The "real" Jesus

[Jason]

My friends,

In my discussions on another private message board, I found myself defending the non-traditional christian position regarding Jesus. I thought that I would share with you my response to this individual. I hope you find it enlightening:

"NAME,

I realize that this thread has long since left our earlier discussions. But I would like to discuss your belief that Mormons and Witnesses don't believe in the "real" Jesus.

When discussing Jesus, we have two things to discuss, his historicity and his divinity. I think that most christians tend to ignore the first and overemphasize the latter. Here's what I mean:

When a Christian makes the claim that Mormons and Witnesses don't believe in the real Jesus, they think they are crazy. It makes no sense to them. The reason for that is that Mormons and Witnesses DO believe in the same Jesus as traditional Christianity. But the shared similiarity is in his HISTORICITY. We all believe that he was born of the Virgin Mary, raised by a carpenter, and fulfilled his mission on the cross and his subsequent resurrection. Therefore, all believe in the same Jesus.

On the other hand, as to Christ's divinity, we differ doctrinally. Traditional Christianity accepts the TRINITY doctrine, while Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Christ and the Father are two different individuals. (Mormons go a bit further with their concepts of the godhead, but that's another topic.) It is more accurate for Christians to say that Mormons and Witnesses believe differently concerning Jesus' divinity, than to make a blanket accusation that they believe in a different Jesus entirely.

That said, let's discuss your theory that a belief or non-belief in the trinity determine's ones future in heaven or hell. You seem to believe (and correct me if Im wrong) that if you don't accept the traditional understanding of Christ's divinity, that you are damned. But I ask you, is that to be found in holy writ? The answer as you can probably guess is a resounding "NO". The reason? If a knowledge of the trinity was THE determining factor for a life of salvation or damnation, then what of the child who dies without a correct understanding the trinity doctrine? Let's say that this child believed in Jesus as much as a young child can, but lacked the mental capacity to understand a doctrine that the great theologians stuggled with for hundreds of years? Under your belief system, this child would then be consigned to the flames of hell. Is that your idea of a loving Father in Heaven? Is that what Christ meant when he said "Unless a man become as a little child, he can in no wise enter the kingdom of heaven"?

If it is unjust to damn a child for their incorrect understanding, then what of an adult? Few people can claim the intellictual abilities of the great theologians of centuries past. (I know that I cannot.) If they simply cannot understand this doctrine, are they then damned? What of the early christians who had little or no understanding of the trinity as we know it today? They are the ones who died in the stadiums for Jesus! Will he reject their sacrifice because they failed to grasp his true identity as three in one! GOD FORBID!

I hope and pray that your mind may be opened to this understanding. For you to state otherwise is cruelty in the extreme.

Jason

[Guest Starsky]

That was great ExMJason...Thanks for sharing.

[Snow]

Jason,

First, did you really give away your entire Mormon library?

Second, has this newfound sensitivity and gentleness affected your telemarketing success?

Third, nice post, but I think the point about the child is unnecessary. Essentially the same argument is used for a child who dies without ever having heard of Christ or even an adult who has had no adequate opportunity to hear the gospel and accept it. The crux of the matter, from the "faith-only" side is: Is salvation by faith only, or is salvation by faith PLUS?... in this case faith plus correct doctrine.

[Jason]

Snow,

"First, did you really give away your entire Mormon library?"

All but a couple books: Mormon Doctrine, The Great Apostasy, Apostasy From the Divine Church, No Man Knows My History, Jesus Was Married, The History Of The Saints (Bennett), The Notes (fundamentalist publication), Divergent Paths Of The Restoration, and, of course, my Quad and old missionary scriptures.

"Second, has this newfound sensitivity and gentleness affected your telemarketing success?"

Actually, I got out of the telemarketing business last November. I know work as a computer tech here in Evanston.

"Third, nice post, but I think the point about the child is unnecessary. Essentially the same argument is used for a child who dies without ever having heard of Christ or even an adult who has had no adequate opportunity to hear the gospel and accept it. The crux of the matter, from the "faith-only" side is: Is salvation by faith only, or is salvation by faith PLUS?... in this case faith plus correct doctrine."

Well, you know me, always appealing to emotion....That's why you're the debater, not me.

Jason

[Outshined]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Mar 25 2004, 12:00 AM

Actually, I got out of the telemarketing business last November. I know work as a computer tech here in Evanston.

Nice career move! You went from being someone everyone hates to someone nearly everyone needs. LOL

I speak as an avowed nerd with a Computer Science degree who can't stand telemarketing..............

[AFDaw]

I know several Non-Mormon Christians who also believe that Jesus and Heavenly Father are 2 seperate beings.

[Faerie]

Even if I were to ever leave the Church (not foreseeing this happening in the next 100 years) I would never be able to understand or accept the Trinity. It logically does not make sense to me. You have so many instances in the Bible alone where there is a distinct seperation (Christ's baptism, Christ's resurrection,Stephen's vision, etc) that I can't comprehend that they are the same person.

My husband pointed out something the other night as we always discuss this.

In the Bible, it speaks of a man and woman coming together as one flesh, as one body in marriage. How is THAT possible physically? Well you have children and it becomes so. Other than that, it's a principle. We are one in purpose, in unity, in strength. We are seperate individuals with our own thoughts, feelings, interpretations..but in our marriage we are one and cannot be seperated or distinguished.

It's the same with God the Father and God the Son. My best friend converted to Lutheran a year or so ago. And we got into this discussion. Her problem was calling two seperate people "God." as that would indicate that there is more than one "God." So therefore they HAD to be the same person because otherwise, you're worshipping more than one "God" The conversation finally ended with a "we'll just have to see" as that's the only conclusion we could come to.

