The Dark Side

[Traveler]

From time to time there are things in doctrine that just do not make sense to me. Perhaps the doctrine of most difficulty to me is intelligent beings (aka – Lucifer and his followers) choosing the dark side. Before anyone gets sidetracked – my issue is not if there is a dark side or that agency would allow someone to choose the dark side. I got that – I understand that the possibility must exist. My problem lies in that I just cannot come to grips with a reasonable intelligent person choosing the dark side.

It seems obvious to me that someone choosing the dark side is doing so because to them something is missing. They are acting opposite of intelligence. Thus the only reason they make a dark choice is because something is left out of consideration. The only reason to live a lie with something left out is either ignorance of it or the false idea that it was not important. And since whatever was left out is critical to the eternal outcome; the time must come to realize that the dark side is not beneficial. Thus once the eternal outcome is realized there would have to be regret and desire to change the eternal outcome. Desire to change eternal outcome by definition is a change of mind and the very essence or repentance.

Changing the inevitable outcome is the whole purpose of the atonement of Christ.

So my paradox is – why should any intelligent being be trapped (damned) by the dark side for all eternity?

The Traveler

[Windseeker]

I found this talk by Theodore M. Buron where he asks the same thing. I'm not sure if I'm completely satisfied by his answer but I found it interesting.

Light and Truth by Theodore M. Burton

I have since wondered how anyone could knowingly prefer to live where it is dark and cold. How could anybody willingly prefer darkness and misery over light and warmth? Yet darkness, cold, and misery will be the lot of those who willingly and knowingly reject the Lord. John wrote, “God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.” (1 Jn. 1:5.)

God referred .. to the “hidden treasures” of knowledge (see D&C 89:19), which, in my opinion, constitute an eternal treasure, which if used will bring us back into the warmth and light of God. Those who sit in outer darkness, in the cold and misery of that existence, can never know such comfort.

Let me come back, then, to absolute zero, where, theoretically, there is no heat at all. It appears to me that Satan and those who follow him are on the road to losing whatever degree of light and truth they have and are approaching a similar limit of darkness and cold where all joy and happiness cease.

My thoughts.

In D&C 93:27-36 we read

And no man receiveth a fulness unless he keepeth his commandments. He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things. Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence. Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light. And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation. For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy. The elements are the tabernacle of God; yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even temples; and whatsoever temple is defiled, God shall destroy that temple.The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth.

C.S. Lewis described his state when he was an Athiest -

“My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?”

All intelligent creatures are affected by the Light of Christ (whether they know it or not). Perhaps Outer Darkness is a spiritual state where a being can simply no longer be influenced and therefore becomes unreachable by the light.

D&C 93:39

And that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through disobedience, from the children of men, and because of the tradition of their fathers.

Bruce R McConkie

Knowledge can be obtained and used in unrighteousness; Satan gains his power on this principle. But intelligence presupposes the wise and proper use of knowledge, a use that leads to righteousness and the ultimate attainment of exaltation. The devil has tremendous power and influence because of his knowledge, but he is entirely devoid of the least glimmering of intelligence. An intelligent person is one who applies his knowledge so as to progress in the things of the Spirit; he glories in righteousness. (Way to Perfection, pp. 225-231.) "Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come. (D. & C. 130:18-19.)

So perhaps the answer to your question is, no intelligent being be will be in outer darkness.

[McLainDow]

I heard Terryl Givens say something very interesting about the people who chose to side with Lucifer. He talked about how maybe they couldn't sign up to go to a place with so much suffering and injustice. Id say that is an intelligent (though not one that I agree with) reason to side with Lucifer's plan.

[Praetorian_Brow]

I wonder if what we know of the origins of good and evil, are too simplistic, too naive and not informed at all, as no doubt the circumstances as described are far more complex.

If we supposedly knew everything before the veil, how is that the two chosen leaders that spoke for us and we decided sides, didn't understand the outcome of their decisions. I sometimes ask myself, what an interesting role to accept the blame of countless people for everything negative and knowingly become a scapegoat.

Then again, its far easier to blame someone else for our poor decisions that we have made in life. I cannot stand when people at church start speaking as if Satan made them make poor choices and something good happened, its immediately God planning their life for them. Sort of ironic to side with Jesus when he gave us a choice, but then take it away again from ourselves by blaming someone else.

