"i Know Its True"

[Guest mamacat]

there certainly seems to be a lot of judgement going on....about who actually experiences the holy spirit in his life. what's that about? how is it that others are so certfied to judge who has the spirit in his life and who doesn't? that for some it's God speaking, for others it's just a good feeling and then some others it's just satan makin' folly?

my mother used to attribute (and i imagine still does) all of my actions in a very condescending way -- nothing i did was the result of more than just mere, random feelings. not intellect, spiritual guidance, or any type of thought whatsoever. she took all credibility for my life away from me. i suppose she thought that was her perogative as my mother. it wasn't. whose perogative is it to judge whether we really have the holy spirit in our lives? to discount everything about a person, because he's too stupid or inept to know what he's all about?

perhaps because he's a different religion than you? a different political party? (so far it seems that most christians in my state think that only republicans are of God) a different race or gender, or generation?

baffling, i must say.

[prisonchaplain]

I'm sure PC would come in and show how similar LDS beliefs are to Christian beliefs but I read Hinckley say "No we do not worship the same Jesus." And that has been sticking with me lately. That is where my post came from.

Evangelical and LDS mores are similar. We share the Holy Bible. We address the same persons of deity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). However, on most major doctrines, there are variances. In fact, several months ago I offered a post comparing my church's Statement of Fundamental Truths with those found in the Articles of Faith (COJCLDS). The string was fairly well received, and I used it in a Sunday school class I taught.

What came out is that, while there are broad agreements we share, when it comes to specific doctrines, nearly every understanding was different.

http://www.ldstalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...ic=7471&hl=

[Dr T]

...when it comes to specific doctrines, nearly every understanding was different.

From what I'm experiencing, there are similar words but vastly different definitions of those words. Since I came here, I have seen the "How wide the divide" book posted by you and a consistent attempt to show similarities between LDS and Christian belief. That is why I posted the above.

[CrimsonKairos]

PC, I get your point.

All I was saying was that Jesus taught that Satan wouldn't cast out devils because he'd be fighting against himself. I see a similarity between that and the current discussion, though the wheat and tares certainly is an apt parable as well.

So here's the question. Are LDS tares? Really, I'm serious. Do the LDS Church's teachings and programs draw people away from God? Do they subvert faith in Jesus?

If not, and if all that's required for salvation is faith in Jesus and confessing his name, then how is the LDS Church in any way an unknowing wolf in sheep's clothing? How do the LDS Church's teachings scatter the flock and ruin the fold of God?

[prisonchaplain]

...when it comes to specific doctrines, nearly every understanding was different.

From what I'm experiencing, there are similar words but vastly different definitions of those words. Since I came here, I have seen the "How wide the divide" book posted by you and a consistent attempt to show similarities between LDS and Christian belief. That is why I posted the above.

I like to see bridges of similarity wherever I can. However, even the book you reference came with a joint conclusion that Mormons and evangelicals will not soon be sharing one another's pulpits (lecturns) nor sacraments, and they will continue to lobby one another to "come over," each believing that their beliefs systems more closely reflect the truth and revelation of God.

[prisonchaplain]

So here's the question. Are LDS tares? Really, I'm serious. Do the LDS Church's teachings and programs draw people away from God? Do they subvert faith in Jesus?

If not, and if all that's required for salvation is faith in Jesus and confessing his name, then how is the LDS Church in any way an unknowing wolf in sheep's clothing? How do the LDS Church's teachings scatter the flock and ruin the fold of God?

Snow asked me a different, but ultimately relevent question: what of the sincere believer in Christ, who, do to lack of education, or lack of access to true teaching, embraces a overly vague, or even somewhat erroneous understanding of God/Christ's nature, etc.?

How wrong can one be about God, and still be okay in his sight. Cain's sacrifice was overly innovative. He would not respond to the voice of God, and continued with his own religion.

My answer to Snow was that the ultimate sin--the unforgivable one--is to reject, to willfully and repeatedly ignore, or to invent the voice of God--the drawing of the Holy Spirit. Now, that voice can come through Scripture study, through hearing scriptural teaching, and through direct prayer and communion with God.

So, if evangelicals, or Catholics, or the COJCLDS are dead-on right, how far away would we get before the Holy Spirit would beckon, warn, convict us? Would we respond? Would we let pride deafen us. Would we get angry and rebuke that voice as false?

