Miracle Quest

[jehote]

Hi all. i watched a really good show on Travel Channel about Miracles and places Miracles occur. One of the things was a man named Padre Pio. he is now a Catholic Saint. He had stigmata. the 5 wounds of Christ. he lived with the wounds for 50 years before they dissapeared leavong NO marks right before his death. Miracles have been performed in his name a few times since his death, hence the Sainthood by the Pope. How do you guys feel about things and places like this? Obviously he wasn't LDS but a man of great faith who suffered his whole life, childhood included for God.

I was Catholic before converting to LDS so saints and the Pope hold alot of belief for me.

take care and hope to hear from you guys!

J

[CrimsonKairos]

You're LDS? And you place great store in the Pope and Catholic saints?

Stigmata is a hoax. A poor one at that. Miracles are only accomplished through the name of Jesus.

Dude, are you just screwing around with us or what?

[OIC]

You're LDS? And you place great store in the Pope and Catholic saints?

Stigmata is a hoax. A poor one at that. Miracles are only accomplished through the name of Jesus.

Dude, are you just screwing around with us or what?

No, actually it's not. It is believed to be a psychosomatic symptom but is none-the-less very real. Since Stigmata must be investigated thoroughly for any signs of hoax before being declared "stigmata" only an unrecognized case could actually be hoaxed. There are confirmed cases (though I can't find the case studies online) where men have actually brought themselves to lactate and there is purely anecdotal evidence of men breastfeeding, altering there bodies through psychosomatic means.

Are you just having a bad day or in a bad mood? Because I personally don't see anything wrong with placing store in the Pope and Catholic Saints? I like St. Faustina myself and I'm LDS. Do you believe that God only performs miracles for a chosen denomination? or for all who come to God through the Son?

And what's so wrong with having a modicum of inter-denominational respect and civility? I personally find the Catholic faith very beautiful and spiritually refreshing. I also love the way the Muslims pray, bowing all the way to the ground, but I'm still LDS.

I'm not spoiling for a fight, and will even give you the benefit of the doubt that perhaps things aren't going so well for you right now and perhaps your response was just coming from a bad mood, but this was very insensitive and offensive.

[CrimsonKairos]

Insensitive? Offensive? Since when is asking a question offensive?

Yeah, I kind of have a problem with the whole Catholic concept of saints. Beatification, canonization...some requirements are a little heretical...like the candidate for beatification or canonization must intercede with God on behalf of his/her followers as evidenced by the performance of a miracle (I don't believe in praying to anyone but God and there is but one Mediator between God and man, and that is Jesus).

And sorry, OIC, but stigmata is a joke. I mean, I can stab a steak knife in my hands and feet and side and say, "Oooh, look, I'm bleeding where Christ bled, I'm special, isn't this cool?"

What in the world would God need someone to bleed like Christ for? Gimme a break. That's not a miracle...what's a miracle is that people buy into such rubbish. How is bleeding a miracle? What does it accomplish? How does it benefit man and advance God's work of salvation? Yeah, exactly.

p.s. I never once insulted Catholics or said they were going to hell, so drop the "a lil' inter-denominational respect would be great" line. Thanks. B)

[tiancum]

I believe that the stigmata is a much worse than a hoax.

Now, saying that, I also believe, and KNOW that miracles happen to any that believe.

The problem with the stigmata is that there are not 5 marks of the crucifixion. There are 7.

heavenly Father would not sponsor a miracle that is in essence a false representation of one of the most sacred things to happen in ALL of earth's history. In order for the stigmata to be real, it would have to be accurate. Rather than say real, i will say, for it to be of God. I have no doubt that it does happen. I have also had some personal experienced which make me believe that it is real, and NOT a mioracle from God.

Now....many religions are not sure whether Christ was pierced through the palms or the wrists. We are sure.

We, as LDS, have been given modern revelation on this, through our prophets, and we know.

I do not want to say much more...It is a sacred subject for me, and where I learned it is sacred to me.

I have a best friend that is eastern orth Cath. Although she is not a "Saint" yet, she is a wonderful lady. She has had many miracles happen to her. I also have a favorite "Catholic Saint". Mother Theresa. What a wonderful, beautiful woman.

