Who Is Jesus Christ?

[Stephen]

Originally posted by Snow+Mar 29 2004, 03:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Mar 29 2004, 03:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Stephen@Mar 29 2004, 03:04 PM

Mormon counterfeit scriptures really don't mean alot to me

Stephen,

If you are so secure in your theology why the incessant need to demean other religions?

Basically your position is "my dogma is better than your dogma" Yeah whatever but can't you just shut your yap instead of demeaning us? Really, it very unflattering - to you and speaks very poorly of the value of your conviction.

My very beliefs are that the Bible is God's only words. I will not change those beliefs for you or anybody Snow. If my beliefs are demeaning to others just by what they are then you have two options.

1) Ignore what I believe that is demeaning to you.

2) Argue with me about some of my beliefs that by there very nature are demeaning to you.

It was Peace that was trying to prove me wrong using Mormon Doctrine. Its demeaning to me that she thinks that I am infantile enough to submit to what she believes when all she offers is teachings of Mormon leaders and Mormon scriptures that has about as much meaning to me as what my Pastor says has any relevance to you!

[Snow]

Originally posted by Stephen@Mar 29 2004, 03:20 PM

My very beliefs are that the Bible is God's only words.

No, no, no,

I am talking about your beliefs that make you lie and demean other religions. I think one could make an arguable case that doing that is not in keeping with Bible teachings.

Why no just be honest and, well, mostly honest, and maybe a little more tolerant?

[Tr2]

Why no just be honest and, well, mostly honest, and maybe a little more tolerant?

Is tolerant calling other people, who simply disagree with you, "liars"? Or Is it mocking anyone who disagrees with your theology? Do you consider your own behavior to be tolerant? What about calling somebody else a rapist?

[Faerie]

Hmmm...I'm 5th generation LDS and have been through the temple...hmmm...don't really recall anyone officially teaching about a Heavenly Mother...speculation yes...official doctrine? no..

but just in case..let me search the lds.org...11 search results w/ the phrase "Heavenly Mother"

there are some quotes from various authorities who briefly mention the existence of a Heavenly Mother, as well as common speculation..out of those 11 results, all of the quotes simply infer that a Heavenly Mother exists...there's no official dogma...there's no secret rituals in the temple where we learn about Christ being the byproduct of a Heavenly copulation....

And I'm sorry, I'm personally offended by you calling our scriptures "counterfeit." I don't go around to other religious message boards and demean their belief system or tell them they're going to hell because they simply believe differently...I think you have a sad and pitiful life if you insist on a sad and pathetic attempt to bring down our church...go to the CF forum, your presence is obviously much more needed there...

*walks off in disgust*

[Stephen]

Originally posted by Faerie@Mar 29 2004, 03:59 PM

Hmmm...I'm 5th generation LDS and have been through the temple...hmmm...don't really recall anyone officially teaching about a Heavenly Mother...speculation yes...official doctrine? no..

but just in case..let me search the lds.org...11 search results w/ the phrase "Heavenly Mother"

there are some quotes from various authorities who briefly mention the existence of a Heavenly Mother, as well as common speculation..out of those 11 results, all of the quotes simply infer that a Heavenly Mother exists...there's no official dogma...there's no secret rituals in the temple where we learn about Christ being the byproduct of a Heavenly copulation....

And I'm sorry, I'm personally offended by you calling our scriptures "counterfeit." I don't go around to other religious message boards and demean their belief system or tell them they're going to hell because they simply believe differently...I think you have a sad and pitiful life if you insist on a sad and pathetic attempt to bring down our church...go to the CF forum, your presence is obviously much more needed there...

*walks off in disgust*

I also believe the Koran is counterfeit scripture if it makes you feel any better. Of course you would agree with that statement most likely and still have no remorse that your belief is demeaning to muslims.

Are you and Snow purposefully being melodramatic?

Certainly you can't be that thin skinned!

[Outshined]

No, Stephen, we disagree with your personal, incorrect interpretation. Sorry, kid, but you don't get to interpret scripture for everyone. Your arrogance is pretty amazing, but does not change fact. You see the Bible differently than many, many others do. Get used to it, okay?

