Becoming Like God

[The Folk Prophet]

I am not arguing that they are not in the presence of God, I agree with that.  That isn't the point.  Traveler is trying to say that everyone that comes to this world becomes spiritually corrupted just by the process of leaving the presence of God.  I am saying that they are alive in Christ, they are kept from that corruption, they are protected from the effects of that separation. What power does the presence of God have that the presence of Christ cannot give?

There are many quotes from the brotheren that state that children are untainted from this experience.  They do not experience a spiritual fall. If they do not become tainted by this experience and they remain pure, how is it that they suffer spiritually?  Yes, they obtain corrupted physical bodies but the power of Satan has no influence on them.  That is a fact.

 

I agree with you. But they still need the atonement because of spiritual and physical death. Spiritual corruption is something else entirely and impossible before accountability kicks in.

[faith4]

I consider that to be without the Father to be a spiritial corruption.  When Jesus was on the cross he cried out (in verse 46 of Chater 27 of Matthew

 

Not only did Jesus sacrifice his physical body (death) he sacrificed his spirit as well (second death) when he was spiritually forsaken of his Father - The atonement was both physical and spiritual and was necessary that he can confort, forgive and raise us up in all things that we suffer.  Just as he was able to raise up his physical he was able to raise up his spirit as well having power over death.  The atonement of Christ was infinite - meaning in part, not just physical.

 

Jesus never truly felt abandoned by the Father, He was trying to recite Psalm 22, the prayer of an innocent person.  It begins as a lament, but ends in praise of God, and there are several verses in the Psalm which allude to Jesus' Passion and crucifixion. 

[Traveler]

I am not arguing that they are not in the presence of God, I agree with that.  That isn't the point.  Traveler is trying to say that everyone that comes to this world becomes spiritually corrupted just by the process of leaving the presence of God.  I am saying that they are alive in Christ, they are kept from that corruption, they are protected from the effects of that separation. What power does the presence of God have that the presence of Christ cannot give?

There are many quotes from the brotheren that state that children are untainted from this experience.  They do not experience a spiritual fall. If they do not become tainted by this experience and they remain pure, how is it that they suffer spiritually?  Yes, they obtain corrupted physical bodies but the power of Satan has no influence on them.  That is a fact.

 

To say that children are untainted from their experiences prior to reaching the age of accountability is as naïve as it is incorrect to my understanding of things.  There is without question spiritual reasons and benefit to children for their spiritual care and teaching.  If children were unaffected then child abuse would not be a sin or even a problem as long as there was no physical damage to the child.  I will not accept your arguments without empirical proof – your quoiting scripture to that end means nothing of any value to me.  Perhaps if you could give me an example of a child that was significantly abused prior to being of the age of accountability that because of the light of Christ had no ill spiritual effect as an adult.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I agree with you. But they still need the atonement because of spiritual and physical death. Spiritual corruption is something else entirely and impossible before accountability kicks in.

Yes, that is what I have been saying.

[Seminarysnoozer]

To say that children are untainted from their experiences prior to reaching the age of accountability is as naïve as it is incorrect to my understanding of things.  There is without question spiritual reasons and benefit to children for their spiritual care and teaching.  If children were unaffected then child abuse would not be a sin or even a problem as long as there was no physical damage to the child.  I will not accept your arguments without empirical proof – your quoiting scripture to that end means nothing of any value to me.  Perhaps if you could give me an example of a child that was significantly abused prior to being of the age of accountability that because of the light of Christ had no ill spiritual effect as an adult.

You have to define what you mean by "spiritual effect".  To me, spiritual effect means something that is 'written in the heart'.  It is a permanent state of mind, a change in ones spiritual character.  Yes, there are challenges in this life that are intended to strengthen our spiritual character as harsh as that may seem. If one turns to the Lord because of these challenges then their spiritual character will improve, not be corrupted.  If, however, once they are accountable for their choices, they choose to take those experiences and tell their self that they are affected by it, they internalize it and they develop despair saying to their self, 'I am this way because of my past' then they have lost hope.  Losing hope, or in other words 'despair', becomes a spiritual mark that can continue beyond the physical death.  This is why faith hope and charity are the most important spiritual characteristics to maintain despite whatever life throws at us.  The choice between hope and despair occurs after the age of accountability.  If that is the challenge God gave that individual then they have to do their best just like anyone else with any other challenge, it is no different.