My favorite 2 people in the world are indeed "saints".... My wife and my mom. Why do I call them Saints? because by direct revelation through his prophets, the Lord called them "Saints". They have a step up on mother Theresa, but she is still one of my heroes. I find it silly to pray to my mom, wife, or mother Theresa.

As far as CrimsonKairos words. he could have been a bit more diplomatic in what he said. LOL, and a bit less defensive.

[OIC]

Insensitive? Offensive? Since when is asking a question offensive?

When it's leading and combative.

Yeah, I kind of have a problem with the whole Catholic concept of saints. Beatification, canonization...some requirements are a little heretical...like the candidate for beatification or canonization must intercede with God on behalf of his/her followers as evidenced by the performance of a miracle (I don't believe in praying to anyone but God and there is but one Mediator between God and man, and that is Jesus).

I'm not trying to be sarcastic here but let me ask you this. If you are sick or something is going on in your life that you need help with, would you have a problem with asking a friend to pray for you?

In the Catholic theology, Saints do not have any powers of intercession of their own. Praying to the saints is simply asking someone to pray for you. Even in the Rosary it says "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death". This isn't asking for intercession, but for the prayers of good and holy men (and women).

It would be little different than asking Joseph Smith or Brigham Young to pray for you. You aren't assuming they have any power of intercession on their own, but just getting your name on a heavenly prayer list.

And sorry, OIC, but stigmata is a joke. I mean, I can stab a steak knife in my hands and feet and side and say, "Oooh, look, I'm bleeding where Christ bled, I'm special, isn't this cool?"

And that wouldn't be stigmata. It would be classified as "self mutilation" and you would be referred to proper psychiatric care. I never claimed that Stigmata was a miracle, I claimed that it wasn't a hoax, but psychosomatic and even gave an example of other ways people have used their mind to make their bodies do incredible things. You really can sweat blood in times of extreme stress. Is that a miracle? No, it's your bodies reaction to what your mind.

What in the world would God need someone to bleed like Christ for? Gimme a break. That's not a miracle...what's a miracle is that people buy into such rubbish. How is bleeding a miracle? What does it accomplish? How does it benefit man and advance God's work of salvation? Yeah, exactly.

There you cannot say. Who are we to speak in God's stead? If God needs someone to bleed like Christ for a purpose known only to him, who are we to demand explanation?

Let me give you an interesting parallel. The other day our microwave started acting up. Nothing serious really but just enough to scare the wife. Since it was plugged in behind the refrigerator, I had to move the fridge to unplug the microwave.

I moved the microwave to another counter, fixed it (minor problem really) and plugged it back in. We love the new place where it now sits, and has opened up a great deal of counter space.

Some "bad" things can actually be blessings, if only we can recognize them as such.

p.s. I never once insulted Catholics or said they were going to hell, so drop the "a lil' inter-denominational respect would be great" line. Thanks. B)

You very obviously have some serious issues with the Catholic faith, so I think I'll maintain the interdenominational respect line thank you, at least until you show some.

[CrimsonKairos]

I'm going to stop commenting on this thread...apparently someone with very fresh emotional wounds overreacted to my opinions of the Catholic process of beatification and canonization...not to mention stigmata.

I've got no beef with Catholics. Love 'em the same as I would love LDS, atheists, or buddhists. As for their Church (doctrines/traditions/etc...) yeah I think alot of the teachings/practices are false. They think the same about me. We can both cry ourselves to sleep about it. B)

p.s. I failed to glean anything useful from comparing stigmata to moving a problematic microwave. Nice try though, OIC. Still love ya.

[OIC]

I'm going to stop commenting on this thread...apparently someone with very fresh emotional wounds overreacted to my opinions of the Catholic process of beatification and canonization...not to mention stigmata.

I've got no beef with Catholics. Love 'em the same as I would love LDS, atheists, or buddhists. As for their Church (doctrines/traditions/etc...) yeah I think alot of the teachings/practices are false. They think the same about me. We can both cry ourselves to sleep about it. B)

Okay, I can agree to disagree.

I agree with you that I personally don't believe stigmata to be a miracle.