If Satan is as dark as we think he is, as manipulative as we give him credit for, how is that he would he accept the loathing of countless people and Jesus accept the adoration of so many. I would think they would have talked about it between the two of them.

I think we just simplify our notions of good and evil for the sake of illustration, when both concepts are required in order to succeed and learn in life.

[Windseeker]

I think we just simplify our notions of good and evil for the sake of illustration, when both concepts are required in order to succeed and learn in life.

I absolutely agree that both are necessary for us to succeed and to learn. Without both "Character" does not exist.

But, How do you feel we oversimplify good and evil and how does that conflict with its necessity?

I have never heard "The devil made me do it" ....ever anywhere in an LDS environment. So where do you get that he get's blamed for our poor decisions?

Edited October 30, 2013 by Windseeker

[Seminarysnoozer]

From time to time there are things in doctrine that just do not make sense to me. Perhaps the doctrine of most difficulty to me is intelligent beings (aka – Lucifer and his followers) choosing the dark side. Before anyone gets sidetracked – my issue is not if there is a dark side or that agency would allow someone to choose the dark side. I got that – I understand that the possibility must exist. My problem lies in that I just cannot come to grips with a reasonable intelligent person choosing the dark side.

It seems obvious to me that someone choosing the dark side is doing so because to them something is missing. They are acting opposite of intelligence. Thus the only reason they make a dark choice is because something is left out of consideration. The only reason to live a lie with something left out is either ignorance of it or the false idea that it was not important. And since whatever was left out is critical to the eternal outcome; the time must come to realize that the dark side is not beneficial. Thus once the eternal outcome is realized there would have to be regret and desire to change the eternal outcome. Desire to change eternal outcome by definition is a change of mind and the very essence or repentance.

Changing the inevitable outcome is the whole purpose of the atonement of Christ.

So my paradox is – why should any intelligent being be trapped (damned) by the dark side for all eternity?

The Traveler

Because it is their nature that is damming.

Agency reveals traits. It reveals one's true nature. This is why the desire of the heart is so important.

What is the difference between "ignorance" versus living by faith? We are told that in the pre-mortal world the noble and great ones showed exceptional faith. Our passing the first estate test was based in faith.

I think the gnashing and wailing is a sense of realization of what was done. There are some aspects of our nature that we cannot change. For example, can a female spirit change their nature to a male spirit?

[Traveler]

I am not sure that I have communicated my point. We all know that there is a choice and that we have complete power over that choice and thus we are 100% copable and responsible. The only way that I can understand that we are indeed 100% copable and responsible is if we know 100% what it is we are choosing. Seminary suggested that we make a choice by faith or ignorance - There is a problem and that is a choice without 100% knowledge (rather than faith or ignorance) cannot justly and honestly assign 100% copability and responsible on the individual that lacks knowledge of what they are doing.

If a choice is made by the desire of our hearts then there would never in all of eternity be any reason for the slightest regret for the choice me have made and no reason to rethink or revisit the choice but with affirmation that nothing should be changed - especially considering the outcome. This is what bothers me.

In mathematics we obtain a answer. Not an answer that is the desire of our heart but the answer and the only answer that is intelligently possible. The only way to get a wrong answer is to leave something out of our determination (calculation)

We know from the revelations of the restoration that the result is the result of the beginning. We also know that by following the path that the plan outlines that Celestial outcome is inevitable and that there is no other possibility. Therefore if any being has the desire and the intelligence to start what is it that would change the desire of their heart to change what was started?

Bottom line - for all that is given us to understand - Lucifer makes no sense to me. There has to be a piece of this puzzle that is missing - and that bothers me. Not so much that there is a piece missing from the puzzle but that I seem to be the only one to have figured that out - I do not know how anyone that has considered the doctrine of Satan having any role in theology (LDS or otherwise) think for a moment they know the truth of it. It has been my experience that without exception each effort to find any joy in deviating from G-d and goodness has ended in regret and a desire to redo or have a do over and get it right - nothing else makes sense. For sure - it is not for the lack of trying.

The Traveler

Edited October 31, 2013 by Traveler

[HiJolly]

If a choice is made by the desire of our hearts then there would never in all of eternity be any reason for the slightest regret for the choice me have made and no reason to rethink or revisit the choice but with affirmation that nothing should be changed - especially considering the outcome. This is what bothers me.

