Life in the Celestial Kingdom

[Windseeker]

I will say this just to lay it out there, and I've said it before, and then I'll stay out of this one. I think this sort of discussion skirts the edge, and thereby runs the risk, of profaning that which is holy.

I can respect that. I'm certainly not asking for details.

[Seminarysnoozer]

 

Thanks for sharing that.

 

In the article shared in another thread from LDS.org "Becoming like God" it says; "In 1832, Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon experienced a vision of the afterlife. In the vision, they learned that the just and unjust alike would receive immortality through a universal resurrection, but only those “who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise” would receive the fulness of God’s glory and be “gods, even the sons of God.”²⁸ Another revelation soon confirmed that “the saints shall be filled with his glory, and receive their inheritance and be made equal with him.”²⁹ Latter-day Saints use the term exaltation to describe the glorious reward of receiving one’s full inheritance as a child of Heavenly Father, which is available through the Atonement of Christ, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.³⁰"

 

D&C 88; 107, explains that the inheritance is a fullness of His glory which will make the person equal with God.  How much glory and intelligence would it take to become equal with God?  That is what is received with an inheritance.  Inheritance is described as a fullness, not part.  Unlike earthly inheritances, a person may get part of what the parents had.  An eternal inheritance is everything.  If it is everything, what is left over?  .... nothing. The receiving of this fullness is what we call exaltation.  Exaltation is inherited, in the same way you received your inheritance (but a fullness).

 

This is, in part, explained by the story of the prodigal son.  The prodigal son thought his inheritance was a part only and so wanted it now.  He later came to realize, as well as the son that stayed, the inheritance is everything the father has.  That is true inheritance. 

 

How can the inheritance remain the same for everyone?   It is shared, not divided, like an earthly inheritance would be. We become one with God and therefore have access to all that He has, knows, powers, glory etc. is all included .... a fullness.  All that God has cannot be part or partitioned. A person would enter into that fullness upon entering their Kingdom.

 

Those who are resurrected in the first resurrection will receive this fullness.  What is a fullness?  D&C 76; "59 Wherefore, ^aall things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.  60 And they shall ^aovercome all things. 61 Wherefore, let no man ^aglory in man, but rather let him ^bglory in God, who shall ^csubdue all enemies under his feet."

 

The fullness of our inheritance will include everything God has and will have, there is nothing left to subdue or overcome.

 

I am not sure I communicated very well - the worthwhile inheritance I received from my father is not measured in money and things – but more so in knowledge and understanding.  My father’s wealth is not money and things and that is the point.  Wealth is the only possible result from such knowledge and understanding that I received from my father.  But this kind of knowledge and understanding does not come from watching – it comes from experiencing.

 

When you share a bank account it is diminished by the number you share it with.  But knowledge and understanding is radically different.  Not only is knowledge and understanding not diminished by sharing – the reality is that it is enhanced and increased.  The Prodigal Son is not about who gets property, sheep and titles – it is about coming to one’s senses and thus behaving differently – which also means seeing things, using things and desiring things of inheritance differently.

 

Who said I was talking about anything different than that? 

 

My statement was more directed at the issue that we "inherit" the fullness.  This is why I asked you what you thought about inheritance as it pertains to the resurrection.  Not so much as to what is received (I agree, it is knowlege, intelligence, glory) but how it is received - as an inheritance.  And the issue that exaltation means receiving a fullness of everything God has now and will have.  ... the body itself could be the delivery device for such "experience". Like buying a computer with programs preloaded.  There is one material thing received when we obtain our inheritance, an immortal body, one for the Celestial Kingdom, another kind for the Terrestrial and many different kinds for the Telestial Kingdom, as one star differs from another.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I think there is a misunderstanding.  We will receive according to the desire of our heart - not the desire of G-d.  (See D&C 137:9)  I believe that part of the Plan of Salvation is to gain knowledge from which we may define our desire.  It is about agency and choice.  How can anyone make a choice in ignorance?   I do not believe for a second that the agency G-d gives to man requires that we makes blind choices of ignorance.  In fact I believe that is the essence of Satan's efforts and in part why he is called the deciever.