 

For example, if one is born with the genetic predisposition for bipolar disorder, they can have those characteristics before the age of 8.  Even if they were to have an episode of mania or depression and it caused them to not act their self, there is no spiritual effect.  If a young man (less than 8) has Tourette's syndrome and yells out some explitives during primary there is no spiritual effect on that young man.  If when older that same boy learns to like the explitives and does not maintain hope, then it becomes something that is in the heart and not just a part of the temporary physical state.

 

Paul did not leave this world with the "thorn in the flesh" even though he couldn't get rid of it during this life.  We all have "thorns in the flesh" of which we cannot get rid of while we are "in the flesh".  That is supposed to be the challenge of this life.  Nobody has a perfect body yet while in mortality.  They are different challenges.  It does not become a permanent = spiritual, feature of our character unless we choose to make it such. Personally, I think this is the same challenge people that have same gender attraction face.  Their spirit can be one thing and their body another.  They choose which to follow even though they cannot get rid of the influences of the body while here, they were born that way.  Whether one accepts that as self or not is still a choice once old enough to make that choice.

 

A child who is abused before the age of 8 will have psychological damage which is a physical trait, not spiritual.  The wiring of the brain is affected by the abuse, again a physical body trait.  How they deal with the "thorn in the flesh" when responsible is no different than any other challenge. Learning to depend on spiritual influences over physical ones (i.e.- learning wisdom in our youth) will affect how a person chooses when they become responsible.  We teach our chidlren righteousness so they will be prepared for those choices when they become responsible for them, they will be more likely to choose spiritual influences over physical ones.

[Traveler]

You have to define what you mean by "spiritual effect".  To me, spiritual effect means something that is 'written in the heart'.  It is a permanent state of mind, a change in ones spiritual character.  Yes, there are challenges in this life that are intended to strengthen our spiritual character as harsh as that may seem. If one turns to the Lord because of these challenges then their spiritual character will improve, not be corrupted.  If, however, once they are accountable for their choices, they choose to take those experiences and tell their self that they are affected by it, they internalize it and they develop despair saying to their self, 'I am this way because of my past' then they have lost hope.  Losing hope, or in other words 'despair', becomes a spiritual mark that can continue beyond the physical death.  This is why faith hope and charity are the most important spiritual characteristics to maintain despite whatever life throws at us.  The choice between hope and despair occurs after the age of accountability.  If that is the challenge God gave that individual then they have to do their best just like anyone else with any other challenge, it is no different.

 

For example, if one is born with the genetic predisposition for bipolar disorder, they can have those characteristics before the age of 8.  Even if they were to have an episode of mania or depression and it caused them to not act their self, there is no spiritual effect.  If a young man (less than 8) has Tourette's syndrome and yells out some explitives during primary there is no spiritual effect on that young man.  If when older that same boy learns to like the explitives and does not maintain hope, then it becomes something that is in the heart and not just a part of the temporary physical state.

 

Paul did not leave this world with the "thorn in the flesh" even though he couldn't get rid of it during this life.  We all have "thorns in the flesh" of which we cannot get rid of while we are "in the flesh".  That is supposed to be the challenge of this life.  Nobody has a perfect body yet while in mortality.  They are different challenges.  It does not become a permanent = spiritual, feature of our character unless we choose to make it such. Personally, I think this is the same challenge people that have same gender attraction face.  Their spirit can be one thing and their body another.  They choose which to follow even though they cannot get rid of the influences of the body while here, they were born that way.  Whether one accepts that as self or not is still a choice once old enough to make that choice.

