Adive For You Mormons To Defend Your Faith

[Outshined]

Bear in mind that compared to the Middle East, South America has scarcely been touched, and lacks the place name continuity found in the Middle East.

You simply can't compare them.

[Dr T]

Thank you Outshined. With that in mind, the shear number of people described in the BOM with the wars, etc. and other have not touched the land so much, don't you think the more probability that vast nations would leave some traces of those civilizations, documented historical or structural fingerprints? That's all I'm saying.

[Outshined]

I agree; the fact is that there are literally thousands of structures in South America that are unidentified. The evidence is there, they just have not put a name to it yet, as there have been drastic changes in civilizations there over the centuries. Many may never be identified. There are things mentioned in the BOM that were once claimed impossible and yet are there, such as writing on metal plates.

I have never looked to science or archaeology for my faith in the Bible, either. There is no archaeological evidence for the existence of Christ, or Moses, or countless others, and yet I believe they lived just as the Bible says they did.

[a-train]

America is covered in ancient cities. Which ones correspond to which Book of Mormon cities? We don't have benefit of tradition to give us that like we have for Biblical locations. Now LDS scholars have theorized this and that and have seen evidence that has agreed with various theories, but this is no different from what has been found in the holy land.

Sure there are ruins in the holy land, but few offer us proof that they are any precise remains of anything described in the Bible. We know where Jerusalem and some other surrounding places are, but only because their designation as such has endured, not because of startling archeaology.

The origin of Teotihuacán is heavily debated. It is believed that it was conquered and renamed perhaps several times over the centuries of it's existance which is believed to have began around 200 B.C. It is acknowledged across the board that it's present name was given to it centuries after it's fall and it's original name is just as unknown as it's origins. Many scholars believe that it was home to a multi-ethnic, multi-religious, and possibly multilingual people who suffered wars and possibly internal conflicts that eventually lead to their destruction. Sounds like the Book of Mormon doesn't it?

The vast majority of what we know about the site came from 20th Century research and many of the features of ancient America that have come to be known through this research was previously unknown to us, but was contained in the Book of Mormon. Example: the finding of poured cement technology thought to be unknown in ancient America (one of the many old-school anti-mormon cries that have been quelled).

It is believed the name suggests: 'birthplace of the gods' and it is associated with a Nahua creation teaching that includes:

'The ancient ones tell us that the Age we live in today, the Fifth Sun, was created in Teotihuacan. The ancient ones tell us that before there was Day in the world, all the gods gathered together in that place called Teotihuacan, and the gods said to one another: "Who will take on the charge of illuminating the One World?" Then to those words, one god named Tecucistécatl responded and said, "I will take charge of illuminating the world."' (Compare to Abr 3:27 just for kicks.)

The truth is, that as far as we can gather from archaeology in both the old and new world, we can only see a vague similarity to our scriptures. And trust me on this, there are Muslims over in the middle-east touting the notion that archaeology is disproving Judeo-Christianity and vindicating the Quran.

-a-train

[Dr T]

Thanks for that.

Sure there are ruins in the holy land, but few offer us proof that they are any precise remains of anything described in the Bible.

There are many sir. Items that skeptics have debated such as "Pilate" being a real leader or things of that nature which have been uncovered such as the name plate with his inscription. There are many many biblical remains that are known today.

[CrimsonKairos]

Our point, Dr. T, is that even if we found an authentic birth certificate from Bethlehem saying: "Jesus, son of Joseph and Mary," and found a footprint in baked mud that we knew for a fact was Christ's...none of that would prove whether or not he was the Son of God.

Here's how the anti-mormon or even the non-LDS Christian thinks:

I cannot pray to know whether the Book of Mormon is true UNLESS there is archeological proof that it COULD be true. If there is no proof, I'm not going to ask God because if it's not true I'd be wasting my time. Sure God could tell me, but if there's no proof why even examine it to know whether it's true?

This is a sad mentality, to me. Imagine the second or third generation of Israelites following the exodus from Egypt. They could easily have said, "Why do I have to follow these ten commandments? How do I know Moses even lived? Where are his bones? And how do I know there really were ten plagues in Egypt? And where's proof that the Red Sea really did part? I can't believe in Jehovah unless there's proof that he MIGHT have done what our Jewish leaders claim he did."

Oh well, whatever floats your boat.

[Outshined]

For an interesting perspective on life in the ancient Americas, check out 1491, by Charles Mann. Very good book, some of you may really enjoy it.