Originally posted by Stephen@Mar 29 2004, 10:55 AM

 

The we just disagree with your interpretation of the Bible is a weak infantile made-up excuse. The majority of the time that excuse is totally invalid. Where the Bible is clear and unambiguous there is no issue of interpretation because the scriptures say what they mean and they mean what they say. If Outshined continues to be dishonest on this issue and use strawman arguments he will lose the respect of everybody once people catch on to what he is doing.

That's pretty funny, amid a large, infantile post, we get a threat that if I don't start agreeing with Stephen, everyone will lose respect for me, and I'll regret it! Surely you don't think you have that much esteem here, do you? And I don't think you really understand what a strawman argument is; you must just think it sounds cool.

Jesus Christ did not come into existence as a result of sexual intercourse between Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother.

No kidding. Where do you get these wild ideas?

The idea that Jesus Christ is the first born spirit child of a Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother is totally diametrically opposed to what the Bible teaches.

psst! I don't look to young Stephen for advice about the Bible. He has shown me he isn't very reliable in matters biblical. I don't think he knows what the Bible teaches..........

Anybody with a modicum of common sense can see that.

Your post proves otherwise......

Get over yourself already and find a nice Baptist church to follow around and harrass........

[Faerie]

Actually the Quran has many similar teachings and doctrines that the Bible has...same idea, different messenger...

I don't see it as "counterfeit" I really believe there was a man named Muhammed who wrote/translated/whatever the Koran..I don't think he made it up for his own personal amusement...twould not be MY place to say who God can and cannot speak to and share His message through...sorry Bubba, your weak attempt to marginalize me has failed yet again...

[Snow]

Originally posted by Tr2@Mar 29 2004, 03:54 PM

Is tolerant calling other people, who simply disagree with you, "liars"? Or Is it mocking anyone who disagrees with your theology? Do you consider your own behavior to be tolerant? What about calling somebody else a rapist?

No, no, no Trident.

Please look up the definition of "liar"

It is being intentionally dishonest that makes one a liar. Disagreeing with me makes one of a different opinion from me. They aren't related unless by coincidence.

Do I consider my self to be tolerant? Well, I allow that any sincere and honest Christian who feels they have made a valid committment to and conection with God, likely has and deserves some respect and at bare minimum... honesty.

What I am intolerant of is 1. idiots, 2. anti-Mormons and bigots, 3. "charismatic" televangelist. As an example last night on the TBN Praise-a-Thon, there was an attractive 40'ish, stylish female televangelist, hopping up and down, rocking back and forth, intoning is a poor imitation or a black Baptist rally preacher - promising 1000x increase in happiness, 1000x increase in joy, 1000x increase in health, 1000x increase in wealth, 1000x increase in authority, 1000x increase in understanding, 1000x increase in God's favor..............

What was the catch? You had to send into to Paul Crouch's tv ministry $68.50.

So I am intolerant of that, but try to be tolerant of most other things.

... and who's the rapist that you mention?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Stephen@Mar 29 2004, 04:09 PM

Are you and Snow purposefully being melodramatic?

Certainly you can't be that thin skinned!

What on earth does the thickness of anyone's skin and have to do with dishonesty and hate? Like it is our fault or something.

Have you ever considers reforming instead of blaming. You know, taking responsibility for your own self?

[Stephen]

Originally posted by Outshined+Mar 29 2004, 05:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Outshined @ Mar 29 2004, 05:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> No, Stephen, we disagree with your personal, incorrect interpretation. Sorry, kid, but you don't get to interpret scripture for everyone. Your arrogance is pretty amazing, but does not change fact. You see the Bible differently than many, many others do. Get used to it, okay?

<!--QuoteBegin--Stephen

@Mar 29 2004, 10:55 AM

 

The we just disagree with your interpretation of the Bible is a weak infantile made-up excuse. The majority of the time that excuse is totally invalid. Where the Bible is clear and unambiguous there is no issue of interpretation because the scriptures say what they mean and they mean what they say. If Outshined continues to be dishonest on this issue and use strawman arguments he will lose the respect of everybody once people catch on to what he is doing.

