Nelson Mandela passes over

[bytor2112]

seems everytime I come here, either I get blatantly insulted, or my beliefs do

you'd think I'd expect it by now

Thicker skin perhaps?

[LittleWyvern]

So before you politicize the life of Nelson Mandela, please study the history of South Africa. Nothing is as simple as you make it seem in this thread.

^^^

Edited December 12, 2013 by LittleWyvern

[Guest]

I am not going to be purchasing a Mandela t-shirt and given that he spent something like 27 years in prison for acts of terror and refused to renounce his terrorist tendencies.....he is sure to have his image seen on campuses proudly displayed with Obama and the departed Che' on young folks whose minds are poisoned with liberal mush.

And some of Mandela's more...left pleasing comments:

seems everytime I come here, either I get blatantly insulted, or my beliefs do

you'd think I'd expect it by now

Thicker skin perhaps?

The problem with bytor is he applies the American definition of liberal to the International Stage. American Liberal is not World liberal. An Australian liberal, for example, is completely different than an American liberal. It is so different that many Americans forget that LIBERALISM (the kind that was Nelson Mandela) is what caused the US to cede from the British.

[Guest]

Is Laban your view of Christ-like.

I'm thinking of the sermon on the mount. Rarely does the Lord command us to kill or harm. Instead its "the meek shall inherit the earth."

The meek shall inherit the earth does not imply zero violence. As can be learned from the story of the Sons of Helaman, meek though they all are.

[Windseeker]

As a conservative I admire Nelson Mandela for several reasons.

He chose to learn Afrikaans in prison because in his mind… the Afrikaner was an African and there would be no solution to the political issues without understanding and involving them in the process. He chose to view those different from him as part of the solution not part of a problem.

When he was released from Prison he could have further divided the country but he didn't.

He limited himself to one term, what's not to admire about that?

In these areas his example is not just great, it excoriates and puts to shame our current leaders and the rest of the arrogant and self-absorbed leaders around the world who are all about power thru division and treating those they are supposed be leading/serving with contempt.

[Guest]

And some of Mandela's more...left pleasing comments:

Did you study the history of these statements??? Did you read about the role of the USA in the suppression of the ANC and the arrest of Mandela and the US role in the continuation of apartheid through the Cold War? Did you study the history of the ANC and Cuba's support for them and Fidel's vehement denounciation of apartheid? Did you read what shaped Mandela's revolutionary tactics; how it morphed from peaceful protest to the ANC of the 60's and how that eventually led to the end of apartheid?

Sound bites, bytor. Not only is it a very flat view of the earth, it is looking through that flattened view of the earth through a tiny crack on the wall.

The US has its reasons for aiding in the suppression of the ANC. They were fighting communism. They were not fighting for apartheid. But from Mandela's point of view, it hindered his fight for the liberty of the black South Africans. In Mandela's perspective, communism was his stepping stone to liberty. Russia and Cuba were his allies. The enemy of his allies (the US) are his enemies. He was fighting a cause. And it is interesting to note that in all of the years that Mandela was President, South Africa never got even close to being communist. You have to look at everything beyond the sound bites and the quote snippets so you can understand what drives people in this Game of Thrones.

Edited December 12, 2013 by anatess

[Guest]

as a conservative i admire nelson mandela for several reasons.

He chose to learn afrikaans in prison because in his mind… the afrikaner was an african and there would be no solution to the political issues without understanding and involving them in the process. He chose to view those different from him as part of the solution not part of a problem.

When he was released from prison he could have further divided the country but he didn't.

He limited himself to one term, what's not to admire about that?

In these areas his example is not just great, it excoriates and puts to shame our current leaders and the rest of the arrogant and self-absorbed leaders around the world who are all about power thru division and treating those they are supposed be leading/serving with contempt.

Bravi bravi bravi!!!

[Vort]

Anyone who thinks that Mandela was an angel or a saint has never studied his biography, or else has a truly awful opinion of angels and saints. His first wife, at least, was a murderous thug and a supporter of such, probably taking the path Mandela himself would have taken had he stayed on course. But people are born into situations not of their own making, so it's hardly surprising that Mandela took the course he did early on.

I don't condemn Mandela; there is One who will make that judgment, and I'm content to leave it to him. But while I don't condemn Mandela, I also don't venerate him. I recognize that he did many good things, and in fact I doubt I would have done equally well in his position. I do think the breast-beating over his death is a bit much.

[Guest]

I do think the breast-beating over his death is a bit much.

Vort, my English is failing me on this one. Can you clarify this one for me? Thanks.

[pam]

Vort, my English is failing me on this one. Can you clarify this one for me? Thanks.

