Repentance and plea bargaining

[Sadsister]

******

Edited September 22, 2013 by Sadsister

[Guest]

Plea bargaining is not quite tied to Repentance just like you can spend Life in Prison without Parole and still be unrepentant. One is spiritual, the other temporal. It can be argued that prison is not a good venue for repentance due to the immersion into the darkness of that environment. Spending life at a monastery would serve a better venue for spiritual healing.

Edited September 19, 2013 by anatess

[Dravin]

Is there a talk or anything that shows that?

Not to my knowledge. On a personal level, while I can see some end-member arguments concerning the issue I don't see any issue with the concept of plea bargaining in general. Conceptually he's being cut slack for being willing to cooperate with the authorities rather than requiring them to convict him kicking and screaming (and potentially failing to convict him).

Edited September 19, 2013 by Dravin

[Sadsister]

Thanks for the perspectives. I look forward to more. My worry is that if one continues to bargain down one's sentence, he/she is lessening his or her actual crime or ability to pay restitution.

[estradling75]

Repentance and the legal process are not the same.

He committed a crime and he is working with what the legal systems allows for that crime.

He committed a sin and (hopefully) he is working with the system Christ set up for repentance.

While the action he did was both a sin and a crime the resolutions for each are handled differently

[Guest]

Thanks for the perspectives. I look forward to more. My worry is that if one continues to bargain down one's sentence, he/she is lessening his or her actual crime or ability to pay restitution.

Okay, is your question then more about the flaws of the legal system and not really spiritual healing?

[Just_A_Guy]

FWIW, having done some defense work: Prison and fines are up for negotiation. Restitution? Not so much, except in the very rare situation where the restitution claim is obviously bogus or inflated. For example, we had a minor male who was in a sexual relationship with another minor, and it continued after his 18th birthday, and all of a sudden the victim's parents wanted all kinds of counseling costs for their little princess. But the family had MAJOR unrelated baggage (two brothers had recently attempted suicide) and so my guy (though guilty) was obviously being asked to subsidize this family's larger, and pre-existing issues. We fought that one--but it's extremely, extremely rare. Generally speaking the numbers for restitution are what they are, and all the defendant can do is pony up.

As for the length of the process--when I negotiate a plea deal, it's frequently a multi-month ordeal and the defendant is generally not very involved. If anything, I tend to negotiate a little harder when the defendant seems more cooperative or penitent. Because frankly, there are prosecutors out to make a name for themselves by getting harsh sentences; and the "good" defendants are often the ones who get steamrolled in those kinds of situations.

In short: you can probably blame the lawyers, not the defendant, for the delay here.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Just_A_Guy

[Dravin]

FWIW, having done some defense work: Prison and fines are up for negotiation. Restitution?

I'm half wondering if the OP is drawing a connection between jail/prison time and restitution. The ability to make restitution is being mentioned, and while unlikely, nothing prevents him from paying for therapy in the absence of a legal obligation to do so.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Dravin

[Guest]

I'm half wondering if the OP is drawing a connection between jail time and restitution. The ability to make restitution is being mentioned, and while unlikely, nothing prevents him from paying for therapy in the absence of a legal obligation to do so.

Yeah, I'm confused too. Because, I think she's tying jail time to restitution to worthiness. That is, the jail-time is needed to fulfill the restitution requirement of repentance.

[Dravin]

Yeah, I'm confused too. Because, I think she's tying jail time to restitution to worthiness. That is, the jail-time is needed to fulfill the restitution requirement of repentance.

That is the impression I'm getting. To be fair the idea of jail time as restitution isn't completely unknown, thus the phrase, "Paid his debt to society." when referencing someone getting out of jail.

[Sadsister]

FWIW, having done some defense work: Prison and fines are up for negotiation. Restitution? Not so much, except in the very rare situation where the restitution claim is obviously bogus or inflated. For example, we had a minor male who was in a sexual relationship with another minor, and it continued after his 18th birthday, and all of a sudden the victim's parents wanted all kinds of counseling costs for their little princess. But the family had MAJOR unrelated baggage (two brothers had recently attempted suicide) and so my guy (though guilty) was obviously being asked to subsidize this family's larger, and pre-existing issues. We fought that one--but it's extremely, extremely rare. Generally speaking the numbers for restitution are what they are, and all the defendant can do is pony up.

As for the length of the process--when I negotiate a plea deal, it's frequently a multi-month ordeal and the defendant is generally not very involved. If anything, I tend to negotiate a little harder when the defendant seems more cooperative or penitent. Because frankly, there are prosecutors out to make a name for themselves by getting harsh sentences; and the "good" defendants are often the ones who get steamrolled in those kinds of situations.

In short: you can probably blame the lawyers, not the defendant, for the delay here.

Thanks for that perspective. I had no idea the defendant is involved so little.

[Sadsister]

I'm half wondering if the OP is drawing a connection between jail/prison time and restitution. The ability to make restitution is being mentioned, and while unlikely, nothing prevents him from paying for therapy in the absence of a legal obligation to do so.

*****

Edited September 22, 2013 by Sadsister

[Just_A_Guy]

I am, but I mean restitution spiritually....not monetarily. No money is being sought. We thought the defendant was seeking a plea bargain as a way to cheapen what he did/not wanting to pay the time for his crime. It seems that he may not have as much say as I thought (though, he did call and ask mybalrents' advice in whether to accept or not).

I hope that makes more sense.

FWIW, the notion of a "debt to society" comes under a theory called "retributive justice" (as opposed to the other philosophical justifications for legal punishment: rehabilitation--can we fix the perpetrator?; incapacitation--can we physically restrain him from doing it again?; or deterrence--can we make an example of this guy for the next would-be offender who comes along?).