That's pretty funny, amid a large, infantile post, we get a threat that if I don't start agreeing with Stephen, everyone will lose respect for me, and I'll regret it! Surely you don't think you have that much esteem here, do you? And I don't think you really understand what a strawman argument is; you must just think it sounds cool.

Jesus Christ did not come into existence as a result of sexual intercourse between Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother.

No kidding. Where do you get these wild ideas?

The idea that Jesus Christ is the first born spirit child of a Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother is totally diametrically opposed to what the Bible teaches.

psst! I don't look to young Stephen for advice about the Bible. He has shown me he isn't very reliable in matters biblical. I don't think he knows what the Bible teaches..........

Anybody with a modicum of common sense can see that.

Your post proves otherwise......

Get over yourself already and find a nice Baptist church to follow around and harrass........

Again Outshine in his classical dishonest way gives us his strawman argument...........instead of addressing the real issue which is: what does the Bible teach?........he side-steps the issue by turning the focus onto me with a false accusation that I am misinterpreting the Bible.

Lets look at what the Bible actually teaches.

Hebrews 7:

2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

In these verses Jesus Christ is being compared to Melchizedek.

The point of these verses is that Jesus Christ a.k.a. the Son of God......is without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life.

I believe what the Bible teaches about the Son of God/Jesus Christ, which is the following points that I derived from the above Bible verses:

1) Jesus Christ is without father, without mother!....How many different ways can this be interpreted? You can break it down into two things:

a) Jesus Christ literally is without father and without mother which means that he did not come into existence as the result of intercourse between Heavenly Parents. This makes the most sense when looking at the above Bible verses.

b ) Jesus Christ figuratively is without father and without mother! He has no parents in a metaphorical sense which must be the interpratation that Outshined believes since that is the only other option.

2) Jesus Christ is without descent!....How many different ways can this be interpreted:

a) Jesus Christ literally has no descendents which seems to be most logical and makes sense when looking at the above Bible verses.

b ) Jesus Christ figuratively has no descendents. How this works in a figurative sense we will have to ask Outshined about.

3) Jesus Christ has neither beginning of days nor end of life:

a) Jesus Christ literally is without beginning of days or end of life as the verses say.

b ) Jesus Christ figuratively is without beginning of days or end of life which does not make much sense, but must be the interpretation Outshined takes since there is no other option.

I guess we now all know how Outshined looks at things. He is right that there is another interpretation, but the other interpretation is alot of nonsense.

Jesus Christ was not the first born spirit child of a Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother......because he is without father, without mother, without descent and has neither beginning of days nor end of life.

Jesus Christ has always existed and there was never any point in the past where he was literally born of heavenly parents.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Stephen@Mar 30 2004, 01:57 PM

Again Outshine in his classical dishonest way gives us his strawman argument...........

Stephen saying that someone else is dishonest is like the pot calling the kettle a pot.

Here's a clue Steve. The minute you tell us what the Bible says instead of allowing the Bible to say what the Bible says, you are interpreting it. And your spin don't make no bit o difference. Since you ain't no prophet, you, especially you, are unqualified to interpret for us.

[Guest Starsky]

What you believe...and what really is...Stephen are totally two different things. Like Snow said...you have tried to bend these scriptures to cover your belief...

It just doesn't work.

[Tr2]

It is being intentionally dishonest that makes one a liar. Disagreeing with me makes one of a different opinion from me. They aren't related unless by coincidence.

I am really at a loss for words. I don't know how I could have clarified my point any more. You specified a few points that made me a "liar". I addressed each one of them with factual data. And now you have abandonded discussing what makes me a "liar" and taken up petty name calling. Your basis for calling me a liar is non existant because I have demonstrated that I have factual information that you cannot disprove. You are calling me a liar for the sake of calling me a liar. It is more apparent, now than ever, that you have no interest in facts or truth. You don't need a reason for accusing somebody else of something as long as you feel like believing it.

