Gods And Goddesses

[CrimsonKairos]

Absolutely yes, a-train, but many of them have never thought of it like that and hence the knee-jerk reaction to reject the idea.

But Trinitarians may safely say that God was once a man, since Jesus is God.

[Dr T]

Hi A-train,

Thank you for the nice words. I really enjoy talking to you too. Clearly, you are a person that can have a respectful and civil converstation about fun topics like this one. :)

Second, Mormons actually believe God was/is/will be God 'from all eternity to all eternity'.

I don't quite understand if you are saying that in a relative way or an infinite way A-Train. I'm not sure if you are talking about the concept of "eternity" like Shade was, "From here on out" or always, as in, not progressing too, always perfect, omni everything, etc. or if you are talking about "He has always been God to us, as long as any human can remember, and forever forward." For me, it is not relative to creation, not about chronology/time, etc. it is an "I Am" for from always concept.

When you said that God "was/is/will be" I have a hard time squaring that with the concept of he had a god before him and he had a god before him ad infinitum. On another thread, here, I talked about my difficulty with eternal progression. Basically, I said, if at any time, God was not perfect, even for a split second, then God was not worthy of worship. If it took a progression to achieve perfection, that invalidates the idea that that being is perfect, because he isn't-because of the past he is flawed.

My understanding of the Tetragrammaton, the four available letter in the Hebrew language, without any vowels, but when they put the vowels in creates, Jehovah.

Does the average Joe Christian think that to say 'God was once a man', or that 'God once endured human life', is blasphemous?

Here we are getting into Christology. Yes, I would say that Jesus "took on human form." I also see that Jesus created all things (like I think I said above but I'm not sure if I did or not) before coming to Earth, to live, die, and have victory over death. The hypostatic union concept is vital to understanding this. Only Jesus took on a human nature, not the Father and not the Holy Spirit. God the Father cannot be the one, as you said, "'God was once a man', or that 'God once endured human life' but Jesus can fall into that category.

Blasphemy, possibly but heresy of the Christian church for sure.

I look forward to your thoughts and future discussions with you A-train :)

[Maureen]

Maureen,

I have read it, but perhaps (from the sound of your post) it isn't interpreted as I thought. Don't most of the believers in it take the part about Christ being 'of one Being with the Father' to mean they are the same Being?

Hi a-train,

Believers of the Trinity interpret it to mean that all three persons are distinct. The Father is the Father, the Son is the Son and the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit, they do not interchange their "person" with each other. But they are all one Divine Nature or Essense, they are God; individually or collectively. As the Athanasian Creed would describe "Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the substance."

Or is that just a common misinterpretation? Perhaps this Creed is not so One-in-Three-Three-in-One as I thought?

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,

who proceeds from the Father and the Son.

With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.

This part of the creed describes the One-in-Three-Three-in-One perfectly. Since God is the only being to be worshipped, this shows that all 3 persons are God.

What do Lutherans believe? Three Beings? One Being?

Lutherans believe in the Trinity; Three persons, One God.

I was talking about whether Jesus was Jehovah in my shop the other day and one very Christian friend of mine (Baptist) believed that the Trinity is all the same Being so Jehovah can be applied to all Three. Another man in my shop, a non-denominational minister ardently disagreed. While his postion was more difficult to be certain of, he at least didn't like the idea of Christ being Jehovah, but felt that Jehovah was a name for the Father only.

I would agee that all three persons of the Godhead are Jehovah since that is the name of God, and all three persons are God.

Perhaps after all this discussion, it might seem strange to say that Mormons believe in One True God. We simply believe that the One True God is three physically seperate Beings united in one Godhead. I have found many Christians actually agree with that, although that might be unorthodox (whatever that means).

There are certain distinctions. I prefer saying that the Father, Son and HS are three distinct persons as opposed to physical beings and sometimes LDS christians and non-LDS christians have different ideas about the word Godhead; I would have a difficult time putting that difference into words.