People to convert into and out of your church every day. Likewise Catholicism...likewise evangelicalism. Catholics describe evangelicals as "separated bretheren." Our priest here described LDS theology by saying, "I love it...it's so beautiful." Obviously he does not agree with it...but he finds it attractive.

So, point by point, we would disagree on most doctrines. Yet, we both like and respect each other (as far as electronic communication allows us to). You see no need to oppose the AOG Church, and I don't go around with protest signs, either. Yet, I believe you would rejoice if I prayed the prayer and testified that I found Joseph Smith's revelations to be true, by the witness of the Spirit. LIkewise, yes, I'd probably find it gratifying to here that you'd been baptized in the Holy Ghost, had never felt so close to God and so free in your communion with him, and had decided to join the nearest AOG church.

Bottom line: I do not believe you are a tare. Some of your church's doctrines appear to be, from my pov. And, while I'll not exaggerate the oft-repeated quote of Joseph Smith about other churches, suffice to say he felt the same way about many of our doctrines (i.e. the Nicene Creed).

Now, imho, my answer is both fair and reasonable.

[CrimsonKairos]

You rock, PC.

You bring up something I've been thinking about lately in terms of this discussion.

From day one, Joseph Smith taught that God was displeased with the sects of Christianity. To be specific, Christ said their creeds were an abomination in his sight.

Whether you believe the First Vision happened or not, the "insult" was issued by Joseph Smith and Christianity will never forgive LDS Christians for that.

That's one of the main reasons I think there's opposition to the LDS Church.

[Dr T]

Your right CK. PC and you both rock.

[prisonchaplain]

Joseph Smith, whether by revelation or not, did for your church, what Jewish leadership did to Christians around 70AD. He transformed the COJCLDS from another restoration Christian group, into a separate religion that happened to share the same personalities and stories (Bible). For most of the church's 180 years this dilineation was clear, and mutually acceptable.

In the last generation or so, there has been so effort to maintain LDS distinctives (including the restoration doctrine that stems from Joseph's teaching that all the Christian sects were wrong), while at the same time seeking greating interaction and even acceptance from the larger Christian world.

Some have been encouraged by the development. President Mouw (Fuller Seminary) is probably the most well known and controversial proponent increased dialogue.

Others see the LDS efforts much as some Jews see efforts by "Messianic Jews"--an effort to subvert and transform orthodoxy.

Much as wheat and tares will remain with us until the 2nd coming, so, those who welcome intelligent "interfaith" conversation, and those who reject such as "unequally yoked fellowship," and who insist the only aim of such conversations should be direct and immediate conversion of the heretic.

BTW, I've noticed from the personalities here, that some LDS rather preferred the old clear lines too. There was less hostility when the separation was clearer. Dialogue about religious differences can easily lead to offense, and some prefer not to enter it.

IMHO, those who Jesus told us to flush out as wolves in sheeps clothing are not other sects we disagree with, but rather members within our own congregations who would attempt to sow dissension (whether doctrinal, procedural, or simply over personalities).

[CrimsonKairos]

Good points, PC.

I think more and more LDS Christians and non-LDS Christians are beginning to say, "Okay, you may want me to join your church, and I may want you to join mine, but if we're both trying to serve the same God then we might as well not waste our efforts emphasizing our differences and instead, we might as well see if we can build bridges of communication which will lead--if not to conversion--at least to Christian fellowship as the Lord would want his disciples to be doing."

That there's a lot of words to put in people's mouths, but I see a trend that supports it. The old animosities and distrust are hard to kill, though...

[Dr T]

I've enjoyed the fellowship since day one. The more I grow in my understanding of God, the more differences I see in our beliefs. The idea that we worship the same God is the bottom line question. I wonder if that is true sometimes.

[CrimsonKairos]

Keep studying. You'll figure it out. B)

[prisonchaplain]

I've enjoyed the fellowship since day one. The more I grow in my understanding of God, the more differences I see in our beliefs. The idea that we worship the same God is the bottom line question. I wonder if that is true sometimes.