As an example last night on the TBN Praise-a-Thon, there was an attractive 40'ish, stylish female televangelist, hopping up and down, rocking back and forth, intoning is a poor imitation or a black Baptist rally preacher - promising 1000x increase in happiness, 1000x increase in joy, 1000x increase in health, 1000x increase in wealth, 1000x increase in authority, 1000x increase in understanding, 1000x increase in God's favor.............

You are so bitter, why? What has happened in your life to make you such a negative, angry person? I want to know so I can make sure it never happens to me.

... and who's the rapist that you mention?

You don't remember when you called me a rapist, abuser, and molestor? it doesn't surprise me since the insults just seem to roll off you. I want to know what kind of person can just accuse somebody of being a rapist and not remember that?

Well, I allow that any sincere and honest Christian who feels they have made a valid committment to and conection with God, likely has and deserves some respect and at bare minimum... honesty.

You "allow"? You have an extremely high opinion of yourself don't you?

[Outshined]

Stephen, how about you define "strawman argument" for us. I still don't think you know what it means.

My argument: Stephen's opinion of the Bible is his own interpretation, and I don't agree with said interpretation.

Stephen, please explain how this is a "strawman argument". That should do for starters.

I'll set aside your false accusations against my integrity and again state that my opinion of your biblical views is not "false accusation", but my honest opinion.

Get to explaining.

[broadway]

The minute you tell us what the Bible says instead of allowing the Bible to say what the Bible says, you are interpreting it. And your spin don't make no bit o difference. Since you ain't no prophet, you, especially you, are unqualified to interpret for us.

Isn't that what the Mainstream Christian churches tell their congregations?

"We have no prophet. God can't bring up another prophet. It is up to personal interpretation. We are our own prophet."

They say this and hope that each can come up with the correct interpretation because it is possible that with misinterpreting it, eternal damnation comes into the picture.

So, we have these churches leading their people to believe that God has left us to lead ourselves, all the while ridiculing the LDS church for its belief in a need for a restored gospel.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Tr2@Mar 30 2004, 04:56 PM

I am really at a loss for words. I don't know how I could have clarified my point any more. You specified a few points that made me a "liar". I addressed each one of them with factual data

Wrong wrong and wrong.

Wrong, you are not speechless, you go on and on and on.

Wrong, This thread and my charge of dishonesty is barely even about you. It is primarily about Stephen. On the first page you made the false charge "here are a few of people on this board who do not want to know God;" we both know toward whom that was intended and we both know that it is untrue but beyond that little bit, I am not even talking about you.

Wrong, you haven't addressed any points on this thread with factual data. Until this post above, you have made 3 posts on this thread and none of the three have factual data - go back and check. I did.

As an example last night on the TBN Praise-a-Thon, there was an attractive 40'ish, stylish female televangelist, hopping up and down, rocking back and forth, intoning is a poor imitation or a black Baptist rally preacher - promising 1000x increase in happiness, 1000x increase in joy, 1000x increase in health, 1000x increase in wealth, 1000x increase in authority, 1000x increase in understanding, 1000x increase in God's favor.............

You are so bitter, why? What has happened in your life to make you such a negative, angry person? I want to know so I can make sure it never happens to me.

Yeah, thanks for sharing but what did you think about the lady hopping up and down promising you a 1000 times increase in wealth and favor from God if you will send her 68 bucks?

You don't remember when you called me a rapist...?

Wrong,

In point of fact of fact I did not call you a rapist Trident. I said that you were a molestor in that you came into the home (a LDS message board) and deliberately attacked them and tried to cause them harm/pain, against their will and that your mentality was like that of a rapist when you said that if was the Mormon's fault that you tried to cause them harm because they dared to call themselves Christian. A rapist often blames the victim for the abuse of the perpetrator. I never claimed nor implied that you had sexually assualted anyone or physically raped them. [Definition... Molest: [v] annoy continually or chronically;] My use of the word was entirely accurate.

Well, I allow that any sincere and honest Christian who feels they have made a valid committment to and conection with God, likely has and deserves some respect and at bare minimum... honesty.

You "allow"? You have an extremely high opinion of yourself don't you?