There's a HUGE body of work out there about the underpinnings and applications of retributive theory. It's not usually as simple as "Crime x = 1 year, Crime y = 5 years". That's why lawyers - and yes, even judges - hate mandatory minimum sentences so much. They might make the voters sleep better at night and thus earn votes for politicians; but they can be a deeply flawed mechanism of administering justice.

[Guest]

I am, but I mean restitution spiritually....not monetarily. No money is being sought by the victim's family. Sorry for not being more specific.

We are looking at spiritual restitution for what he did, as a way to be sure he gets continued counseling (only available in jail, we are told) and just show that he really is sorry for what he did. We thought the plea bargain was being sought by him, and it felt like a slap in the face. "Sorry, I did it....but I only want to be punished for 25% of what I avpctually did."

It seems that he may not have as much say as I thought (though, he did call and ask my parents'' advice on whether to accept or not).

I hope that makes more sense.

I would look into what the bishop deems is necessary for restitution in this case than what the justice system has in store for him.

[Dravin]

I am, but I mean restitution spiritually....not monetarily. No money is being sought by the victim's family. Sorry for not being more specific.

Can you explain spiritual restitution? The concept of restitution is to right the wrong one has done, to restore someone to the state they were before they were wronged or the closest approximation available. So how does he spiritually restore his victim? And how is he unable to do this if he accepts the plea bargain verses not accepting the plea bargain?

We are looking at spiritual restitution for what he did, as a way to be sure he gets continued counseling (only available in jail, we are told) and just show that he really is sorry for what he did.

Counseling may be important for his repentance (D&C 58:43, namely in helping him forsake) but that's a separate thing from restitution. How does his receiving counseling restore her, or attempt to restore her, to the pre-crime state? Additionally, I'm highly skeptical that the only place counseling is available for sexual offenders is within jail/prison. It may be made available (or even mandatory) for him in jail, but that's not the same thing as it only being available in jail.

We thought the plea bargain was being sought by him, and it felt like a slap in the face. "Sorry, I did it....but I only want to be punished for 25% of what I avpctually did."

Here you switch from the concept of restitution to punishment, these are not synonymous concepts. Based on your responses in this thread it sounds like your concern is he won't be punished commiserate with his crime, that is certainly an argument that can be made but I'm not sure it can be made under the idea of restitution, or that it will, assuming he's being truthful about his actions, prevent him from repenting.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Dravin

[ACommonMan]

So sorry to hear your family is going through such terrible experience, SadSister.

As others have pointed out, legal punishment has no direct correlation to one's worthiness or ability to make restitution. One could even argue that locking someone away prevents their ability to perform the acts of service and other restitution needed for spiritual repentance.

Certainly it's hard to hear the perpetrator of such a damaging act say things similar to, "Sure, I did X, but I never did Y, so I'm not that bad." It is possible that he's saying that because he doesn't appreciate the severity of what he's done, but it's more likely he's parsing the technicalities of the law so he can maintain his employment (and presumably pay his brand new alimony payments).

One of the most difficult things to do is follow the Lord's counsel on forgiving and not judging. The anger you all, rightfully, feel towards him is a cancer that spread and cause your worthiness to come into question. You really need to keep that in check. Trust his Bishop to sort out the details of his standing in the church.

You and your sister-in-law must focus on moving past this for yourselves. Don't blame yourselves or others. It's his fault. No one held a gun to his head, not his wife, not the porn industry, and not a chemical imbalance. Ultimately, he made the choice to act. he needs to own that and you need to let him.

(Side note for those interested in my advice for him, particularly on that last comment: There were probably contributing factors, or triggers, which led you down the path of making bad decisions. You need to come to terms with what those were so you can avoid them in the future. The decision was yours and you cannot escape that. However, It's easier to make the right decisions when you are prepared to stop yourself at the top of the hill instead of falling half way down first.)

[ACommonMan]

... a way to be sure he gets continued counseling (only available in jail, we are told) ...

Um.. no.

Counselling is available everywhere. Just how available it is in your area depends on his ability to pay the hourly rate and the Bishop's willingness to provide financial support for it. In most of the western US, there is usually a LDS Addiction Recovery meeting nearby that has been a great help to a lot of brethren, and sisters. There's more than a half dozen weekly meetings, for pornography and sexual addictions, in the northern half of Utah County alone.

Finding help is easy once you stand up and take a look.

[Sadsister]

ACM, thank you for your very kind words. I truly appreciate them. I am doing a poor job of explaining myself, I fear. I do feel that willingness to accept full punishment/consequences has a lot to do with repentance, but I see I am in the minority. It is not just a matter of wanting him to be punished, though I understand how it seems that way. I really am worried about this. I know it is not my job, but he is still my little brother, and I was hoping to help. I see I may be wrong about the connection, but I will not know, for sure, until I cross the veil. :) Either way, I have decided to stop worrying about it, since I see now I am in the minority and doubt I could change his mind.

[Sadsister]

Um.. no.

Counselling is available everywhere. Just how available it is in your area depends on his ability to pay the hourly rate and the Bishop's willingness to provide financial support for it. In most of the western US, there is usually a LDS Addiction Recovery meeting nearby that has been a great help to a lot of brethren, and sisters. There's more than a half dozen weekly meetings, for pornography and sexual addictions, in the northern half of Utah County alone.

Finding help is easy once you stand up and take a look.

Thanks. I had no idea. That is what my brother said....maybe he did not know, either....or, he never looked until now.