1491 is not so much the story of a year, as of what that year stands for: the long-debated (and often-dismissed) question of what human civilization in the Americas was like before the Europeans crashed the party. The history books most Americans were (and still are) raised on describe the continents before Columbus as a vast, underused territory, sparsely populated by primitives whose cultures would inevitably bow before the advanced technologies of the Europeans. For decades, though, among the archaeologists, anthropologists, paleolinguists, and others whose discoveries Charles C. Mann brings together in 1491, different stories have been emerging. Among the revelations: the first Americans may not have come over the Bering land bridge around 12,000 B.C. but by boat along the Pacific coast 10 or even 20 thousand years earlier; the Americas were a far more urban, more populated, and more technologically advanced region than generally assumed; and the Indians, rather than living in static harmony with nature, radically engineered the landscape across the continents, to the point that even "timeless" natural features like the Amazon rainforest can be seen as products of human intervention.

http://www.amazon.com/1491-Revelations-Ame...s/dp/140004006X

[Dr T]

Our point, Dr. T, is that even if we found an authentic birth certificate from Bethlehem saying: "Jesus, son of Joseph and Mary," and found a footprint in baked mud that we knew for a fact was Christ's...none of that would prove whether or not he was the Son of God.

Good point. I agree with that. I've actually said that above too. It makes claims that are not proof of what it says but it lends support of the belief system for me. Good point about the wanderers too. :)

[vinny15]

Dr. T.

You seem quite intelligent. Have you read the BoM text? Just wondering.

[a-train]

Contrariwise to vindication of the Bible, we have dudes rolling around the globe showing off coffins said to contain Jesus's dead remains.

Now I love the fact that we have a stone with Pilates name on it. Think about the longevity of the Roman Empire and it's influence on modern culture. The volume of preserved Roman artifacts is huge but all we have of Pilate is a singular piece with only a partially preserved inscription of his name.

Furthermore, 'proof' of Pilate's existance will only silence those asserting his fictionality, his inclusion in the Gospel Narrative will only show that the authors of the Gospels included a real historic figure, but it does nothing to prove that he had any involvement in the examination and crucifixion of our LORD. Did he really question the Saviour? Seek to have the Jews choose him to go free rather than Barabbas? Wash his hands?

Critics have suggested that Pilate's placement in the Gospel was so positioned by the authors only to demonstrate an exoneration of the Romans from Jesus's death and blame the Jews. The Eastern Orthodox Church actually sainted his wife Procula who they believe she received a vision warning against any condemnation of Jesus. Pilate himself was sainted by the Ethiopian Church because of their belief that he sought to defend Christ, but ultimately knew the crucifixion was a necessary part of the Saviour's work.

The Book of Mormon has within it's pages a tightly woven narrative with a fabric in which are many threads of known biblical figures and chronology. It also contains many passages that demonstrate linguistic style characteristic of ancient Hebrew culture. Does this 'prove' anything? Well it at least demonstrates that the author(s) had a knowledge of those things mentioned. It also contains references to items, technology, and wisdom not known to exist in ancient America in the 19th century that was later confirmed through science in the 20th century. Does that 'prove' anything? It only demonstrates that either Mormon knew of those things or Joseph Smith was a really good guesser.

Is there a similar stone for the Book of Mormon to the 'Pilate stone'? Have you heard about Nahom?

Peep This

Here is some wiki info on it.

What does all this 'prove'? It could be a great coincidence. It could be a lot of things. I simply do not get to the LORD through the wisdom of men. Science is great, don't get me wrong, but my belief in the Bible and the Book of Mormon doesn't rise or fall on the validity of these archaeological finds, or the lack thereof.

Still, my original intent again is to say that the Bible has hardly been proven archaeologically anyway.

-a-train

[Guest mamacat]

Our point, Dr. T, is that even if we found an authentic birth certificate from Bethlehem saying: "Jesus, son of Joseph and Mary," and found a footprint in baked mud that we knew for a fact was Christ's...none of that would prove whether or not he was the Son of God.

Here's how the anti-mormon or even the non-LDS Christian thinks:

I cannot pray to know whether the Book of Mormon is true UNLESS there is archeological proof that it COULD be true. If there is no proof, I'm not going to ask God because if it's not true I'd be wasting my time. Sure God could tell me, but if there's no proof why even examine it to know whether it's true?

This is a sad mentality, to me. Imagine the second or third generation of Israelites following the exodus from Egypt. They could easily have said, "Why do I have to follow these ten commandments? How do I know Moses even lived? Where are his bones? And how do I know there really were ten plagues in Egypt? And where's proof that the Red Sea really did part? I can't believe in Jehovah unless there's proof that he MIGHT have done what our Jewish leaders claim he did."

Oh well, whatever floats your boat.

haha....this was funny. i love the idea of finding a baby-Jesus footprint in baked mud. perhaps there are some stone tablets adorned with clay and mineral baby-Jesus fingerpainting as well.

[Dr T]

That was a BOM artifacts in the americas vs. biblical artifacts are significantly wanting though.