The Traveler

I think that bothers you for a very good reason -- you're wrong about it. Not everyone's hearts are true. Psalm 24:4

I think Lucifer is scared out of his wits concerning the risk and finality of a mortal 2nd estate. He has trust issues.

[Traveler]

I think that bothers you for a very good reason -- you're wrong about it. Not everyone's hearts are true. Psalm 24:4

I think Lucifer is scared out of his wits concerning the risk and finality of a mortal 2nd estate. He has trust issues.

Thanks for your response - if you do not mind some questions?

Why is anyone's heart not true? Is it because they do not understand something - if that is the reason why doesn't G-d let them see what they have not taken into consideration? Is it possible that is exactly what is going on in our life experience?

Why do you think Lucifer is scared out of his wits concerning the risk of mortality? What do you think he knows that those that are not scared were not told? If he was wrong about being scared - why did not anyone (ie - G-d) tell him the truth? Is Lucifer deceived? or does he not know the truth? If he really does not know what is going on - is it just he is condemned forever for what he does not understand? He must know exactly what he is doing - and if that is the case - why is he doing it? It just does not make sense.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Thanks for your response - if you do not mind some questions?

Why is anyone's heart not true? Is it because they do not understand something - if that is the reason why doesn't G-d let them see what they have not taken into consideration? Is it possible that is exactly what is going on in our life experience?

Why do you think Lucifer is scared out of his wits concerning the risk of mortality? What do you think he knows that those that are not scared were not told? If he was wrong about being scared - why did not anyone (ie - G-d) tell him the truth? Is Lucifer deceived? or does he not know the truth? If he really does not know what is going on - is it just he is condemned forever for what he does not understand? He must know exactly what he is doing - and if that is the case - why is he doing it? It just does not make sense.

The Traveler

I thought that was the answer I gave ... our true nature.

Anyways, he is condemned forever based in his limited ability to have the characteristics it takes to receive glory. Faith in God, love of God and our fellow man are basic prerequisite characteristics that are revealed when given agency and stewardship. God knows where the line is drawn. We do not have the full list of what all those characteristics are but when they are revealed and made known based in specific choices and the reasons behind making the choices then God can determine that the person has no potential to progress further than that certain point irregardless of their level of understanding.

If I don't want to become a doctor it wouldn't matter whether I understood the pre-med material well enough to do well on the MCAT or not. If I wanted to be a doctor but not live the lifestyle of a doctor then, in essence, I am saying that I don't want to be a doctor. Even if I ace'd the MCAT, if I expressed some characteristic that suggested I would be a horrible doctor, like if I said something like 'I love to watch people suffer', there is no Medical School that would take me.

Likewise, the intelligence and aptitude is only one part of deciding the cut off between moving forward or not. The bigger part of the cut off seems to be whether a person loves God with all their heart, might, mind and strength and loves their fellow being as their self. It is based in traits.

To me the bigger question related to this is whether God really has any control or input to our basic traits. I think He doesn't, we were intelligences before and our make up was established. There may be some molding and development across a certain range but there may be certain spirits that can't get past a certain point no matter how much instruction because that is who they are. The devil was the devil from the beginning. God still needs to go through the motions to reveal those traits due to laws of justice etc.

[drham3rd]

Think back to the history of the Israelites and Nephites and Lamanites. What was the common descriptor of God's people when they faltered and turned away..."pride and stiff-necked". I think that Satan lost because of his pride and stiff-neckness in his relationship to the Father! So, the lack of humility is what generated the "dark side". When satan lost, he decided that he would try to disrupt God's plan because he basically got pissed at loosing! That is what a lack of humility does to one.

[Durzan]

I thought that was the answer I gave ... our true nature.

Anyways, he is condemned forever based in his limited ability to have the characteristics it takes to receive glory. Faith in God, love of God and our fellow man are basic prerequisite characteristics that are revealed when given agency and stewardship. God knows where the line is drawn. We do not have the full list of what all those characteristics are but when they are revealed and made known based in specific choices and the reasons behind making the choices then God can determine that the person has no potential to progress further than that certain point irregardless of their level of understanding.