We took care of that requirement in the first estate test.  That phase of the testing is over!

 

This life, the second estate test, is to see if we will do the things we are asked to do based in faith in Christ.

 

Why do you think we have to retake the first estate test again? 

 

The desire of the heart test is more of a test of how badly one wants it.  It is a priority test which requires a spectrum, the spectrum being from carnal to spiritual.  Where on the spectrum do we stand, more or less on the carnal or the spiritual side. 

 

Elder Bednar stated this very clearly in the April 2013 conference; "And yet we are dual beings, for our spirit that is the eternal part of us is tabernacled in a physical body that is subject to the Fall. As Jesus emphasized to the Apostle Peter, “The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41).

The precise nature of the test of mortality, then, can be summarized in the following question: Will I respond to the inclinations of the natural man, or will I yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and put off the natural man and become a saint through the Atonement of Christ the Lord (see Mosiah 3:19)? That is the test. Every appetite, desire, propensity, and impulse of the natural man may be overcome by and through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. We are here on the earth to develop godlike qualities and to bridle all of the passions of the flesh."

 

This life is not a test based in quantity of knowledge. 

 

Let me ask you, is the level on one's intelligence in this life a talent, a temporary gift or is it self?

 

In other words, if someone is born with Down's syndrome, is that self or the body, just speaking of intelligence alone?

 

Then, likewise, when someone is born with great intelligence in this life it is a temporary status, a talent which is part of the test, where much is given much is expected.  All the variance in intelligence is taken into account at judgement day.  The level of intelligence in this life itself is not the test, it is what we do with what we are given temporarily.  Intelligence in this life is simply a stewardship, it is not ownership!!

[Str8Shooter]

Will we have time off? Will there be time to do the things that we have not been able to do in this life-read novels, spend time with relatives, sit and meditate?

 

I really feel that after we gain more knowledge about eternal progression, we will not want to do the things we want to do now.  Kind of like how a pre-school aged child has different priorities than a full grown adult.  For example, at one time in my life I'm pretty sure I used to think that crawling on my hands and knees was the best thing ever.  As an adult, sometimes I crawl around to play with the kids, or look for something I dropped, but it is certainly something that I don't find all that enjoyable anymore.

 

As for time off- I don't think we will want to have time off.  As it was said in conference, the joy of eternal life is families.  I would understand that to mean that we will be spending nearly all of our time with them, and it will be joyful time.

 

Keep in mind these are my opinions and not necessarily doctrine. 

[Str8Shooter]

My question wasn't pertaining to whether there would be others, that is certain.  The question was related to what "afflictions" and "struggles" would need attending.  Who is struggling and who is afflicted? 

 

If we are talking about people who have afflictions or struggles (i.e - in a mortal probation state) then I guess we are not talking about how it will be in the Celestial Kingdom.

 

I believe that in the Celestial Kingdom, there is eternal progression, and if we make it at some point we may ("will" might be more appropriate) be called to serve with celestial authority in other places that have or will have mortal beings.  Being mortal, they will have afflictions and struggles and will need help from a celestial level, just as we do right now.

 

As for there being no afflictions or struggles in any of the kingdoms- Satan will be bound.  However, I believe individuals will still have their memories.  According to the Doctrine and Covenants those in the Telestial Kingdom will be those that were liars, sorcerers, adulterers, whoremongers, and those who love and make a lie.  I believe that the memories they have will, at times, be difficult for them to deal with and they will ask for ministering by someone to bring peace.  Occasionally, I remember some of the sins I have committed in the past.  Even though I have repented, I sometimes need the comfort of the Holy Ghost to reassure me that those things are in the past and over.  

 

I don't know how much happiness will be in the Telestial Kingdom.  Those that go there will be servants to God, but they can never be where God and Christ dwell.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I believe that in the Celestial Kingdom, there is eternal progression, and if we make it at some point we may ("will" might be more appropriate) be called to serve with celestial authority in other places that have or will have mortal beings.  Being mortal, they will have afflictions and struggles and will need help from a celestial level, just as we do right now.