But yeah, am I going to hell because I can't logically think of the implications and imperfections of the Trinity?

[inactivetx]

After reading much LDS perspectives on the Trinity - including this and other boards, many Mormons don't understand the mainstream concept of the term. As an Epsicopalian/inactiveLDS who has seen both sides, I'll try and explain

There is much talk of the Father and Jesus being separate persons. Duh MC (Mainstream Christians) believe they are separate persons as well - who was running the universe while Jesus was on earth? Who spoke at Jesus' baptism? Who raised Jesus from the dead? Thus, I believe LDS needs to put less emphasis on the separate persons thing.

What separates the MC version from the LDS version is time. MC believes

1 - God always existed - there has never been nor never will a time when GOD does not exist

2 - God has always been the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. None of the members of the Godhead were ever created (yet one died and was resurrected as a result of being translated into a God-man) - Just as GOD has always existed, all three members of the Godhead have no beginning nor end

3 - As for the natures of the Godhead - here is a rather exhaustive statement:

Quicunque Vult commonly called

"The Creed of Saint Athanasius"

Whosoever will be saved,

before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith.

Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled,

without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

And the Catholic Faith is this:

That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity,

neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance.

For there is one Person of the Father,

another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost.

But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost,

is all one, the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal.

Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost.

The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate.

The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible.

The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal.

And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal.

As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated,

but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible.

So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty.

And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God.

And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord.

And yet not three Lords, but one Lord.

For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity

to acknowledge every Person by himself to be both God and Lord,

So are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion, to say,

There be three Gods, or three Lords.

The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten.

The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten.

The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son,

neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons;

one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts.

And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other; none is greater, or less than another;

But the whole three Persons are co-eternal together and co-equal.

So that in all things, as is aforesaid,

the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly

the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess,

that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man;

God, of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds;

and Man, of the Substance of his Mother, born in the world;

Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting;

Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead;

and inferior to the Father, as touching his Manhood.

Who although he be God and Man, yet he is not two, but one Christ;

One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh,

but by taking of the Manhood into God;

One altogether, not by confusion of Substance, but by unity of Person.

For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ;

Who suffered for our salvation,

descended into hell,

rose again the third day from the dead.

He ascended into heaven,

he sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty,

from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies

and shall give account for their own works.

And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting,

and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

This is the Catholic Faith,

which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.

LDS Concept of the Trinity differs from MC in that:

1 - Jesus was a created being, thus did not always exist and was inducted into the Godhead. So the Godhead evolved to incoporate Jesus

2 - According to the Plan of Salvation as I understand it (correct me if I am wrong), our God the Father also followed his own Plan and thus even the Father wasn't always God, but always will be on the basis of our relationship to Him.

3 - While we will never aspire to be a member of the Godhead, the ability to become godlike is a noble goal.

These three concepts are what offends Mainstream Christianity.

Now, personally I have never subscribed to the Trinity and I'll save my impressions for another post - if anyone is interested.

[Setheus]

Isn't "InactiveX" a double negitive?

And I think that if you are so bent on being inactive that you would call yourself

so double ie, inactive & X, BUT you still come to associate with LDS, then perhaps you aren't as sure about the plan of salvation as you pretend to be.

Fast, pray, choose the right.

[inactivetx]

Originally posted by Setheus@Mar 25 2004, 12:31 PM

Isn't "InactiveX" a double negitive?

And I think that if you are so bent on being inactive that you would call yourself

so double ie, inactive & X, BUT you still come to associate with LDS, then perhaps you aren't as sure about the plan of salvation as you pretend to be.

Fast, pray, choose the right.

This is the second time someone here commented on my username.

Actually it is inactiveTX as in I am from Texas and am an Inactive LDS.

Hope that clears up some confusion.

I wish I was as clever as you all think I am

[Snow]

Jason,

then good luck with the new job. I have all the books you mentioned except Jesus Was Married, The Notes (fundamentalist publication), Divergent Paths Of The Restoration. Actually I don't have a quad. My old D&C only goes up to section 136

[Jason]

Snow,

You can pick up all the ones you don't have from ebornbooks.com.

The new job is going well, but I've got a few problems today with this darn motherboard that won't recognize the onboard LAN.

It's a new world, but at least it's never dull....

[Snow]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Mar 26 2004, 12:22 PM

The new job is going well, but I've got a few problems today with this darn motherboard that won't recognize the onboard LAN.

Sounds like the Evangelicals and the Mormons.

One day, I hope and pray, all motherboards and LANs will join in harmony...

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Faerie@Mar 25 2004, 07:12 AM

...I would never be able to understand or accept the Trinity. It logically does not make sense to me......that I can't comprehend that they are the same person.

That's because they are NOT the same person.

For there is one Person of the Father,

another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost.

Her problem was calling two seperate people "God." as that would indicate that there is more than one "God". So therefore they HAD to be the same person because otherwise, you're worshipping more than one "God".

Wrong.

But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost,

is all one, the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal.

The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal.

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God.

And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity

to acknowledge every Person by himself to be both God and Lord,

You are correct Faerie you are not able to understand the doctrine. I don't fully understand it but what I do understand I do accept. And thanks inactivetx for "The Creed of Saint Athanasius". I've copied it for myself. The best part of the creed is this:

… that we believe and confess,

that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man;

God, of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds;

and Man, of the Substance of his Mother, born in the world;

Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting;

Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead;

and inferior to the Father, as touching his Manhood.

Who although he be God and Man, yet he is not two, but one Christ;

One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh,

but by taking of the Manhood into God;

One altogether, not by confusion of Substance, but by unity of Person.

For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ;

M.