If I don't want to become a doctor it wouldn't matter whether I understood the pre-med material well enough to do well on the MCAT or not. If I wanted to be a doctor but not live the lifestyle of a doctor then, in essence, I am saying that I don't want to be a doctor. Even if I ace'd the MCAT, if I expressed some characteristic that suggested I would be a horrible doctor, like if I said something like 'I love to watch people suffer', there is no Medical School that would take me.

Likewise, the intelligence and aptitude is only one part of deciding the cut off between moving forward or not. The bigger part of the cut off seems to be whether a person loves God with all their heart, might, mind and strength and loves their fellow being as their self. It is based in traits.

To me the bigger question related to this is whether God really has any control or input to our basic traits. I think He doesn't, we were intelligences before and our make up was established. There may be some molding and development across a certain range but there may be certain spirits that can't get past a certain point no matter how much instruction because that is who they are. The devil was the devil from the beginning. God still needs to go through the motions to reveal those traits due to laws of justice etc.

Since we existed as intelligence's for eternity, what exactly did Lucifer do that caused such pride and stiff neckedness to become "part of his nature"?

Even then, there still seems to be a piece of the puzzle missing. The whole "its your nature" thing is something that is built upon in time. We can't just have been what we are, the way I see it. We are constantly changing, and always have been. Over time the actions that you choose become ingrained in you to the point that it is almost impossible to change. Nothing is EVER impossible to change, I don't think... it is like an asymptote. you can approach near 100% to the point where it practically is 100% (99.9999999999999999999999999999...%), but you cannot ever achieve 100%. Thus, the reason why it is "impossible" to change your nature. It has become a part of you to the point of being ingrained into your personality.

[Traveler]

Since we existed as intelligence's for eternity, what exactly did Lucifer do that caused such pride and stiff neckedness to become "part of his nature"?

Even then, there still seems to be a piece of the puzzle missing. The whole "its your nature" thing is something that is built upon in time. We can't just have been what we are, the way I see it. We are constantly changing, and always have been. Over time the actions that you choose become ingrained in you to the point that it is almost impossible to change. Nothing is EVER impossible to change, I don't think... it is like an asymptote. you can approach near 100% to the point where it practically is 100% (99.9999999999999999999999999999...%), but you cannot ever achieve 100%. Thus, the reason why it is "impossible" to change your nature. It has become a part of you to the point of being ingrained into your personality.

I am inclined to agree somewhat - That any creature has a nature to be stupid? If you think about it - the reason to change is because you have new information (usually from outcome of experience) that something in one's behavior produces inferior results. It is like asking someone if they would like a job where they work 10 hours a week and earn 15 million a year or a job where they work 15 hours a day, 7 days a week and earn $5,000 a year? And someone says that they want the $5,000 a year deal because it is their nature - or pride or whatever??? Fine; then such nature or whatever does not make any sense. To make such a obvious stupid choice - my only conclusion is that they are considering something that I just do not see - and that something that has my curiosity.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Think back to the history of the Israelites and Nephites and Lamanites. What was the common descriptor of God's people when they faltered and turned away..."pride and stiff-necked". I think that Satan lost because of his pride and stiff-neckness in his relationship to the Father! So, the lack of humility is what generated the "dark side". When satan lost, he decided that he would try to disrupt God's plan because he basically got pissed at loosing! That is what a lack of humility does to one.

Lets say it is because a pride. But would not well informed pride drive a person to the Celestial Kingdom rather than outer darkness? The key here is the phrase "well informed". I keep coming back to the notion that the only reason to choose the dark side because of lack of understanding. That bad choices come from something missing in the decision making.

When you think about it pride is in itself a false notion lacking basic elements of truth.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

I thought that was the answer I gave ... our true nature.

Anyways, he is condemned forever based in his limited ability to have the characteristics it takes to receive glory. Faith in God, love of God and our fellow man are basic prerequisite characteristics that are revealed when given agency and stewardship. God knows where the line is drawn. We do not have the full list of what all those characteristics are but when they are revealed and made known based in specific choices and the reasons behind making the choices then God can determine that the person has no potential to progress further than that certain point irregardless of their level of understanding.

