Why we are leaving the LDS

[bytebear]

Oh, as far as the City Creek Mall, I think it was not only a wise investment, but a home run as well.

Recent articles about the fruits of that endeavor have been quite positive. This (originally NYTimes) article has been making the rounds to other outlets.

Mormon-built mall adds to city | HeraldTribune.com

"The center has added 2,000 jobs and brought more than 16 million visitors into downtown," according to the Economic Benchmark Report of 2013

The report also credits the mall with boosting downtown retail sales by 36 percent in 2012.

Interestingly enough, the idea of a mall is not that unusual. ZCMI was a church created co-op, and later became the first department store west of the Mississippi. The old ZCMI center mall (along with the Crossroads Mall) were replaced with this mall. They basically took two old "dead malls" and combined them into one big modern shopping center. This really has revitalized Downtown SLC. I just wish they would do something with Ogden now that they have redesigned the temple there.

[Mikedavis]

I don't know about the Church 'refusing to come clean.' I did a quick search on LDS.org and found 3 references to Mountain Meadows. I don't think the Church is hiding anything now.

I made a point of reading about Free Mason rituals and it is obvious that some of the rituals and markings come from Free Masonry. So what?.....

Hi Dehlia

Thank for replying. So if the rituals came from Free Masonry do thay have anything to do with covenants with the lord? What is the conection between the LDS and the Masons?

[bytebear]

Hi Dehlia

Thank for replying. So if the rituals came from Free Masonry do thay have anything to do with covenants with the lord? What is the conection between the LDS and the Masons?

The symbolism is just that. Symbolism. The covenants are literal, and nothing that you didn't covenant with in Baptism. In fact, the promises you make are essentially the same as the interview questions you have with your bishop.

[Mikedavis]

Again, how is church concealing anything? You haven't substantiated your claims, only provided anecdotes that may or may not be based in reality. And how does a random church member not having knowledge of something or having misinformation about something translate into the church being deceitful?

Hi Leah. If it was a "random church member" I would agree, but this was church missionaries. Do not the church say "ask the missionaries".

[Mikedavis]

The symbolism is just that. Symbolism. The covenants are literal, and nothing that you didn't covenant with in Baptism. In fact, the promises you make are essentially the same as the interview questions you have with your bishop.

Thank you for explaining that. I think some members feel I'm trying to cast doubt on aspects of our faith. I'm not. I just feel I have so much to learn and every day I feel I know less than I did the privious day. If that makes sence?

Have a good weekend :)

[Dark_Jedi]

Hi Dehlia

Thank for replying. So if the rituals came from Free Masonry do thay have anything to do with covenants with the lord? What is the conection between the LDS and the Masons?

I'd suggest you do some internet research on the subject. I'll just say that many of the early leaders of the church were Masons and that is the only connection that I am aware of. Be sure to include in your search the origins of Free Masonry. I do have my own belief as to why the symbolism, etc., is very similar to that of the Free Masons, but that would be the gospel according to me and I found it's usually best not to share that part of the gospel.

I recall way back when being told as you, if you have a question to ask the missionaries. A couple years after joining the church I was a missionary. I would modify that statement to if you have a question about basic gospel principles and beliefs of the church, ask the missionaries. Otherwise, it's best to do your own research or ask a senior member of the church who knows - you figure out who they are by attending meetings and listening to their comments. Frankly, 20-year-old kids know very little about the church history and more intricate doctrines and beliefs. I don't think they hid stuff from you on purpose, I think they were just ignorant. I do think the church could do better about coming clean and do less glossing over in some areas, but then again, nobody like airing their dirty laundry.

[john doe]

Hi Leah. If it was a "random church member" I would agree, but this was church missionaries. Do not the church say "ask the missionaries".

The typical missionary is an 18-22 year old young man with little life experience and little formal religious training other than weekly church meetings and possibly some early-morning seminary classes that he likely had a hard time staying awake through. His 'job' is to bring people to and testify of Christ, not to know every little scrap of church history. It's not his job to know or get into the minutiae of church doctrine or to conduct in-depth discussions of events not related to his 'job'. How much more do you know now than when you graduated high school? You're much better off asking long-time members of the church and local leaders who have taken the time to research for answers to these deeper questions. Quite honestly, they may never have been exposed to them before because they are not major points of the gospel of Christ, which is what they are out preaching. You joined the church for a reason, did you do it because the missionaries seemed like world scholars? Or did you do it because you felt the promptings of the Spirit testifying to you that what they were saying was true?

[skippy740]

Hi Leah. If it was a "random church member" I would agree, but this was church missionaries. Do not the church say "ask the missionaries".

There is nothing in this general conference address that says "Ask the missionaries... they're experts in church history!"

Ask the Missionaries! They Can Help You! - general-conference=

[Guest]

Much of Masonry is derived from symbolism and ritualism of Solomon's temple. So is the symbolism and ritual we participate in in our temples. That's the only tie I know of.

[bytebear]

Symbols are used and reused and reused throughout culture and time. The Eye of Providence or All Seeing Eye of God is a good example. It was used in ancient Egypt and is on the US one dollar bill. It's also on the Salt Lake Temple. The meaning varies, but is very ancient, and far precedes Mormonism. I believe that to be true of Freemason symbols as well.

Some may say, well that symbol is evil. Well, symbols can be both good and evil. The serpent was a symbol of Satan (Gen 3) and of Christ (Num 21).

[NeuroTypical]

A point I wanted to make: There's a lot of talk about "the Church" teaching this or that, or claiming this or that. Just wanted to point out that "the Church" isn't a person. It doesn't have desires or likes or loves. When people talk about "the church" in vague terms, they're either referring to it's members (like me, and just about everyone else on this thread), or it's leadership.

It's a helpful distinction to think about when you find yourself saying "they" or "the church". Who? Members? Leadership?

A point of criticism I often hear, is that the church (by which they mainly mean the leadership) has "hidden the truth" or "keeps us from knowing things". This is false. We don't live in some compound. Our minds, thoughts, and destinies are not controlled by the church. You want to know what you don't know? Go read and learn. It makes no sense to blame people you don't know, for not telling you what you didn't even know you wanted to know. Or to see your own lack of knowledge, as the result of some conspiracy from some nebulous, faceless, "they".

If you want to know what the church has to say about something, search lds.org. For example, see what's been said about the Mountain Meadows Massacre. There's a pretty large article about it published in 2007 - but mormons will only know about it if they've read the article and remember it. If you want to know what individual mormons have to say, ask them or read what they've published. But it seems silly to take one mormon's ignorance (or even lots and lots of mormons' ignorance) as some sort of intentional effort to keep the truth from being heard.

[panacea]

Interesting from deseret about the symbolism of the Salt Lake Temple