Please understand though, that I had no problem with your opinions, I simply had a problem with the way you presented them. In other words, it wasn't so much what you said, but the way you said them was very mocking and hurtful, and from a moderator to boot, so there were no fresh wounds or over-reaction. Okay, perhaps you did not intend your comments to be intrepted in this manner, but that's how they came through.

p.s. I failed to glean anything useful from comparing stigmata to moving a problematic microwave. Nice try though, OIC. Still love ya.

Actually it's quite simple. Something originally perceived as bad happened but something good came from it.

Peace

[CrimsonKairos]

I'm glad we're on the same page now.

[jehote]

You're LDS? And you place great store in the Pope and Catholic saints?

Stigmata is a hoax. A poor one at that. Miracles are only accomplished through the name of Jesus.

Dude, are you just screwing around with us or what?

Um yes i do beleive that the Pope is a man inspired by God. i was RAISED Catholic as i stated im my OP and i just dont throw away my faith that easy. BUT i also believe that Pres. Hinckley is a man of God as well. When the Pope passed away on Gen. Conf Weekend awhile back i remember his saying he thought the Pope was a man Inspired of God and a great leader.

Am i LDS yes i am. But i believe that LDS doesnt have the market corned on God. The faith and the BOM spoke to me at the time and i flowed with it. However i still attended Catholic church as well as LDS meetings on a regular basis.

this type of "we own god, no other religion does" is a part, a BIG part of the reason that non-lds look at you/us like we are Dee-Dee-Dee.

also, your point is clear on this and thanks so much for derailing a thread, spreading BS. and making a newer poster here feel oh so welcome! you are quite the Ambassador for the faith and the boards! Good job CK....good job........

J

[Guest MrsS]

<div class='quotemain'>

You're LDS? And you place great store in the Pope and Catholic saints?

Stigmata is a hoax. A poor one at that. Miracles are only accomplished through the name of Jesus.

Dude, are you just screwing around with us or what?

Um yes i do beleive that the Pope is a man inspired by God. i was RAISED Catholic as i stated im my OP and i just dont throw away my faith that easy. BUT i also believe that Pres. Hinckley is a man of God as well. When the Pope passed away on Gen. Conf Weekend awhile back i remember his saying he thought the Pope was a man Inspired of God and a great leader.

Am i LDS yes i am. But i believe that LDS doesnt have the market corned on God. The faith and the BOM spoke to me at the time and i flowed with it. However i still attended Catholic church as well as LDS meetings on a regular basis.

this type of "we own god, no other religion does" is a part, a BIG part of the reason that non-lds look at you/us like we are Dee-Dee-Dee.

also, your point is clear on this and thanks so much for derailing a thread, spreading BS. and making a newer poster here feel oh so welcome! you are quite the Ambassador for the faith and the boards! Good job CK....good job........

J

Actually you are a fence sitter- In My Opinion that is.

[jehote]

[

Actually you are a fence sitter- In My Opinion that is.

i see good stuff in both types. so i guess i am. or, maybe im just less close-minded than you. in my opinion that is.....

J

[Outshined]

I'd have to go with CK in that stigmata is not from God at all, any more than people seeing Mary in a piece of bread or a water stain.

[jehote]

I'd have to go with CK in that stigmata is not from God at all, any more than people seeing Mary in a piece of bread or a water stain.

But what about Mary at Lourdes in France? or is it just a sacred grove where visions can happen? back on topic, what about Padre Pio appearing and healing? or is it just Joseph Smiths bedroom that angels appear? you believe that ONLY LDS peopel have visits from heaven???? was J.S. LDS when he was visited? No. LDS didnt exist.

J

[Guest mamacat]

"The faith and the BOM spoke to me at the time and i flowed with it."

i love the way you put that Jehote. i can understand how closeness to God and JC can lead you to having faith in The Book of Mormon. and i agree, it is rather a conundrum, reveling in your newfound LDS faith, but then being expected to reject that which ultimately led you to having this faith in the first place.

in my most private moments, the cohesiveness of the Holy Spirit synthesizes it all for me.

love and light to you,

mamcat

[Outshined]

No, I don't believe Mary appeared at Lourdes, giving the water special power, nor do I believe miracles have been performed in anyone's name but Christ's.