Do you understand the definition of the word "allow?" [definition: concede the truth or validity of something; "I allow for this possibility";]

[Snow]

Originally posted by broadway@Mar 30 2004, 05:22 PM

The minute you tell us what the Bible says instead of allowing the Bible to say what the Bible says, you are interpreting it. And your spin don't make no bit o difference. Since you ain't no prophet, you, especially you, are unqualified to interpret for us.

Isn't that what the Mainstream Christian churches tell their congregations?

"We have no prophet. God can't bring up another prophet. It is up to personal interpretation. We are our own prophet."

Maybe they say that they have no prophet but the groups I am referring to certainly do not leave it up to personal interpretation. They say you HAVE to interpret the scriptures according to the creeds and councils.

[Stephen]

Originally posted by Peace@Mar 30 2004, 02:25 PM

What you believe...and what really is...Stephen are totally two different things. Like Snow said...you have tried to bend these scriptures to cover your belief...

It just doesn't work.

Bend what? I see people like yourself whining because I believe what the Bible actually says in these verses instead of disregarding them.

Hebrews 7:

2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

I believe what these verses actually say. Do you?

[Guest Starsky]

Whining? Boy....that is news...now responding to you with my opinion is whining....hmmmm.

So I guess I dont' want to whine anymore...I should stop posting my opinions to your posts....hmmmm.

Okay.

[Stephen]

Originally posted by Peace@Mar 30 2004, 06:15 PM

Whining? Boy....that is news...now responding to you with my opinion is whining....hmmmm.

So I guess I dont' want to whine anymore...I should stop posting my opinions to your posts....hmmmm.

Okay.

You were whining/complaining that I was bending the scriptures without demonstrating your point.

If that is not whining then you must have a different definition of the word.

[Outshined]

Originally posted by Peace@Mar 30 2004, 07:15 PM

Whining? Boy....that is news...now responding to you with my opinion is whining....hmmmm.

Not only that, it's false accusation, a "strawman argument", and if you don't start agreeing with Stephen, everyone will lose respect for you, because disagreeing with Stephen is not allowed...

[Stephen]

Originally posted by broadway@Mar 30 2004, 05:22 PM

The minute you tell us what the Bible says instead of allowing the Bible to say what the Bible says, you are interpreting it. And your spin don't make no bit o difference. Since you ain't no prophet, you, especially you, are unqualified to interpret for us.

Isn't that what the Mainstream Christian churches tell their congregations?

"We have no prophet. God can't bring up another prophet. It is up to personal interpretation. We are our own prophet."

They say this and hope that each can come up with the correct interpretation because it is possible that with misinterpreting it, eternal damnation comes into the picture.

So, we have these churches leading their people to believe that God has left us to lead ourselves, all the while ridiculing the LDS church for its belief in a need for a restored gospel.

That of course is your opinion, but such an idea does not accurately represent Protestant Christianity. I can understand the stereotypical misrepresentation since you have probably been a member of the LDS Church your whole life and don't really understand what other churches believe.

Every Evangelical Christian Church that I'm aware of believes in personal revelation from God and God's revealed truths in the Bible.

[srm]

Hebrews says that it is Melchisedec who that is without beginning of days and end of life. Even if it is comparing Jesus to Melchisedec (which I'm not conceding) do you believe that both Melchisedec AND Jesus are 'without beginning of days and end of life'? how can that be re: Melchisedec? was he god too?

BTW, you didn't answer my Mormon accepting Jesus question. Will you please?

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by srm@Mar 30 2004, 06:34 PM

Hebrews says that it is Melchisedec who that is without beginning of days and end of life. Even is it is comparing Jesus to Melchisedec (which I'm not conceding) do you believe that both Melchisedec AND Jesus are 'without beginning of days and end of life'? how can that be re: Melchisedec? was he god too?

BTW, you didn't answer my Mormon accepting Jesus question. Will you please?

Good question... and btw...Stephen...were they both the 'first born'?

[broadway]

Hebrews 7:

2  To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

3  Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

I believe what these verses actually say. Do you?

Stephen,

Would you, for the sake of my ignorance, explain what you believe these verses to say? It seems that I have missed a part of this discussion and have no idea in what context this post is.

broadway