 

A child who is abused before the age of 8 will have psychological damage which is a physical trait, not spiritual.  The wiring of the brain is affected by the abuse, again a physical body trait.  How they deal with the "thorn in the flesh" when responsible is no different than any other challenge. Learning to depend on spiritual influences over physical ones (i.e.- learning wisdom in our youth) will affect how a person chooses when they become responsible.  We teach our chidlren righteousness so they will be prepared for those choices when they become responsible for them, they will be more likely to choose spiritual influences over physical ones.

I honestly do not know what you mean by spirit.  It appears to me you are talking in circles and speaking of things that have no meaning in the context of our discussion.  Like - What is written in the heart???  Why is that any different than wiring of the brain?  My point has to do with what effects the spirit.  It appears to me that the fall – being spiritually separated from the Father which is spiritual death is something that affects the spirit.  The scriptures tell us the Lucifer was "perfect" in the beginning.  But something went wrong with him - not physically wrong but spiritually wrong. 

 

If it were not for the atonement of Christ all would be subject to Satan – that very Satan that was once Lucifer a very son of the morning.   All are fallen and would remain so forever if not for the atonement of Christ.  Your insistence that we really do not become fallen until we reach the age of accountability makes no sense to me – and I believe that all your references to scriptures and comments by brethren appear to be to be completely out of context – that because of the fall we are subject to Satan and will remain forever subject to Satan except for the atonement of Christ.  If you remove the context of the atonement of Christ there is no salvation for even children but in the context of the atonement of Christ even the most crimson and awful sins of anyone covered by the atonement will be pure and clean – as much or more than any spirit that ever fell and became mortal – for whatever amount of time.  And I do not believe that does not mean that their spirit was never affected because something else was written on their hearts. 

 

The purification of spirits that fall and come to earth is not about what was “written in their hearts in the pre-existence”.   It is rather 100% contingent on the atonement of Christ and what is changed by that atonement.  Anyway that is I what I believe and what I believe is the proper context of what is pure.  It does not have anything to do with what we were born with (be it intelligence or smarts, or an exceptional spirit or whatever) but rather has everything to do with the atonement of Christ and what that atonement makes pure.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I honestly do not know what you mean by spirit.  It appears to me you are talking in circles and speaking of things that have no meaning in the context of our discussion.  Like - What is written in the heart???  Why is that any different than wiring of the brain?  My point has to do with what effects the spirit.  It appears to me that the fall – being spiritually separated from the Father which is spiritual death is something that affects the spirit.  The scriptures tell us the Lucifer was "perfect" in the beginning.  But something went wrong with him - not physically wrong but spiritually wrong. 

 

If it were not for the atonement of Christ all would be subject to Satan – that very Satan that was once Lucifer a very son of the morning.   All are fallen and would remain so forever if not for the atonement of Christ.  Your insistence that we really do not become fallen until we reach the age of accountability makes no sense to me – and I believe that all your references to scriptures and comments by brethren appear to be to be completely out of context – that because of the fall we are subject to Satan and will remain forever subject to Satan except for the atonement of Christ.  If you remove the context of the atonement of Christ there is no salvation for even children but in the context of the atonement of Christ even the most crimson and awful sins of anyone covered by the atonement will be pure and clean – as much or more than any spirit that ever fell and became mortal – for whatever amount of time.  And I do not believe that does not mean that their spirit was never affected because something else was written on their hearts. 

 

The purification of spirits that fall and come to earth is not about what was “written in their hearts in the pre-existence”.   It is rather 100% contingent on the atonement of Christ and what is changed by that atonement.  Anyway that is I what I believe and what I believe is the proper context of what is pure.  It does not have anything to do with what we were born with (be it intelligence or smarts, or an exceptional spirit or whatever) but rather has everything to do with the atonement of Christ and what that atonement makes pure.

There is a huge difference between desires of the heart and what our fallen brains do.  We are dual beings.  I know this is hard for most to comprehend but this is our gospel.  We have a spiritual nature and a physical nature.  They are not matched while in this life.  This is obvious. The spirit of the person with Down's syndrome is not reflected in their nature and actions fully while in mortality. It is the same for all of us, to varying degrees.  Our mortal body is not capable of handling the capacity of our spirit, it is a fallen being.