It's usually an exaggerated display of dismay or grief. Or to publicly pretend you feel sad or remorse.

[Dravin]

Vort, my English is failing me on this one. Can you clarify this one for me? Thanks.

Breast-beating - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Vort will be along to chime in with any connotative idea(s) attached to his usage.

[Vort]

Breast-beating - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Vort will be along to chime in with any connotative idea(s) attached to his usage.

This, and Pam's explanation.

We tend to think of "breast" as the protuberant organ on a woman's chest (and the less-protuberant male version, though there isn't much interesting about that), but the word refers more generally to the front of the upper torso, more or less synonymous with "chest". In former times, displays of grief often took the form of overt demonstrations such as tearing your clothing, shaving your head, or beating your fists on your chest while you wailed in misery -- hence "breast-beating". As Pam explained, it's usually associated with an overblown, theatrical display of grief or remorse, designed more for show than as a reflection of actual emotion.

[Guest]

Anyone who thinks that Mandela was an angel or a saint has never studied his biography, or else has a truly awful opinion of angels and saints. His first wife, at least, was a murderous thug and a supporter of such, probably taking the path Mandela himself would have taken had he stayed on course. But people are born into situations not of their own making, so it's hardly surprising that Mandela took the course he did early on.

I don't condemn Mandela; there is One who will make that judgment, and I'm content to leave it to him. But while I don't condemn Mandela, I also don't venerate him. I recognize that he did many good things, and in fact I doubt I would have done equally well in his position. I do think the breast-beating over his death is a bit much.

This, and Pam's explanation.

We tend to think of "breast" as the protuberant organ on a woman's chest (and the less-protuberant male version, though there isn't much interesting about that), but the word refers more generally to the front of the upper torso, more or less synonymous with "chest". In former times, displays of grief often took the form of overt demonstrations such as tearing your clothing, shaving your head, or beating your fists on your chest while you wailed in misery -- hence "breast-beating". As Pam explained, it's usually associated with an overblown, theatrical display of grief or remorse, designed more for show than as a reflection of actual emotion.

In that case, I agree with you!

Although I tend to be more sympathetic to Mandela as the Philippines went through almost the same history under Spanish rule and we had our own heroes that shared similar patterns with Mandela's. Jose Rizal was hailed by the Americans as our National Hero as he fought for liberty in peaceful ways using pen and diplomacy. But Filipinos hail Andres Bonifacio - the leader of the armed rebellion as their hero. But even Jose Rizal, as peace-loving as he is, wrote El Filibusterismo that gave the rebels the signal to end peaceful revolution and start the armed revolution. If he didn't get killed by firing squad for a traitor, I am sure he would have supported, if not joined, the armed revolution. And, also, in the same manner, the Filipino rebels despised the American colonizers for their role in taking victory away from the Filipinos.

The Philippines is a great American ally and majority of the Filipinos love America. But, at the same time, there is that dark history that we can't ignore. But, we need to realize that each player have their own extreme challenges and hopeful goals and that for a carpenter, every problem is a nail...

Edited December 12, 2013 by anatess

[bytor2112]

Did you study the history of these statements??? Did you read about the role of the USA in the suppression of the ANC and the arrest of Mandela and the US role in the continuation of apartheid through the Cold War? Did you study the history of the ANC and Cuba's support for them and Fidel's vehement denounciation of apartheid? Did you read what shaped Mandela's revolutionary tactics; how it morphed from peaceful protest to the ANC of the 60's and how that eventually led to the end of apartheid?

Sound bites, bytor. Not only is it a very flat view of the earth, it is looking through that flattened view of the earth through a tiny crack on the wall.

The US has its reasons for aiding in the suppression of the ANC. They were fighting communism. They were not fighting for apartheid. But from Mandela's point of view, it hindered his fight for the liberty of the black South Africans. In Mandela's perspective, communism was his stepping stone to liberty. Russia and Cuba were his allies. The enemy of his allies (the US) are his enemies. He was fighting a cause. And it is interesting to note that in all of the years that Mandela was President, South Africa never got even close to being communist. You have to look at everything beyond the sound bites and the quote snippets so you can understand what drives people in this Game of Thrones.

I did and I disagree with your assessment....and as I stated in an early comment, I will be happy to let the Lord be the judge....

[talisyn]

I don't think Mandela has a lot to fear from his ultimate Judge. He served his time in prison and chose liberty and conciliation with apartheid supporters. I think he was wise to serve only 1 term. Just long enough to nudge his beloved country on a good path, but not long enough for old wounds and disagreements to hinder real democratic progress