Is my thought unreasonable that if the Holy Trinity are only three personalities of a single Divine Being, then Jehovah once suffered the human condition as we are now?

What do Lutherans say?

Yes, I would agree with that statement because we believe that God became man to suffer and die for mankind.

M. :)

[CrimsonKairos]

Basically, I said, if at any time, God was not perfect, even for a split second, then God was not worthy of worship. If it took a progression to achieve perfection, that invalidates the idea that that being is perfect, because he isn't-because of the past he is flawed.

According to this, Dr. T, none of us can fulfill Jesus' command to "be perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect." I mean, even if through Jesus' grace we are forgiven of sin, and sanctified and partake of God's divine nature and become perfect in love, knowledge, attributes, etc... we'd never be truly "perfect" since we had at one time been flawed.

This is the whole point of the atonement of Christ...to erase the flawed record of sinners and make them perfect, like Christ, and worthy to return to God's presence.

I just have a hard time--personally--saying that if someone was once imperfect, then they are not worth being worshipped even if they are now perfect. I don't recall finding this standard taught in scripture, viz: "If not always perfect, unworthy of worship."

This part of the creed describes the One-in-Three-Three-in-One perfectly. Since God is the only being to be worshipped, this shows that all 3 persons are God.

But Jesus never taught us to pray to/worship the Holy Ghost or pray to himself, even.

[Maureen]

But Jesus never taught us to pray to/worship the Holy Ghost or pray to himself, even.

The prayer Jesus taught is a model prayer teaching us how we can have an initmate relationship with God. Using Father (Abba) makes our prayer and worship a very personal communication with God. There is nothing in scripture that commands us not to pray to Jesus or the Holy Spirit. If the Father, Son and HS are God, they are worthy of praise.

M.

[CrimsonKairos]

Maybe some people would feel closer to God praying to Jesus, or the Spirit. But Jesus didn't say to pray to him or the Spirit. He said pray to God the Father.

Being worthy of praise and praying to someone aren't the same thing in my mind. I praise my parents for raising me and being great Christians. But I don't pray to them.

I know we'll never agree Maureen...the Trinity belief is an insuperable barrier, it would seem, to mutual understanding. Whenever someone tries to explain it to me, talking about three separate persons making up one being via shared essence or substance...it always brings to mind the image of a colossal conjoined triplet. Just doesn't work for me.

But I like to bounce ideas back and forth anyway, I know you'll explain your views intelligently. B)

[Dr T]

Hi CK,

I love the sermon on the Mt. Jesus packed so much into it. I wondered about that verse when I first came across it. When I was looking into that verse, I found the word "perfect" or "complete" or as reaching a given limit as a rendering/understanding of that word. When he is talking about being perfect, he is not talking of degree of excellence but of kind of excellence. In that passage, read above about loving your enemy. We are to diligently pursue a godliness, constantly growing and learning. Then in comparison to us, he holds up the Father, who alone holds a "fullness" of perfection. As I've said, I agree God requires perfection, as in sinlessness, to enter his kingdom. From my experience, we try and but we fall short of perfection, we all fail. Thank God that it is not my actions however, that makes me perfect but Jesus' work for me that wipes away/covers my sins and makes me presentable to the Father or I would never be with God.

[a-train]

Lots of good comments here.

It sounds as though the Lutheran Trinity is no different from LDS belief. I looked up Trinity in a dictionary and saw something very interesting.

Dictionary.com says:

'Trin·i·ty

–noun, 1. Also called Blessed Trinity, Holy Trinity. the union of three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, or the threefold personality of the one Divine Being.'

Now look at that! There are TWO distinct definitions listed. The term is officially ambiguous. The one says that three persons are one Godhead, the other says that three personalities exist for One Divine Being. Through the years, different LDS leaders have either liked or disliked the term Trinity, I think for this reason.