 

The desire of the heart is something only God sees.  That is what he is judging us by.  It is not seen by the outward man.  Men see the outer man, which is the brain, the body and its actions. The inner man is the spiritual nature that is hugely supressed in this life but enough shines through that God, seeing the inner man, can judge the desire of the heart. 

 

The desire to eat food during fast Sunday comes from the body even though my spirit wants to fast.  The desire of my heart is to fast.  The apostles want to stand and watch in the garden of Gesthemane, that is the desire of the heart but their brain, their body does not have that capacity and it weakens and sleeps. 

 

I 100% agree with your last paragraph.  God looks past all the traits of the body, He sees the inner man. 

 

The effect, if any, on the spirit has to by the person taking in the outer traits as their own.  For example, lets say someone has a genetic predisposition for alcoholism, which has been shown to be genetically linked to some degree, therefore a trait of the body.  If the spirit gives into that drive by hanging out with people that drink, by going to bars etc., making it a lifestyle then it starts to be "written in the heart" it starts to become the character of the spirit.  Those same drives will continue in the next life.  On the other hand, even if the person has a genetic predisposition to alcoholism and yet they avoid putting themselves into those situations then the trait of the body doesn't become written in the heart of that person, it doesn't become a spiritual trait. 

[Traveler]

There is a huge difference between desires of the heart and what our fallen brains do.  We are dual beings.  I know this is hard for most to comprehend but this is our gospel.  We have a spiritual nature and a physical nature.  They are not matched while in this life.  This is obvious. The spirit of the person with Down's syndrome is not reflected in their nature and actions fully while in mortality. It is the same for all of us, to varying degrees.  Our mortal body is not capable of handling the capacity of our spirit, it is a fallen being.

 

The desire of the heart is something only God sees.  That is what he is judging us by.  It is not seen by the outward man.  Men see the outer man, which is the brain, the body and its actions. The inner man is the spiritual nature that is hugely supressed in this life but enough shines through that God, seeing the inner man, can judge the desire of the heart. 

 

The desire to eat food during fast Sunday comes from the body even though my spirit wants to fast.  The desire of my heart is to fast.  The apostles want to stand and watch in the garden of Gesthemane, that is the desire of the heart but their brain, their body does not have that capacity and it weakens and sleeps. 

 

I 100% agree with your last paragraph.  God looks past all the traits of the body, He sees the inner man. 

 

The effect, if any, on the spirit has to by the person taking in the outer traits as their own.  For example, lets say someone has a genetic predisposition for alcoholism, which has been shown to be genetically linked to some degree, therefore a trait of the body.  If the spirit gives into that drive by hanging out with people that drink, by going to bars etc., making it a lifestyle then it starts to be "written in the heart" it starts to become the character of the spirit.  Those same drives will continue in the next life.  On the other hand, even if the person has a genetic predisposition to alcoholism and yet they avoid putting themselves into those situations then the trait of the body doesn't become written in the heart of that person, it doesn't become a spiritual trait. 

 

Are you saying that in essence that we end up where our spirit wills us to go dispite what our physical nature desires?  

[Seminarysnoozer]

Are you saying that in essence that we end up where our spirit wills us to go dispite what our physical nature desires?  

We will end up with which one we choose, the promptings from the spirit or the carnal drives from the body.  That is the choice and as Elder Bednar stated, that is the test of this life.

 

Even though we have a hard time doing so, God can separate out what is emanating from the spirit vs the brain.  That is what is meant by God seeing the inner man. He will judge based in our heart's desire, which is the desire of the spirit, in other words, the will of the spirit.  He will take into account all the variables that we cannot at this time such as whether it really was possible to overcome the body's drives or not.  If a particular physical drive is surmountable such as fasting on Sunday despite our brain telling us to eat, then He will judge accordingly.  If, in a particular situation, the body's drives are insurmountable, such as the Apostles being unable to overcome their fatigue in the Garden and stay and watch, then I don't think it will be counted as sin when their desire was to stay and watch.

