The Dark Side

[Speakzeasy]

Murder provides some form of forgiveness within specific circumstances. The main element I see that God weighs within his children is our knowledge, the light and truth we are given.

I agree that forgiveness is conditional on an knowledge that there is a God and conditions are met to receive forgiveness.

The atonement applies to anyone who hasn't committed the unpardonable sin, blasphemy against the holy ghost. Murder is still covered within the atonement which is why we are informed murderers, rapists, others are received in the Telestial kingdom.

So, "the unpardonable sin, blasphemy against the holy ghost" is not forgiven. All other sin, here on earth, is forgiven once conditions are met. And for some reason forgiveness is conditional? Is that really true forgiveness or a form of punishment? Conditions that are agreed upon by two parties, and are met in that agreement by both parties still have condition upon them? A just God? Hmmmm . . .

Something like paying the loan agreement at the Bank, then having the Banker say that the person needs to pay processing fees (but more severe).

Edited November 1, 2013 by Speakzeasy

[Speakzeasy]

One of the rules of this life is that God does not hold any responsibility for revealing things as they are. Knowing as we are known, and seeing as we are seen, is always our task and no one else's. Even when God reveals 'Truth' to us, He does not ensure that we understand it, He _always_ allows us to misunderstand. This is not a philosophical viewpoint, but a matter of my own lived experience.

I agree that we deceive ourselves. And God allows this to occur, without any intervention. (My own life experience, as well.)

Being told you are wrong is one thing. Accepting that you are wrong and making changes to your thought & action from that point on, is a totally different thing.

It is obvious that people in general do not appreciate being told that some aspect of something is wrong, or they misunderstand. One will find a defensive position to protect that which one thinks/believes to be so.

I think he has deceived himself, and cannot (for whatever reason) trust anyone else's opinion on the matter.

Lucifers position appears to be one that was/is agreed upon by a very large group of people (a third part). Did he deceive them as well? Did they not have the same basic information about events, and repercussions to their actions, etc? What was it that made it such a common understanding that he could draw a large group of people into that common understanding? Why would a group of people agree that one particular person should be chosen to benefit from something that they knew he had no ability to receive?

Edited November 1, 2013 by Speakzeasy

[Finrock]

Those who are truly evil take pleasure in doing evil. Satan was a liar from the beginning. He lied about having a plan. He had no plan. He knew his plan would not work to bring about God's purposes. However, Satan wants to control and dominate through force.

He takes pleasure in bringing people to submission. He has the life he desires. Think of the mentality of a serial killer. They don't think what they are doing is wrong. They don't care because it is all about them.

Satan has no empathy. He believes he is right. He doesn't care that he is rebelling against what is good. What is good is in direct opposition to what Satan truly desires and gets pleasure from.

-Finrock

[mrmarklin]

Lucifer is selfish. That's the whole reason his plan was rejected.

This selfishness has blinded him to God's intentions for His family, and somehow satan thinks his is the better way, and he can win out in the end. I don't think he gets the whole picture.

A lot of people here don't, and they accepted the first and second estates.

[Anddenex]

So, "the unpardonable sin, blasphemy against the holy ghost" is not forgiven. All other sin, here on earth, is forgiven once conditions are met. And for some reason forgiveness is conditional? Is that really true forgiveness or a form of punishment? Conditions that are agreed upon by two parties, and are met in that agreement by both parties still have condition upon them? A just God? Hmmmm . . .

Something like paying the loan agreement at the Bank, then having the Banker say that the person needs to pay processing fees (but more severe).

The reason forgiveness is conditional is well stated, spoken in plainness, so that it may be for our profit and learning. Forgiveness is received via the atonement when a person repents (source). Thus one of the first conditions of forgiveness is to "come unto Christ" (source) by denying ourselves all ungodliness (repentance). Yes, this is really true forgiveness, and as often as people repented ( a condition ) they received forgiveness ( source ).

Yes, God is a just God. If the conditions were agreed upon then there wouldn't be any other condition...thus I am not sure where you are going. If an individual made a contract with the bank, and the contract specified conditions, and the person agreed to those conditions, then paying processing fees wouldn't be an issue -- it was agreed upon. It would be just.