If I don't want to become a doctor it wouldn't matter whether I understood the pre-med material well enough to do well on the MCAT or not. If I wanted to be a doctor but not live the lifestyle of a doctor then, in essence, I am saying that I don't want to be a doctor. Even if I ace'd the MCAT, if I expressed some characteristic that suggested I would be a horrible doctor, like if I said something like 'I love to watch people suffer', there is no Medical School that would take me.

Likewise, the intelligence and aptitude is only one part of deciding the cut off between moving forward or not. The bigger part of the cut off seems to be whether a person loves God with all their heart, might, mind and strength and loves their fellow being as their self. It is based in traits.

To me the bigger question related to this is whether God really has any control or input to our basic traits. I think He doesn't, we were intelligences before and our make up was established. There may be some molding and development across a certain range but there may be certain spirits that can't get past a certain point no matter how much instruction because that is who they are. The devil was the devil from the beginning. God still needs to go through the motions to reveal those traits due to laws of justice etc.

Assuming nature - I do not understand what nature turns away from light. We are told that Satan is miserable - what kind of nature spends all its energy for an eternity trying to be miserable? How can the desire of any heart be to find misery? And how can such nature be miserable rather than happy to achieve what it desires most. Really?

The Traveler

[Anddenex]

So my paradox is – why should any intelligent being be trapped (damned) by the dark side for all eternity?

Law. Opposition. Agency. Are the three reasons why a soul, an intelligent being, would be ( damned ) for all eternity.

We know there are laws which are irrevocably decreed before the foundations of this world, of any world, by which blessings/damnation are founded; otherwise, righteousness could not be brought to pass.

Righteousness, is a result of opposition as we are enticed by truth vs error accompanied by the ability to choose either without interference -- Independent thought. We are able to have our own goals, our own thoughts, our own ambitions, even if they are in opposition of the plan of happiness.

Satan broke a law, an eternal law, that irrevocably decreed an eternity to recognize his want. He weeps, he wails, and he gnashes his teeth having a perfect knowledge of his fate.

Our earth life gives evidence to people who have a perfect understanding of the law and yet still break it.

[Traveler]

Law. Opposition. Agency. Are the three reasons why a soul, an intelligent being, would be ( damned ) for all eternity.

We know there are laws which are irrevocably decreed before the foundations of this world, of any world, by which blessings/damnation are founded; otherwise, righteousness could not be brought to pass.

Righteousness, is a result of opposition as we are enticed by truth vs error accompanied by the ability to choose either without interference -- Independent thought. We are able to have our own goals, our own thoughts, our own ambitions, even if they are in opposition of the plan of happiness.

Satan broke a law, an eternal law, that irrevocably decreed an eternity to recognize his want. He weeps, he wails, and he gnashes his teeth having a perfect knowledge of his fate.

Our earth life gives evidence to people who have a perfect understanding of the law and yet still break it.

I am sorry - I respect what you are trying to say - except I just cannot make any sense of it. If Satan had a perfect knowledge of his fate when he made the choice of darkness - why would he be weeping, wailing and gnashing his teeth? - If it was not exactly what he wanted I do not understand why he would choose it and if it is what he wanted so badly why would there be any disappointment - let alone the weeping and such?

Can you give an example of someone - anyone - in this earth live that has perfect knowledge and makes the worst possible and most stupid choice that could be made based on that perfect knowledge? To me the right choice is inevitable with knowledge - and I cannot think of an exception - unless something is seriously screwed up very badly in their thinking - and they have no clue how badly it is going to turn out. And if that is the case - why are they stuck with what they really do not want. I cannot imagine a G-d that looks upon his suffering child is a state and condition that they do not want and there is no way to end the suffering. I have faith that suffering ends for all that suffer - that is the very purpose of an infinite atonement.

The Traveler

Edited November 1, 2013 by Traveler

[Durzan]

I am sorry - I respect what you are trying to say - except I just cannot make any sense of it. If Satan had a perfect knowledge of his fate when he made the choice of darkness - why would he be weeping, wailing and gnashing his teeth? - If it was not exactly what he wanted I do not understand why he would choose it and if it is what he wanted so badly why would there be any disappointment - let alone the weeping and such?