LDS believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct 'personages' or Beings united in one Godhead. They therefore can collectively be called God in the singular (the term 'God' itself being ambiguous these days). Joseph Smith's use of the word 'personage' rather than 'person' showed a lot of thoughtfulness, as a personage is defined as a person of 'distinct importance'.

I think the vast majority of LDS believe that the rest of Chrisitianity outside the LDS Church teaches only the latter notion. We are so worried about pointing out the difference, that we are seen as polytheists. Add to that any notion that the Father has a father or that we 'are gods and children of the Most High' and we are perceived as far into the realm of polytheism. Then add the debate about any distinction between belief in the existance of more than one god and worship of more than one god and what a mess we are in.

Also, LDS can and do recognize that the Tetragrammaton can refer to the Father as well as the Son and for that matter the Holy Spirit. However, in order to avoid confusion, 'Jehovah' is used most often in indicating the Son. Joseph Smith pointed out that the Personage of the Godhead who created heaven and earth and spoke to the prophets of old was the Son, and only in extremely special circumstances has the Father been present. Essentially, LDS believe that Christ is doing all the work of this earth under the Father's direction and Authority. Christ is our Creator, Redeemer, and Judge.

Now, Dr. T has here made a distintion that only the Saviour Jesus Christ passed through the condition of manhood and the Father did not. Or that the Saviour's doing so did not constitute the Father having done so also. If I understand both of you (Maureen and Dr. T) correctly then, neither believe in multiple personalities for One Divine Being, but in three individual Beings unified in Godhood as God.

So if I understand this right, the only portion of LDS belief (with regard to the topic at hand) that would seem supplementary to the both of you is that the Father could have also previously endured the human condition. In other words, you would say that Christ only did so and there is no indication that the Father ever has or ever will. Correct me if I am wrong on anything here.

Now, My question: Because the Saviour's Godship was unharmed by his endurance of earthly life, wouldn't that mean that the Father could also do the same without any issue against His Godship? Could the Father have done just as Christ did retaining Godhood and perfection before, throughout, and after human condition? Could the Saviour's example to us portray the Father in this regard? 'He that hath seen me hath seen the Father.' (John 14:9)

Also, my bro. here, Crimson mentioned 'perfect'. Dr. T, haha, a footnote in the LDS edition of the Bible for the word 'perfect' in Matthew 5:48 says: 'GR complete, finished, fully developed' which demonstrates the original Greek meaning. You must be going to Sunday School.

This post is getting too long. I'll get back soon.

GOD BLESS

-a-train

[CrimsonKairos]

When he is talking about being perfect, he is not talking of degree of excellence but of kind of excellence.

Sounds like we're going to share both Christ's degree and kind of excellence if we are sanctified by him. Here is what Paul said is the point of Christ sending to men his apostles, prophets, etc...

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (Eph. 4:13)

To me, that's saying that Christ's goal is to help all of us reach the point of perfection that he has reached; we are to grow until we "measure up" to Christ's "full stature." I know this is mostly semantics, because I'm not saying we'll ever become equal to Christ in authority or dominion (though Rev. 3:21 is food for thought).

[Maureen]

Now, My question: Because the Saviour's Godship was unharmed by his endurance of earthly life, wouldn't that mean that the Father could also do the same without any issue against His Godship? Could the Father have done just as Christ did retaining Godhood and perfection before, throughout, and after human condition? Could the Saviour's example to us portray the Father in this regard? 'He that hath seen me hath seen the Father.' (John 14:9)

I believe God, all 3 persons, to be uncreated. God has always existed as God. It was only God the Son that became man. Not only did Jesus die for mankind but also part of his ministry was letting mankind know who God really is. It was Christ who introduced to mankind a God who was Fatherly. Someone we could have an intimate relationship with; a loving and caring God. Because all 3 persons of the Godhead are one, it was only necessary for Jesus to become man and make it possible for us to be reconciled with God the Father and sanctified through God the Holy Spirit.

M.

[Dr T]

Hi M,

Can you please tell me what you mean by

sanctified through God the Holy Spirit.

?

Thank you