 

This is why I give the more extreme examples that I think everyone would agree with such as when a person with Tourette's yells out an explitive in the middle of church or how we view someone with Down's syndrome. Everyone has a "thorn in the flesh" that presents some challenge against the desires of the spirit.  As David O. McKay stated, these are opposing natures.  It was intended that way, there needs be opposition in all things but the one who chooses nature, the natural man, over the spiritual influences is an enemy to God.

[Traveler]

We will end up with which one we choose, the promptings from the spirit or the carnal drives from the body.  That is the choice and as Elder Bednar stated, that is the test of this life.

 

Even though we have a hard time doing so, God can separate out what is emanating from the spirit vs the brain.  That is what is meant by God seeing the inner man. He will judge based in our heart's desire, which is the desire of the spirit, in other words, the will of the spirit.  He will take into account all the variables that we cannot at this time such as whether it really was possible to overcome the body's drives or not.  If a particular physical drive is surmountable such as fasting on Sunday despite our brain telling us to eat, then He will judge accordingly.  If, in a particular situation, the body's drives are insurmountable, such as the Apostles being unable to overcome their fatigue in the Garden and stay and watch, then I don't think it will be counted as sin when their desire was to stay and watch.

 

This is why I give the more extreme examples that I think everyone would agree with such as when a person with Tourette's yells out an explitive in the middle of church or how we view someone with Down's syndrome. Everyone has a "thorn in the flesh" that presents some challenge against the desires of the spirit.  As David O. McKay stated, these are opposing natures.  It was intended that way, there needs be opposition in all things but the one who chooses nature, the natural man, over the spiritual influences is an enemy to God.

 

Is there a third nature?  Which one is it that chooses either the carnal physical nature or the spiritual nature?  What is it in us that is making the choice between our physical or spiritual that is not one or the other but has such power over us to determine choice that you are talking about?  What is the inner man that chooses between the physical or spiritual?  It cannot be physical or we would have a metric for it.  And according to you it cannot be spirit or it would of that nature, always choose the spiritual.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Is there a third nature?  Which one is it that chooses either the carnal physical nature or the spiritual nature?  What is it in us that is making the choice between our physical or spiritual that is not one or the other but has such power over us to determine choice that you are talking about?  What is the inner man that chooses between the physical or spiritual?  It cannot be physical or we would have a metric for it.  And according to you it cannot be spirit or it would of that nature, always choose the spiritual.

When real choices are made through agency it is done by the spirit because it matters not what the body choses, it does what comes natural all by itself.  If the spirit chooses to do nothing by way of its agency, to let the body run on auto-pilot so-to-speak, then a person becomes carnal by nature, they become stiffnecked, hardened and have a progressively more difficult time recognizing the influence of the spirit and the individual is responsible for such a choice.  To listen to the promptings from the spirit requries being spiritually minded as described by Paul.  It is difficult, it is not natural, it is not the default way to act, it is the path less traveled. The majority of people in this world do not listen to their spiritual influences and therefore let the body take control, which is the same as letting Satan take control, it is the enemy to God.

 

The "third nature" is the soul, it is the sum total of body plus spirit influence.  What is ultimately done is a reflection of which side has the greater influence, the carnal vs. the spiritual. It is often a changing spectrum, at times the spirit is more powerful, often when a person says they can feel the spirit, that is a time when the spirit is more in control.  The default control lies with the body, if the spirit does nothing to take control and master the passions of the body.

 

God will judge when the situation is reasonably balanced between the two forces to make a judgement.  For example, the Apostles sleeping in the Garden with Jesus was not described as a sin.  Why not?  The body is weak, it was not capable of such an act even when the spirit is willing. What is done is not a reflection of the will of the spirit.  Their spirits wanted to stay awake and watch and pray but they couldn't because the body is weak.  This life was never intended to let the spirit have 100% control, our bodies are not capable of such a thing until they are made perfected through resurrection.  We have to take the test in the flesh and according to the flesh.