Can you give an example of someone - anyone - in this earth live that has perfect knowledge and makes the worst possible and most stupid choice that could be made based on that perfect knowledge? To me the right choice is inevitable with knowledge - and I cannot think of an exception - unless something is seriously screwed up very badly in their thinking - and they have no clue how badly it is going to turn out. And if that is the case - why are they stuck with what they really do not want. I cannot imagine a G-d that looks upon his suffering child is a state and condition that they do not want and there is no way to end the suffering. I have faith that suffering ends for all that suffer - that is the very purpose of an infinite atonement.

The Traveler

Maybe he regrets what he did, but didn't when he rebelled against God? After all, be careful what you wish for.

[Speakzeasy]

If Satan had a perfect knowledge of his fate when he made the choice of darkness - why would he be weeping, wailing and gnashing his teeth? - If it was not exactly what he wanted I do not understand why he would choose it and if it is what he wanted so badly why would there be any disappointment - let alone the weeping and such?

I am not certain that it was so much the out come that Lucifer wanted, as it was the out come of what it was that he desired to accomplish. His motivation to be "the Christ" and raise himself equal to or above the status of the Christ without proper authority (inheriting from G_d, the Father, that which was given to Jesus), would have changed the entire purpose for which the earth was created.

Lucifer must have understood that he was attempting to challenge the legitimate heir (Jesus) to the blessings that G_d, the Father, promised the righteous remnant of the house of Israel.

What is missing, as I understand the story (and I have limited knowledge), is how did Lucifer plan to avoid repercussions that would occur with use of the powers of the dark side? (Where did he receive permission to receive the power of darkness?. Was it act of divine law that provided him the opportunity to receive power from the dark side? It appears to be so. Would this be permission?) Is it possible that Lucifer thought that he could in some way use those powers (if received through divine law) from the dark side. Could he have thought to use them to his advantage in the war in heaven to accomplish the desires of his heart and take possession of, or over ride the divine laws that govern the plan to recover the righteous of the house of Israel here upon the earth. Could he have thought of himself as being that smart? (What prevented him from accomplishing his goal? Was it divine laws? If so, why did he ignore them?)

It is certain that Lucifer thought himself to be deserving of receiving the inheritance that Jesus received from G_d, the Father.

A thought/question: Could Jesus and Lucifer be twins? Jesus first born? Lucifer second born? How would Lucifer challenge an inheritance?

Theory. Out there in never land?

Edited November 1, 2013 by Speakzeasy
additional thoughts, spelling

[Anddenex]

I am sorry - I respect what you are trying to say - except I just cannot make any sense of it. If Satan had a perfect knowledge of his fate when he made the choice of darkness - why would he be weeping, wailing and gnashing his teeth? - If it was not exactly what he wanted I do not understand why he would choose it and if it is what he wanted so badly why would there be any disappointment - let alone the weeping and such?

Can you give an example of someone - anyone - in this earth live that has perfect knowledge and makes the worst possible and most stupid choice that could be made based on that perfect knowledge? To me the right choice is inevitable with knowledge - and I cannot think of an exception - unless something is seriously screwed up very badly in their thinking - and they have no clue how badly it is going to turn out. And if that is the case - why are they stuck with what they really do not want. I cannot imagine a G-d that looks upon his suffering child is a state and condition that they do not want and there is no way to end the suffering. I have faith that suffering ends for all that suffer - that is the very purpose of an infinite atonement.

The Traveler

We see people with a perfect knowledge of their choice all the time making mistakes who weep, wail, and gnash their teeth because they are punished for their wrong choice.

A person only needs a perfect knowledge within the sphere of their choice. A person who has a perfect knowledge, if they kill, and are caught they will be thrown into prison for the rest of their lives. They weep, they wail and they gnash their teeth because they are unable to make a choice they want without consequence.

The purpose of the atonement is to end all suffering "solely" for those who accept it, not for their who have openly rejected it. If what you say is correct, then people who are within the Telestial kingdom would be able to eventually be received in the Celestial kingdom, not only the Celestial kingdom but within the highest tier within the Celestial kingdom, where all suffering ends.

The atonement, within scripture is pretty clear, that a person must accept the atonement for them to fully reap the rewards of the atonement, if not they suffer for their own sins, and they reap the reward for their sins.

I am sorry, but what you are saying does't make any sense also, especially when scripture provides different light. People suffer because of law, opposition, and agency. People rejoice and are lifted up because of law, opposition, and agency.