You ought to read The New Mormon Challenge. It's a strictly evangelical look at LDS theology, but one that is scholarly, yet approachable. Additionally, the authors take into account recent LDS scholarly interactions with traditional Christian theology.

http://www.amazon.com/New-Mormon-Challenge...h/dp/0310231949

And the reviews of FAIR: http://www.fairlds.org/New_Mormon_Challenge/

[Dr T]

That sounds great. I would be interested in reading that. Thank you PC. :)

[Guest mamacat]

i'm sorry if my point of view offends anyone, but there is a spirituality infused with Christ and his words in LDS that is not present in other 'sects' of christianity. the holy spirit is strong in this faith and affects lives in a most powerful and direct way. this is because it is founded upon Christ's Love...the love that he taught us that is boundless and ceaseless from our Heavenly Father. the love that is always ours to be blessed with, from a limitless source.

in my experience, this is not the context of other christian thought. it isn't my intention to be critical of other christians, but to express why i find truth in the LDS faith. the faith in the powerful guidance of the holy spirit is so strong....knowing that we have the love of Jesus in our hearts and the guidance of the holy spirit in our souls is the main requirement that LDS asks us to partake of. beyond this, once it is conveyed, our relationship is then with God. we pray to God for knowledge and understanding, we can seek further guidance from Him through those whose spirit is closely in tune with him, from church leaders, relief society sisters, and preiesthood members. God's help is available in a myriad of forms, and at times the wise and gentle counsel of a kind sister is a manifestation of God's assistance, as is the strength and power elicited by a priesthood blessing.

this is what LDS is all about, and it's nothing like anything else i've ever seen of other christian thought. it is not divisive or intolerant. LDS people of course are flawed as humans are. but God spoke through Joseph Smith...and infused him with the holy spirit for the guidance of men. men are not perfect, but with God's guidance help direct us toward the perfection of our Father and Christ in heaven, and this i've found to be the main purpose of LDS.

this is what LDS is all about. there is nothing in other sects of christianity that exhibit this. i am not an apologist for LDS, i am rather an advocate of it, of the reality of the spirit in it, as not present in other brands of christianity.

with LDS, we have the reality of accessing the life and power that God intends for us each individually. i would submit that the other religions criticizing this are fearful of losing their power of control, and therefore make the loudest noise about satan being an author of LDS doctrine. if something is very true, and stands to confer great empowerment and change in the lives of men, then it will be met with the most opposition. after all, look at what they did to Jesus. His love changed the world, turned temporal authority upside down on its head, and caused outrage in every quarter of authority during his tenure here. he's still doing it too. and the protest remains loud and insistent, but never will be it stifled or repressed. God knows, sees and hears all. and His hand is ever present in our lives.

i am ever grateful that He allows us to understand this, through the voice of Joseph Smith and the LDS.

[ldsrebel]

My main problems have been with family.

For half my life all was..ok.

Then my grandmother got cancer for the second time.....

She wound up passing away and life took a turn for the worst.

We wound up ripping people from our lifes because they were betraying our trust.

Making wild claims about what we did with our Grandmother's money and such.

When that had quieted and it seemed to be getting better the ground was ripped out from under me again. This time my father.

He had his second, fatal, heart attack.

For three days my friend Katy stayed by my side while I fought with myself.

Why?

How?

When I finnaly felt strong enough she went to her family.

I could move again but the void was still there.

Another friend and our remaining Aunt and Uncle took care of us for the time being...

During this time my mom was like a ghost...there in body...only in body.

Soon I started getting stronger and things started quieting.

My mom became stronger too, determened to solder on.

But somthing was missing....

I thought it was impossible to fill the empty space my dad had once filled.

But then we started going to church again.

Over time I healed, true I'll never forget my dad but I will move on.

I'll work at doing God's will so that I may see him again.

I now realize that God is always there, silent and unmovable.

Whispering to us. telling us to be strong...

Without the church I'd be in a very dark place....

[Dr T]

Thank you Cat.

I am rather an advocate of it, of the reality of the spirit in it, as not present in other brands of Christianity.

I would contend that Christianity has that.

i would submit that the other religions criticizing this are fearful of losing their power of control, and therefore make the loudest noise about satan being an author of LDS doctrine. if something is very true, and stands to confer great empowerment and change in the lives of men, then it will be met with the most opposition. after all, look at what they did to Jesus. His love changed the world, turned temporal authority upside down on its head, and caused outrage in every quarter of authority during his tenure here. he's still doing it too. and the protest remains loud and insistent, but never will be it stifled or repressed. God knows, sees and hears all. and His hand is ever present in our lives.