 

Metaphorically; If I am riding a horse in a horse race I wouldn't expect my horse to stop in the middle of the race and type on a computer.  It can run and move and carry me but I wouldn't expect the horse to do all the things I could do.  Likewise, our spirits are much more advanced than our current fallen body reflects.  The "horse" is not a reflection of the total capabilities of the rider even though it can be controled by the rider.  Likewise, our current actions are a reflection of the abilities of the body but directed or not directed by the spirit.  When the horse is not directed by the rider then it is the wild form, or the natural form.  The wild horse would not run around the track in the same way a rider on a broken horse would when the rider is in control.  And the rider alone could not run around the track in the same way the horse could.  We are instructed to come to God with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, that is the description of when the spirit is in control.  Without a broken heart and a contrite spirit, the natural body drives take over and the influence from the spirit is lessened.

[Finrock]

Good Afternoon Seminarysnoozer. I hope you've been well! :)

 

 

...The "third nature" is the soul, it is the sum total of body plus spirit influence.  What is ultimately done is a reflection of which side has the greater influence, the carnal vs. the spiritual. It is often a changing spectrum, at times the spirit is more powerful, often when a person says they can feel the spirit, that is a time when the spirit is more in control.  The default control lies with the body, if the spirit does nothing to take control and master the passions of the body...

 

...This life was never intended to let the spirit have 100% control, our bodies are not capable of such a thing until they are made perfected through resurrection.  We have to take the test in the flesh and according to the flesh...

 

 

 

Just sharing a thought. The spirit and the body must become one. For Heavenly Father there is no real distinction between His spirit and His body. They are perfectly united. I weak metaphor: Rather than God's spirit existing inside His body, His spirit and His body are infused together.

 

-Finrock

[Seminarysnoozer]

Good Afternoon Seminarysnoozer. I hope you've been well! :)

 

 

Just sharing a thought. The spirit and the body must become one. For Heavenly Father there is no real distinction between His spirit and His body. They are perfectly united. I weak metaphor: Rather than God's spirit existing inside His body, His spirit and His body are infused together.

 

-Finrock

I think so in terms of their functioning together, their purpose etc. and not opposing each other but obviously there is something that each of the entities brings that the other alone does not have and in that way required to be like God.  What does the body bring that the spirit alone could not provide?  Otherwise, God and us could just be spirit alone if the body did the same exact thing the spirit could by itself. And it is not just for procreation as the spirits in the Terrestrial and Telestial will need a glorified body to exist in those Kingdoms of glory too.

 

The "infusion" does not occur in this life.  In this life there is a distinction, as we are dual beings with opposing natures described recently by Elder Nelson and Bednar, Oct Conference and David O. Mckay previously as well as outlined extensively by Paul.

 

Thanks, hope you are also doing well. 

[Finrock]

I think so in terms of their functioning together, their purpose etc. and not opposing each other but obviously there is something that each of the entities brings that the other alone does not have and in that way required to be like God.  What does the body bring that the spirit alone could not provide?  Otherwise, God and us could just be spirit alone if the body did the same exact thing the spirit could by itself. And it is not just for procreation as the spirits in the Terrestrial and Telestial will need a glorified body to exist in those Kingdoms of glory too.

 

The "infusion" does not occur in this life.  In this life there is a distinction, as we are dual beings with opposing natures described recently by Elder Nelson and Bednar, Oct Conference and David O. Mckay previously as well as outlined extensively by Paul.

 

Thanks, hope you are also doing well. 

 

I'm going to be using metaphors again. They aren't perfect but hopefully they will help in making my thoughts understandable.

 

The temporal body is the instrument that refines the spirit. I believe that the spirit without the body is incomplete in the same sense as the man without the woman is incomplete. A fullness of glory requires that both eternal elements, matter and spirit matter, be united as one. I also believe that not only does the physical body provide a means for our spirit to be refined it also acts as an alloy. In order to convert iron in to steel it not only requires that impurities be removed from the iron but it also requires that alloys be added to the iron to produce the steel. Once these alloys are added to the iron and steel is produced, the alloy and the iron are one. Our bodies act as that alloy that allows our spirit to become exalted and our spirit acts as an alloy that allows our body to become exalted. There is no fullness without each component.

 

And yes, the infusion does not occur during our temporal existence. It is something that will happen after our resurrection.