[CrimsonKairos]

Jehote, Jehote...calm down bro. I still love ya, even if I don't buy into the hype around Catholic saints and the miracles they supposedly perform.

I'm not saying only LDS experience miracles. Of course the LDS Church doesn't have a copyright on truth, inspiration or miracles.

I'm just telling you that I don't buy into the supposed miracles the Catholic church or its members embrace so firmly. When contemplating a "miracle," I always ask, "How does it advance God's work and will?"

Seeing the Blessed Virgin's face in a grilled-cheese sandwich doesn't do jack for me or anyone else.

I think God has more important works to do than make us "oooh" and "ahhhh" at statues bleeding from their eyes and so forth.

You still attend Catholic church? I don't care, that's cool. You do know that in 2001 the Pope issued a statement saying that LDS baptisms aren't valid? Looks like the LDS Church isn't the only one convinced they have a "monopoly on God." Interesting. And yes, the Pope does good works, I never said he was the devil, so please don't stretch my original comments into a caricature you can throw rocks at. B)

[OIC]

Seeing the Blessed Virgin's face in a grilled-cheese sandwich doesn't do jack for me or anyone else.

How can you possibly know this?

Is your statement any different than saying "Wearing temple garments dosen't do jack for me or anyone else"? How can you cast judgement on that which inspires and renews one's faith in God?

I think God has more important works to do than make us "oooh" and "ahhhh" at statues bleeding from their eyes and so forth.

Such disrespect!

Sure God has better things to do than make us ooh and ahh at bleeding statues since he has to spend so much time instilling "warm fuzzy feelings" in US!

Do you see how easily your own words can be applied to your own beliefs?

Before you slam into someone elses beliefs, stop and take a look at how your own beliefs parallel theirs, then maybe it would make more sense to you.

You still attend Catholic church? I don't care, that's cool. You do know that in 2001 the Pope issued a statement saying that LDS baptisms aren't valid? Looks like the LDS Church isn't the only one convinced they have a "monopoly on God." Interesting. And yes, the Pope does good works, I never said he was the devil, so please don't stretch my original comments into a caricature you can throw rocks at. B)

I'm afraid he doesn't have to. Your doing a darn fine job of that all by yourself.

And don't take it too personally Jehote, there are jerks in all denominations and I have yet to find an LDS message board where they don't gather en masse. I thought this one was it but I see I was greviously in error.

[CrimsonKairos]

Is your statement any different than saying "Wearing temple garments dosen't do jack for me or anyone else"?

Um, yes OIC, it's very different. Sacred priesthood garments bestowed in an ordinance handed down by God Himself in the temple is a lil' different than seeing a face in your lunch food. If you can't tell that...I'm speechless.

How can you cast judgement on that which inspires and renews one's faith in God?

Has anyone here had their faith renewed in God by seeing someone's face in their food? Seriously. I'm calling you out on this OIC, because you've taken upon yourself the role of Public Defender and I think your assertions deserve to be tested. Has anyone here been inspired by seeing the face of Joseph Smith or anyone from any faith in your tortilla, or anything else like that?

Sure God has better things to do than make us ooh and ahh at bleeding statues since he has to spend so much time instilling "warm fuzzy feelings" in US!

One problem, OIC. I've given specific examples of what I don't think are miracles. I never gave examples of what I do believe are miracles. When exactly did I praise "warm fuzzy feelings?" Don't project other people's saccharine views onto me. While you may think I'm being disrespectful for disagreeing with Jehote, I at least have the decency to deal in specifics and concrete terms. Don't fabricate opinions and attribute them to me. Thank you ever so much.

Do you see how easily your own words can be applied to your own beliefs?

Again, no, because you don't know what my beliefs are. But then, you're in such a rush to appear the anti-ecumenical that you haven't taken time to ascertain just exactly what I do believe miracles consist of. That's okay, attack away OIC, and remember the story of the mote and the beam.

Before you slam into someone elses beliefs, stop and take a look at how your own beliefs parallel theirs, then maybe it would make more sense to you.

Whoa, "slam" someone else's beliefs? Why must you inject so much emotion into a simple statement of what is false? This little exchange bores me, so let me boil this down to the core issue and we can be done with it.