===

Yes Vinny, I have read the BOM

[Guest Yediyd]

Yes Vinny, I have read the BOM

That's what I like about you, Dr. T...You do not believe the BoM to be true...but at least you took the time to read it before you came to that conclusion. I hate it when people dawg something they know nothing about.

[vinny15]

Dr. T,

Oh ok. Obviously I dont know you well, but I see something that resembles potential. I see that you love the docterine. Next time you read. Compare the foot notes with that of the bibles.

The bible mentions annointing with oil, eternal marriange and baptism for the dead, plus it talks about prophets in revelations and the latter days.I.E. the 3 prophets to die in the streets of jeruselem and rise on the third day.

Also Jacob had upwards of 4 or 5 wives I believe same with isaac and abraham. A few others as well.

[Dr T]

Thank you Vinny. I'm still reading and thinking about my beliefs. The things you mention are familiar ideas and the polygamous relationships did happen but I don't think they were necessarily blessed by God. Those are issues we can discuss at a later time.

[vinny15]

No problem T.

[LukeAir2006]

[pushka]

That is not surprising. The "Jesus Seminar" are a bunch of people that take away Jesus' words from the Bible "because he didn't really say X." They attack the bible. The references would be like Josephus.

Flavius Josephus, a Jewish historian pend this:

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.

- Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3 §63

(Based on the translation of Louis H. Feldman, The Loeb Classical Library.)

As you see, this is referencing Jesus/Messiah

Hi Dr. T. I'd just like to direct you to an old thread on LDSTalk which deals with the question of whether or not Jesus ever existed. Jason provided links that stated that the evidence such as the one you quote above, was from 2nd or 3rd hand accounts of what happened to Jesus and his followers, and that no 1st hand (contemporary?) accounts exist, so we cannot rely on only 2nd/3rd hand testaments as proof.

http://www.ldstalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...;hl=Jesus+exist

[Jason]

Hey M. Good to see you're around.

BACK to the OP.

Has anyone bothered to point out that the Bosnian Pyramids are a sham? Lucky for us, a real Archeologist went there and has reported back to us in the Journal of British Archaeology:

Why can't there be pyramids in Bosnia at 12,000 BC/BP?

This is a question that journalists are fond of asking. Telling them that Europe was in the late upper palaeolithic or early mesolithic (depending on what date is being suggested, and this seems to vary from month to month) does not get one very far. They respond a little better to being told that people living in the Balkans at that time were hunter-gatherers, with little in the way of fixed dwelling sites or other constructions. If they are still listening, one can go on to describe the research that archaeologists have done in the Balkan peninsula, which gives us a very good idea of what human communities were like 10–12,000 years ago. One may point to the work being done by Preston Miracle of Cambridge University in both Croatia and Bosnia, on both cave and open-air sites. This tells us a great deal about the people of the western Balkans in the late palaeolithic; their tool-kits, their living areas, and their food sources. It does not, however, tell us anything about pyramids or other monumental constructions. This does not absolutely exclude that they could have existed: but a manned landing on the (non-) planet Pluto in the next 20 years is more likely.

We were not able to help the Bosnian Serbs with vehicles, but we did meet some of their archaeologists and we learnt about their situation. It was sad indeed, on leaving the press conference in Sarajevo that day, to emerge from the building to find two sparkling new estate cars proudly bearing the symbol Bosanska Piramida Sunca, or Bosnian Pyramid of the Sun Foundation, dedicated to the cause of a fictional past for one of Europe's poorest and most conflict-ridden countries.

Here is a suggestion for Mr Osmanagic and his team. Paint out those words and that logo, and give the vehicles to the professional archaeologists of Bosnia. They really need your help.

http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba92/feat3.shtml

Maybe BYU should do the same thing and give some of that money to Mexican Archeologists in the Yucatan who are in real need?

[CrimsonKairos]

Mexico has enough economic problems that should be dealt with before it worries about earmarking funds for archeology, let alone asking us for any.

[Jason]

Mexico has enough economic problems that should be dealt with before it worries about earmarking funds for archeology, let alone asking us for any.

I would disagree based on the understanding that historic places belong to all of Humanity, and each nation-state is responsible for the protection of said sites for all mankind, present and future.

[CrimsonKairos]

Dude, you should totally run for president. That gave me shivers. My hand was reaching for my Mastercard for a minute there, lol.

[Jason]

Dude, you should totally run for president. That gave me shivers. My hand was reaching for my Mastercard for a minute there, lol.

I should start a Christian Children's foundation and drill fresh water wells in Africa.

Maybe i'll join up with Bono? B)

[CrimsonKairos]

Hahaha, go for it!

[pushka]

Hey M. Good to see you're around.

Hey! Jason! Great to see you're back posting here too!! :)