 

I'm glad that you are doing well.

 

-Finrock

 

P.S. We talk much about our spirit being refined but I also think that our spirit in turn refines our body. As our spirit becomes more in control our bodies can begin to literally glow with light and glory. Eventually, as we progress and our spirit becomes more refined it in turn glorifies our body which in the conclusion of our salvation will emanate light and glory brighter than the noon-day sun.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I'm going to be using metaphors again. They aren't perfect but hopefully they will help in making my thoughts understandable.

 

The temporal body is the instrument that refines the spirit. I believe that the spirit without the body is incomplete in the same sense as the man without the woman is incomplete. A fullness of glory requires that both eternal elements, matter and spirit matter, be united as one. I also believe that not only does the physical body provide a means for our spirit to be refined it also acts as an alloy. In order to convert iron in to steel it not only requires that impurities be removed from the iron but it also requires that alloys be added to the iron to produce the steel. Once these alloys are added to the iron and steel is produced, the alloy and the iron are one. Our bodies act as that alloy that allows our spirit to become exalted and our spirit acts as an alloy that allows our body to become exalted. There is no fullness without each component.

 

And yes, the infusion does not occur during our temporal existence. It is something that will happen after our resurrection.

 

I'm glad that you are doing well.

 

-Finrock

 

P.S. We talk much about our spirit being refined but I also think that our spirit in turn refines our body. As our spirit becomes more in control our bodies can begin to literally glow with light and glory. Eventually, as we progress and our spirit becomes more refined it in turn glorifies our body which in the conclusion of our salvation will emanate light and glory brighter than the noon-day sun.

Thanks, I think your metaphor beautifully describes the need to have a body but the specifics are missing.  That isn't your fault, I don't think it has been revealed.  It is amazing to me that one of the core principles of our gospel is that God has a body of flesh and bones and we need one to be like Him but we really do not know why that is.  We don't know what is it that the body has that is different from the spirit, other then they being two different forms of matter and when they are mixed they form some special alloy - metaphorically speaking, we do not know the properties of the differences between the two that creates such a strong alloy.

The body, by definition, has to add something to the soul, it is a part of our soul, our character.  It is not just something that enhances our character like a good book or a great college course, it is part of our soul itself.  What aspect of the soul, of our character does the body have that the spirit does not?  To answer this question one has to first admit that the body alone has some aspect of character or soul. How could it be part of our soul or character if it doesn't contain soul or character traits by itself.  If one realizes that it does, by itself, carry soul and character traits, which ones are things that the spirit alone could not come up with?

[Finrock]

Good Afternoon Seminarysnoozer. I hope you're having a good day!

 

Thanks, I think your metaphor beautifully describes the need to have a body but the specifics are missing.  That isn't your fault, I don't think it has been revealed.  It is amazing to me that one of the core principles of our gospel is that God has a body of flesh and bones and we need one to be like Him but we really do not know why that is.  We don't know what is it that the body has that is different from the spirit, other then they being two different forms of matter and when they are mixed they form some special alloy - metaphorically speaking, we do not know the properties of the differences between the two that creates such a strong alloy.

The body, by definition, has to add something to the soul, it is a part of our soul, our character.  It is not just something that enhances our character like a good book or a great college course, it is part of our soul itself.  What aspect of the soul, of our character does the body have that the spirit does not?  To answer this question one has to first admit that the body alone has some aspect of character or soul. How could it be part of our soul or character if it doesn't contain soul or character traits by itself.  If one realizes that it does, by itself, carry soul and character traits, which ones are things that the spirit alone could not come up with?

 

Although the specifics, as you stated, aren't available to us, I do think thinking in terms of male and female are useful in providing some answers to the question of the differences between spirit matter and matter. Male and female are basically the same but there are some important and eternal differences which we know compliment and fulfill each role. If we take the position that symbolically the male is spirit and the female is body we can learn some things that I think are significant and helpful to our individual eternal natures. I think this venture is best fulfilled on an individual basis as we ponder these things in our heart and mind, therefore I will not be sharing any particular personal insights on these forums.

