'm going to use it doesn't do the real thing justice it just helps me put things into perspective) Both Jesus and Satan were applying for the job of Christ of earth. If Jesus wanted the job or not (considering we can all agree Jesus would be more humble then the other option) I think is irrelevant b/c its obvious he was in the running. Also according to this theory that would make the position or title of Christ more like Governor / creator of Earth and its subordinate solar systems, stars, planets yada yada yada, this would all be made possible through the power of G-d that would later be bestowed upon the chosen applicant. Well we know how the interview process went down and who got the job and who didn't.

Consistent with this hypothesis that would make the events and actions of people on every other world irrelevant to the day to day operations, salvation and out come of this one. The only thing we would have in common is we are all receiving bodies and being tested in hopes we can return home to our perspective heavenly parents. The grand council in heaven only presided over our piece of the pie, until the frame work was established and the vital roles were filled upon completion of its tasks it would be dissolved and stewardship of the outlines roles given to the proper people. From there every one including our selves knew the plan b/c we all had a vote as to how would happen. I do honestly think we all had a vote b/c in any version of the Bible I have read (and I have read several my wife is Catholic, my uncle is Anglican, and my dad is a Nazarene) in Genesis when they are creating the earth and for example create man it says "let us create him in our own image" suggesting there was more than one person. Yes I know this could be possibly misinterpretation, and reinterpretation and infinite number of ways, but this post is the gospel according to me.

Let me know what you think,

-LT04

[CrimsonKairos]

I think our Heavenly Father, through Jesus Christ, created more than just our planet to be inhabited by God's spirit children. In that respect I think there are countless planets with inhabitants that worship God the Father in the name of the Son.

The difference is we are living on the planet where Christ performed his mortal ministry and atonement.

There was never a question as to who would be the Savior of the world(s). Why?

A perfect atonement requires a perfect sacrifice, and Jesus was the only spirit child of God who was perfect from "day one," as it were.

I don't think before the war in heaven that Jesus and Satan were equals. True, Satan was an angel in authority, but Jesus was the Firstborn (primogeniture) and the only perfect son of God...obedience accelerates spirituality and purity fuels power so...Jesus was simply the most glorious, powerful child of God in heaven then and now. B)

[the_jason]

Perhaps I'm wrong then. I have no problem admitting it. My question, however, is does it really matter? We know he is our Savior.

[CrimsonKairos]

Amen.

[LT04]

You guys are right It doesn't matter what could have been b/c Jesus just is The Christ.

But I do recall a contaversy I heard about between Jesus and Satan in the grand council When Jesus said send me I will bring home all the faithful and all the glory will go to you father, and Satan said send me father I will return with every one (via taking away free agency) and all glory will go to me.

Did I imagine this or is this in the PoGP?

-LT04

OK lets say your correct that Christ only came to our world, why was our world so privileged to be the host world? The only thing most Christians seem to be able to agree on any more is that Christ did come, don't you think it would be that much harder for any other world to have to totally accept every thing on faith?

-LT04

[rosie321]

You guys are right It doesn't matter what could have been b/c Jesus just is The Christ.

But I do recall a contaversy I heard about between Jesus and Satan in the grand council When Jesus said send me I will bring home all the faithful and all the glory will go to you father, and Satan said send me father I will return with every one (via taking away free agency) and all glory will go to me.

Did I imagine this or is this in the PoGP? Correct-Book of Moses Chapter 4

-LT04

OK lets say your correct that Christ only came to our world, why was our world so privileged to be the host world? The only thing most Christians seem to be able to agree on any more is that Christ did come, don't you think it would be that much harder for any other world to have to totally accept every thing on faith?

Whos to say that the people on the other worlds are the same as the ones on ours? That they are able to learn in the different ways or have more faith? Christ was born, lived and died on another continent. He did visit this hemisphere many years ago but we have not seen him. Yet we believe. His cultural environment was much different than ours and what we are used to and yet we have come to believe it. So why is it impossible to think that others may not believe without seeing? Christ commented to Thomas after his resurrection blessed are those who have not seen but believe. These people may not need to have Christ on their planet to know that Christ lived and died.

Also think about General conference. Most members aren't present at conference but yet they still are able to get the message they need to get. Or the BOM as it has been translated into so many languages to reach the people. I don't think its improbable

-LT04

[LT04]

Does that make us the stubborn, red-headed step children of the cosmos not being able to have a solid belief in Christ unless he came in person to prove it?

If G-d made it a point to tell Moses we are made in his own image and likeness why would our counter-parts of other worlds be different then we are at all? I would hate to think I'm less capable of faith then our other heavenly brothers and sisters. Would this also mean b/c their world required them to be more faithful with less information then we have can they aspire to higher calling in the life after then we can?

-LT04

[rosie321]

Does that make us the stubborn, red-headed step children of the cosmos not being able to have a solid belief in Christ unless he came in person to prove it?

If G-d made it a point to tell Moses we are made in his own image and likeness. Why would our counter-parts of other worlds be different then we are at all? I would hate to think I'm less capable of faith then our other heavenly brothers and sisters. Would this also mean b/c their world required them to be more faithful with less information then we have can they aspire to higher calling in the life after then we can?

-LT04

Well they can all be of flesh and blood in the image and likeness of God. That doesn't mean they are incapable of being reached.

Maybe not so much differences from us but different needs to comprehend truth. God has different ways of reaching his children to make sure they understand what it is they need to know. Whether they are more faithful or not. I don't know. Whether it be different learning styles who knows.

We haven't seen Christ. We didn't live during His lifetime. He was on the earth right? We don't see either but we go on faith that he was here. How much farther of a strech is it really for them to comprehend that Christ was here? Maybe instead of having the saviour on their planet they were given a greater knowledge of our planet and whats going on in it? An illustration of this might be found within the LDS church. There are members of the church all over the world. Yet they know Utah and look to it. This is the center of the church. On the other hand if we were to ask Utah members about all the other countries and give them a quiz about the other countries and member information they probably wouldn't have a clue on many of them. So these other planets may know of earth because this is where Christ lived and died. Who knows maybe we are more advanced than the other planets?

Looking throughout church history God reached out in many different ways. For instance we don't see the extreme miracles taking place that happened in the Bible on a daily basis today but that doesn't mean it isn't possible. With God ALL things are POSSIBLE

[CrimsonKairos]

I see no reason why Jesus wouldn't visit any/all kingdoms/planets (D&C 88) with God's children living on them.

Perhaps he visited them after his resurrection on this planet. I would fully expect him to visit and establish his church among all people, lands and yes, even planets other than our own.

I don't get caught up in the, "Am I more valiant or more disobedient to have been born on this earth where Jesus lived? Do I need more proof and that's why I'm here as opposed to some far-flung planet in another galaxy?"

I think it's irrelevant. Christ sends eyewitnesses of his reality and divinity (apostles/prophets), and just as I believe that Joseph Smith saw God and Christ (even though I haven't seen them in a waking vision) peoples on other planets would surely be able to exercise as much faith in their prophets/apostles who would undoubtedly have seen Christ.

On another matter: What I meant by there being no question premortally about who the Savior would be, I meant in the mind of God there was no question. Satan couldn't possibly offer a perfect sacrifice since Jesus was the only perfect Son of God. Sure 1/3 of heaven believed false doctrine (all can be saved, none lost!) but Jesus ever was and ever will be the only Savior from death and hell that we need.