[Speakzeasy]

A person only needs a perfect knowledge within the sphere of their choice. A person who has a perfect knowledge, if they kill, and are caught they will be thrown into prison for the rest of their lives. They weep, they wail and they gnash their teeth because they are unable to make a choice they want without consequence.

It is true that when we commit crime we understand that getting caught brings consequences. Lucifer and the group that followed him must have known what it was that would have happened after rebelling against God, the Father.

When Lucifer and his followers rebelled, what prompt/force God, the Father, to impose such a harsh penalty on the rebelling children as to warrant the promises he has made to other children void? (The atonement does not apply to them.)

We think here on earth as murder being a crime with no forgiveness. However, David commit murder, Paul consents to murder. And more so in relationship to Paul, because we have more information about him, it does not seem to have influenced the purposes of God using these people for his purposes. David does not lose the promises made to him about Jesus birth, and Paul sees the Lord while traveling and wanting to do great harm to people that he disagrees with in another city. Were David and Paul innocent? Did they get lightly (if at all) punished compared to Lucifer and his followers?

If one claims that David and Paul with receive their just reward in the next life. Why then would God knowingly pass on blessings in this life with no punishment? (As in the atonement still applies to David and Paul.)

Edited November 1, 2013 by Speakzeasy
clarity, spelling

[Seminarysnoozer]

Assuming nature - I do not understand what nature turns away from light. We are told that Satan is miserable - what kind of nature spends all its energy for an eternity trying to be miserable? How can the desire of any heart be to find misery? And how can such nature be miserable rather than happy to achieve what it desires most. Really?

The Traveler

What you are asking is unknown.

Why would some spirits be more noble than others? It is the same question but just to a smaller degree. Why were we not all exactly like the Firstborn and mirror every move, thought process and expression of faith?

To know the answer to that would be to understand how intelligences are formed.

I think too, I would not look at it "as turning away light" but not having an ability to hold onto light. It is not a feature of, 'he could and yet he doesn't' but more of a 'he wants it but not capable of it'. If Lucifer was not of the contrite, humble type, he is not capable of receiving the truth and light even if he wants it.

The Lord, through Joseph Smith gives us the pattern of turning away from the light in all things and throughout all the heavens which includes Satan; D&C 52; " 14 And again, I will give unto you a pattern in all things, that ye may not be deceived; for Satan is abroad in the land, and he goeth forth deceiving the nations—

15 Wherefore he that prayeth, whose spirit is contrite, the same is accepted of me if he obey mine ordinances.

16 He that speaketh, whose spirit is contrite, whose language is meek and edifieth, the same is of God if he obey mine ordinances.

17 And again, he that trembleth under my power shall be made strong, and shall bring forth fruits of praise and wisdom, according to the revelations and truths which I have given you.

18 And again, he that is overcome and bringeth not forth fruits, even according to this pattern, is not of me.

19 Wherefore, by this pattern ye shall know the spirits in all cases under the whole heavens."

[Anddenex]

It is true that when we commit crime we understand that getting caught brings consequences. Lucifer and the group that followed him must have known what it was that would have happened after rebelling against God, the Father.

That is they way I understand scriptures pertaining to Satan and those that followed him. They must have had known this would be the consequence but they wanted something different.

When Lucifer and his followers rebelled, what prompt/force God, the Father, to impose such a harsh penalty on the rebelling children as to warrant the promises he has made to other children void? (The atonement does not apply to them.)

I agree, from scripture, we are informed that the atonement doesn't apply to them. I would assume it is a Celestial law, already predicated, by which they found themselves under the justice of this law. What law? I don't know. The scriptures are clear that laws require punishment in order for righteousness to be brought to pass. Satan and his minions chose an unrighteous path. They received the punishment of the law they broke. What law? Again, I would assume it is a Celestial law that is not revealed yet, or has been and it takes the spirit to discern it.

We think here on earth as murder being a crime with no forgiveness. However, David commit murder, Paul consents to murder. And more so in relationship to Paul, because we have more information about him, it does not seem to have influenced the purposes of God using these people for his purposes. David does not lose the promises made to him about Jesus birth, and Paul sees the Lord while traveling and wanting to do great harm to people that he disagrees with in another city. Were David and Paul innocent? Did they get lightly (if at all) punished compared to Lucifer and his followers?