It is not a fear of losing "power of control." Other religions have also met opposition. That does not make something true/correct.

[Guest mamacat]

sorry Dr. T, those are my thoughts. i'm sure that those of other religions would consider me not educated enough in the ways of Christ. precisely the reason i find LDS true where others aren't. there is not the arrogance and superiority there. LDS just asks me know that Christ is in my heart, and feel Him there.

[Dr T]

No problems Cat. That's what we're here for-to share our thoughts. Thanks :)

[prisonchaplain]

It is not uncommon for people of faith to have a particular love for their own fellowships. Ironically, mamaCat sounds almost pentecostal in her description of the LDS faith--reliance on the Spirit, the strong sense of God's presence, etc.

Baptists often wax poetic about their love for God's Word, and how nobody defends the Bible with the same passion they do.

Presbyterians a very strong about doing things "decently and in order." Their education programs are strong and disciplined.

Who can beat the Salvation Army for serving "the least of these?"

On I could go.

I will tell you that when I first entered my fellowships seminary, which was located in our headquarters building at the time, I sensed such a powerful presence of God's Spirit. My guess is that most of you would have been nonplussed to see our flagship school on the 5/6th floors of the church's publishing plant! :-)

[Guest mamacat]

nice observation prison chaplain. i keep wondering about this phenomenon of the spirit....i really think it has to do with prayer. i think i learned about the power of prayer from growing up in the catholic church. attendance every sunday, catholic school through 6th grade.

i learned about miracles in this sense as well. one day i was riding my horse on property a long way from our home. i saw a nest of brand new baby birds on the ground and jumped down to look at them more closely, wrapping my pony's reins around a tree branch. i looked up to see her galloping far off in the distance. i panicked! it would take forever to walk home and my irresponsibility would be very ill received. i was following her, but she was almost out of my eyesight, running as fast as she could. so i said a quick prayer in ernest ~ dear God, please give her the instinct to stop right now and let me back up on her. at that very moment she stopped. she stood still the entire, long time, it took me to walk up to her, and allowed me back up on her without moving. she was always very stubborn, and never would allow me to approach her even in her corral, unless i secured her in a small fenced area. to this day, this is a miracle of such magnitude to me.

i have studied and followed taosim, buddhism, kabbala....to name but a few traditions in my spiritual repertoire. and i've always recognized the power of prayer. i had a simple altar in my room when i was a very little girl, with holy water, a rosary, a crucifix and a prayer book. i have kept that tradition. i keep an altar in my home with candles. (most chirstians i know would consider that so evil!!) i prayed there every night, during a time in the last year, for spiritual guidance. when i spoke with my missionaries i knew that their presence was an answer to my prayer, and i try to stay on the path that i ask for guidance with in prayer. so even though it hasn't been easy, i try to stay with the guidance that i ask for from the spirit.

a passage from my book (such an awesome book) Six Transcendent Events (Stephen Covey) gives expression to my thoughts about this~

in the words of one convert:

when the gift of the holy ghost was bestowed upon me, it literally felt like going from the dark of night into the light for the first time. that was one thing i really prayed hard about: that Father in Heaven would help me feel the Spirit, help me to know that he was there. after the missionaries blessed me with the gift of the holy ghost, all the gospel priniciples became clear in my mind and easier to understand, whereas before it was like a fog.

[Gabelma]

My take is I am not going to knock anyone who has had revelation from God - but I know I am in the right place when I go to church and as such I have to accept 'the church is true' whether or not its because that is because it where I can best know God - or because it what God wants for anyone is where my testimony sometimes wobbles a bit.

Like Mamacat I have a varied background and came via various forms of Christianity, Hinduism and Pagan faiths I love the way I can incorporate a lot of the things I have learned and still have Christ as my saviour.

I don't think it matters which faith we follow we pray to and worship the same God that God will guide us the best way for us if we listen (I know some people find that view offensive sorry if you are one of them)

Charley

[Dr T]

I for one do not believe all religions worship the same God. I know you didn't say "all."

[LukeAir2006]

:)

[Dr T]

Thank you Luke. I understand the LDS can but the question is, "Can God?"