[Traveler]

Some of the things we do know may help (some). I will add some more thoughts:

The Dark side is opposite to light. This means that there is nothing that is part of both – but it can also mean that for each element of one there is a counter of that in the other. This thought is intriguing.

Satan loves darkness more than light – or I think we can say that he hates or despises light. There is something about darkness that Satan prefers – This is a major element that creates results that do not make sense to me. But since Satan was brought up (enlightened) in the presents of G-d – this particular attribute or affinity towards darkness would have to be an acquired preference – even though the Doctrine and Covenants indicates that we remain basically the same – we become something that was present from the beginning – though I am not sure what is meant by “the beginning” in this context.

One interesting aspect of the creation in Genesis that is mentioned in Chiasm form with some relation to the Book of Revelation is the correlation of separating light from darkness (in Genesis) and the final Judgment (in Revelation). So is essence we see Lucifer evolving from a being known for their affinity for light to Satan a being known for affinity for darkness. This would indicate that we do not start out – as some have characterized with a dark nature but somehow develop it.

It would seem that darkness has power to change an individual as much as light has to enlighten an individual. There is an old Native American saying that within us all are two wolves. A wild evil untamed wolf and a kind domestic wolf and the wolf that takes over our character is the wolf we feed. The one idea that does make sense to me is that we become what we are becoming. Although we do temple work – perhaps the wolf that controls us (we feed in this life) when we die is the wolf we are resurrected with. It may be more important that we realize to what religion we determine (among choices) that we realize. With that in mind we ought to make sure (double so) of our faith and what we desire (feed) in our faith.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

It would seem that darkness has power to change an individual as much as light has to enlighten an individual. There is an old Native American saying that within us all are two wolves. A wild evil untamed wolf and a kind domestic wolf and the wolf that takes over our character is the wolf we feed. The one idea that does make sense to me is that we become what we are becoming. Although we do temple work – perhaps the wolf that controls us (we feed in this life) when we die is the wolf we are resurrected with. It may be more important that we realize to what religion we determine (among choices) that we realize. With that in mind we ought to make sure (double so) of our faith and what we desire (feed) in our faith.

The Traveler

Yes, this is taught very specifically as the dual nature we now have between the physical and the spirit bodies.

Teachings of David O. McKay:

"Each of us has two contrasting natures: the physical and the spiritual.

Man is a dual being, and his life a plan of God. That is the first fundamental fact to keep in mind. Man has a natural body and a spiritual body. In declaring this fact the scriptures are very explicit:

“And the Gods formed man from the dust of the ground, and took his spirit (that is, the man’s spirit), and put it into him; and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.” [Abraham 5:7.]

Life is a test to see which of our two natures we will follow and develop.

Man’s earthly existence is but a test as to whether he will concentrate his efforts, his mind, his soul, upon things which contribute to the comfort and gratification of his physical nature, or whether he will make as his life’s pursuit the acquisition of spiritual qualities.

“Every noble impulse, every unselfish expression of love; every brave suffering for the right; every surrender of self to something higher than self; every loyalty to an ideal; every unselfish devotion to principle; every helpfulness to humanity; every act of self-control; every fine courage of the soul, undefeated by pretense or policy, but by being, doing, and living of good for the very good’s sake—that is spirituality.”"

And Elder Bednar;

"As sons and daughters of God, we have inherited divine capacities from Him. But we presently live in a fallen world. The very elements out of which our bodies were created are by nature fallen and ever subject to the pull of sin, corruption, and death. Consequently, the Fall of Adam and its spiritual and temporal consequences affect us most directly through our physical bodies. And yet we are dual beings, for our spirit that is the eternal part of us is tabernacled in a physical body that is subject to the Fall. As Jesus emphasized to the Apostle Peter, “The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41).

The precise nature of the test of mortality, then, can be summarized in the following question: Will I respond to the inclinations of the natural man, or will I yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and put off the natural man and become a saint through the Atonement of Christ the Lord (see Mosiah 3:19)? That is the test. Every appetite, desire, propensity, and impulse of the natural man may be overcome by and through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. We are here on the earth to develop godlike qualities and to bridle all of the passions of the flesh."