Murder provides some form of forgiveness within specific circumstances. The main element I see that God weighs within his children is our knowledge, the light and truth we are given. Although David was forgiven it appears from scripture he will not be received in the Celestial kingdom, at least the highest degree. Yet, the Lamanite killed many Nephites, cold blooded murder, and we see them finding salvation through the atonement. I think God is more merciful to those whose fault are do to their parents. Lamanites were taught from their youth to kill Nephites. That is what they were taught. I can't say, if I grew up in a home that was like this that I can't say I wouldn't have killed anyone. I would think God's mercy is fine in these occassions to forgive murder, fornication, and other sins.

If David were to receive the highest degree in the Celestial kingdom, after his murder of Uriah, yes I would think he got off easy, but then again, I don't know God's ways and thoughts in perfection.

If one claims that David and Paul with receive their just reward in the next life. Why then would God knowingly pass on blessings in this life with no punishment? (As in the atonement still applies to David and Paul.)

I am not sure if I am understanding your question completely. The atonement applies to anyone who hasn't committed the unpardonable sin, blasphemy against the holy ghost. Murder is still covered within the atonement which is why we are informed murderers, rapists, others are received in the Telestial kingdom. The Telestial kingdom is still a form of forgiveness and a result of the atonement, but they do not receive any more blessins, in other words, they do not receive a fullness of the Father.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I cannot imagine a G-d that looks upon his suffering child is a state and condition that they do not want and there is no way to end the suffering. I have faith that suffering ends for all that suffer - that is the very purpose of an infinite atonement.

The Traveler

Suffering in that sense is a mortal experience. Christ had to be born in this world in order to suffer more than anyone. He could not have suffered as a spirit alone.

Part of the purpose of the atonement was to remove the prince of this world from the little he was given power over for a short period of this time. In other words, the atonement takes away from Satan even more.

John 12:31 " 31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the aprince of this world be cast out.

32 And I, if I be alifted up from the earth, will bdraw all men unto me."

Hebrews 2: " 14 aForasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted."

The devil didn't want to suffer (be mortal), so God gave him what he wanted.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Seminarysnoozer

[HiJolly]

Thanks for your response - if you do not mind some questions?

Questions often help my understanding, even of a thing I believe I understand. So, thank you for the questions.

Why is anyone's heart not true?

Because it is not. What is the 'heart', exactly? Can you clearly define it? How does it affect our conscious thoughts?

Is it because they do not understand something - if that is the reason why doesn't G-d let them see what they have not taken into consideration?

One of the rules of this life is that God does not hold any responsibility for revealing things as they are. Knowing as we are known, and seeing as we are seen, is always our task and no one else's. Even when God reveals 'Truth' to us, He does not ensure that we understand it, He _always_ allows us to misunderstand. This is not a philosophical viewpoint, but a matter of my own lived experience.

Is it possible that is exactly what is going on in our life experience?

I know it is.

Why do you think Lucifer is scared out of his wits concerning the risk of mortality? What do you think he knows that those that are not scared were not told?

We *are* told. We all saw the risk. Some, possibly all of us, were scared. Those who trusted the plan still went forward. Lucifer did not.

If he was wrong about being scared - why did not anyone (ie - G-d) tell him the truth?

Being told you are wrong is one thing. Accepting that you are wrong and making changes to your thought & action from that point on, is a totally different thing.

Is Lucifer deceived?

I think he has deceived himself, and cannot (for whatever reason) trust anyone else's opinion on the matter.

or does he not know the truth?

I think he has indeed been told the truth. He may even believe it, though I'm not sure about that. He may not understand it. To me, this is far, far more likely.

If he really does not know what is going on - is it just he is condemned forever for what he does not understand?

Yes, it is just. Not that I believe he will literally be condemned forever. I tend to agree with Brother Brigham on this. Why do alchemists strive to change lead to gold? If the lead never changes, is the Great Work done?

He must know exactly what he is doing - and if that is the case - why is he doing it? It just does not make sense.

The Traveler

I think you should consider the work that social workers do. They see this all the time. We see what we are doing, we know what our goals are ---- but where these things within us don't match up with the way things really work, outside our own self-delusion, well. Eventually we look at the mess and, befuddled and confused, have to say we don't understand. And many blame other people for the poor outcome. I think Lucifer blames God and/or Christ.

HJ