 

-Finrock

[Seminarysnoozer]

Good Afternoon Seminarysnoozer. I hope you're having a good day!

 

 

Although the specifics, as you stated, aren't available to us, I do think thinking in terms of male and female are useful in providing some answers to the question of the differences between spirit matter and matter. Male and female are basically the same but there are some important and eternal differences which we know compliment and fulfill each role. If we take the position that symbolically the male is spirit and the female is body we can learn some things that I think are significant and helpful to our individual eternal natures. I think this venture is best fulfilled on an individual basis as we ponder these things in our heart and mind, therefore I will not be sharing any particular personal insights on these forums.

 

-Finrock

Thanks for your response.  Obviously, this is an interest of mine, so if anyone has any insights that are sharable on these forums I would appreciate them. 

 

On a side note, Finrock, do you think there are specific gender differences that are important for those that find theirself in the Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdom?  Could you elaborate on what those are? (If willing and able).

[Traveler]

Good Afternoon Seminarysnoozer. I hope you've been well! :)

 

 

Just sharing a thought. The spirit and the body must become one. For Heavenly Father there is no real distinction between His spirit and His body. They are perfectly united. I weak metaphor: Rather than God's spirit existing inside His body, His spirit and His body are infused together.

 

-Finrock

 

Finrock:

I tend to agree with your observation.  Because of my Physic background I have wondered if the two types of particles in physics are indications of physical and spiritual matter.  That fermions are in essence physical matter and bosons are in essence spirit matter.  We are told in scripture that there was a spiritual creation prior to the physical creation and that all things have spirit elements or as I like to think that there is a symmetry and order to creation that unites spirit matter with physical matter.

 

If anyone is interested in discussing this in depth – perhaps we should start another thread.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Finrock:

I tend to agree with your observation.  Because of my Physic background I have wondered if the two types of particles in physics are indications of physical and spiritual matter.  That fermions are in essence physical matter and bosons are in essence spirit matter.  We are told in scripture that there was a spiritual creation prior to the physical creation and that all things have spirit elements or as I like to think that there is a symmetry and order to creation that unites spirit matter with physical matter.

 

If anyone is interested in discussing this in depth – perhaps we should start another thread.

Photons which are bosons are absorbed by rhodopsin in the retina which allows for vision.  What you are suggesting seems to be directly contradictory to D&C 131; "7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All ^aspirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by ^bpurer eyes;

 8 We cannot ^asee it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all ^bmatter."

[Traveler]

 

Photons which are bosons are absorbed by rhodopsin in the retina which allows for vision.  What you are suggesting seems to be directly contradictory to D&C 131; "7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All ^aspirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by ^bpurer eyes;

 8 We cannot ^asee it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all ^bmatter."

 

 

Your are 100% wrong both in your understanding and interpertation - you do not see photons or light - you see other objects that transmit or reflect light - but the light itself you do not see.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Your are 100% wrong both in your understanding and interpertation - you do not see photons or light - you see other objects that transmit or reflect light - but the light itself you do not see.

Wow!  You are really going to have to explain yourself here.  What comes off the object whether it is reflected or not is light.  What is it that is reflected off the object that our eyes are perceiving if is not light (like you are saying)???

 

Whether the light is reflected or not it is still "light" that is transmitted via photons, what's the dif?  The basketball bouncing off the backboard that goes through the hoop is still a basketball even though it was reflected.

 

By common definition; Light is defined by "what can be seen by the human eye".

Common definition of light: “electromagnetic radiation of any wavelength that travels in a vacuum with a speed of about 186,281 miles (300,000 kilometers) per second; specifically :  such radiation that is visible to the human eye.”

 

Photons, which are bosons, can be converted into physical (or chemical) energy.  This is what happens in the eye via opsins, in other words, discerned by our "non-pure" eyes, but we are told only pure eyes can perceive spirit matter, so therefore bosons are not spirit matter.  This happens to be a direct perception by the non-pure eyes but anything that is discerned by our physical self, as opposed to spiritually discerned, cannot be spirit matter.