OIC, your comments to me can be summed up like this: "You're insensitive and rude because you won't take time to have empathy for others and try to see how they could believe something different than what you believe."

My comments can be summed up as saying this: "I don't believe x or y constitutes a miracle; I don't believe in praying to anyone but God; I don't believe in asking anyone but Jesus to intercede on my behalf with God."

Do you see your error? I never said I can't see why someone would believe what Jehote's talking about. I just said I don't believe it. I didn't say you're an idiot if you believe what Jehote's talking about. I just said it's an error to believe it. You haven't paid enough attention to my actual words as much as you have to what you think I said.

Please stop inflating this thread into a series of imaginary personal attacks that I never made. If I can't say what is true or false without having you or others construe it as a personal attack, then I guess this board will become nothing but a club for ego-strokers and sycophants.

I'm afraid he doesn't have to. Your doing a darn fine job of that all by yourself.

OIC, you might wanna call your bank and see what happened...apparently they stopped payment on your reality check. I don't know what in the world you are talking about. I suppose if I said that 2+2=4 you'd accuse me of being insensitive to those who believe 2+2=5 and being a bad example of mathematicians everywhere.

And don't take it too personally Jehote, there are jerks in all denominations and I have yet to find an LDS message board where they don't gather en masse. I thought this one was it but I see I was greviously in error.

Ah, here's something interesting. Name-calling. Typical of those with no substance to their arguments. Note it well everyone: I never called anyone a jerk or an idiot, I--the supposedly rude and disrespectful admin--never resorted to personal attacks in any of my posts. I simply explained my disagreements and gave reasoning for them.

OIC, I'll defend to the death your right to disagree with me, but show some respect. I don't appreciate being called a jerk for disagreeing with someone.

[OIC]

I have no problem with your disagreeing with someone as long as it's done in a respectful manner.

I called you a jerk because your acting like one, and this from an alleged "moderator".

If you want to ban me go ahead, it'll just prove you have two sets of rules, one for members and one for moderators. I can tell you this much, this is certainly not a place I want to hang around for very long.

If you really have a zero tolerance policy, start with your own comments.

[Palerider]

my oh my......perhaps its good advice for all parties...... B)

[CrimsonKairos]

Apparently Lord OIC didn't grant me permission to state my opinion in the way I did. A thousand apologies, my liege.

The real problem was not that OIC was offended by how I said what I said, he's offended by the substance of my posts.

Sorry, OIC, I don't believe that bleeding statues and other such things are miracles. I don't apologize for that. If anyone wasn't offended by the substance of my posts, but were offended by the way I expressed the substance of my posts, I apologize to you too. Though so far, OIC is the only one who seems to be having a hard time.

[jehote]

Well, i have decided that this isnt the place for me. i was hoping for some nice conversations but instead it has turned into a crappy cranky debate.

OIC thanks for the defense. that was nice of you.

C.K. this board comes up when i googled LDS message boards as a top 5 hit. Seeing that i was supprised only a handful of people post here. Now i know why. you tore apart my posts and looked to argue not discuss. reply if you like. i wont anymore.

J

[Gwen]

Well, i have decided that this isnt the place for me. i was hoping for some nice conversations but instead it has turned into a crappy cranky debate.

OIC thanks for the defense. that was nice of you.

C.K. this board comes up when i googled LDS message boards as a top 5 hit. Seeing that i was supprised only a handful of people post here. Now i know why. you tore apart my posts and looked to argue not discuss. reply if you like. i wont anymore.

J

this particular topic has seemed to derail a bit. but to judge the whole of the site or any one person based on one subject is a bit hasty (though i can see where you could choose to be offended). i have found this one to be very good. not perfect but i've never looked for perfection anywhere. hang around a bit, get to know folks. really is a good place over all. i think several ppl here could have addressed things a bit differently, we all have our days (and sometimes topics) that get is in mood. but then that's my opinion, take it for what it's worth.. ....the same 2 cents everyone else's here is worth i guess. lol

[Guest mamacat]

i agree with ALMom Jehote....it seems that you have some interesting things to contribute, and you are kind too. that's always a pleasure. please reconsider....this really is a fascinating place.