 

As for there being no afflictions or struggles in any of the kingdoms- Satan will be bound.  However, I believe individuals will still have their memories.  According to the Doctrine and Covenants those in the Telestial Kingdom will be those that were liars, sorcerers, adulterers, whoremongers, and those who love and make a lie.  I believe that the memories they have will, at times, be difficult for them to deal with and they will ask for ministering by someone to bring peace.  Occasionally, I remember some of the sins I have committed in the past.  Even though I have repented, I sometimes need the comfort of the Holy Ghost to reassure me that those things are in the past and over.  

 

I don't know how much happiness will be in the Telestial Kingdom.  Those that go there will be servants to God, but they can never be where God and Christ dwell.

I can't argue with them having memories, I agree with that.  But, I don't think they will have any natural drive to it, that will have been overcome by that point.  In other words, it is not like they would have to be encouraged or prevented from doing those things.  Even the Telestial Kingdom is a Kingdom of glory that is worthy of the Holy Ghost's presence.  Think about how hard it is to maintain the Holy Ghost's presence for us now.  The Holy Ghost is not present in people who lie or who are whoremongers etc.  That is in their past at that point. THe happiness in the Telestial Kingdom is likely greater than even we could comprehend right now, it is better than the world we currently live in by far.  I think it was Joseph Smith who said we would all want to immediately die right now if we knew how good it was in even the Telestial Kingdom. Spirit prison would be no fun, by once that it is over it is a Kingdom of glory and happiness.

 

I agree, there are likely new worlds where we would be called to help.

[Traveler]

Who said I was talking about anything different than that? 

 

My statement was more directed at the issue that we "inherit" the fullness.  This is why I asked you what you thought about inheritance as it pertains to the resurrection.  Not so much as to what is received (I agree, it is knowlege, intelligence, glory) but how it is received - as an inheritance.  And the issue that exaltation means receiving a fullness of everything God has now and will have.  ... the body itself could be the delivery device for such "experience". Like buying a computer with programs preloaded.  There is one material thing received when we obtain our inheritance, an immortal body, one for the Celestial Kingdom, another kind for the Terrestrial and many different kinds for the Telestial Kingdom, as one star differs from another.

 

I used the knowledge I learned from my earthy father as an example.  He use to tell me the great experience of life is not in sudden changes or single events - it is all about the journey and the accumulation of what we are doing.   Some of his favorite sayings were:  “You are today what you have spent your entire life becoming”.  And “It is not so much what you do now or where you have been as where you are going and how what you are doing creates a pattern or trend.”  My older brother would add, “We all live by rules that strictly govern us – whenever we make an exception – that becomes the rule.”

 

I believe we will inherit what we learn through spiritual and physical discipline to enjoy.  Again quoting from my father, “Happiness is not getting what you want but in learning to enjoy what you have and what you have worked or strived to become.  Different, I believe, from your thinking or belief; that a single sudden change will fix everything, I believe that resurrection in the Celestial Kingdom is more about what we will be and have become spiritually; than just a physical upgrade.  I believe that it is our agency and not the will of G-d that in the end that determines what will be or what will inherit that which is Celestial.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I used the knowledge I learned from my earthy father as an example.  He use to tell me the great experience of life is not in sudden changes or single events - it is all about the journey and the accumulation of what we are doing.   Some of his favorite sayings were:  “You are today what you have spent your entire life becoming”.  And “It is not so much what you do now or where you have been as where you are going and how what you are doing creates a pattern or trend.”  My older brother would add, “We all live by rules that strictly govern us – whenever we make an exception – that becomes the rule.”

 

I believe we will inherit what we learn through spiritual and physical discipline to enjoy.  Again quoting from my father, “Happiness is not getting what you want but in learning to enjoy what you have and what you have worked or strived to become.  Different, I believe, from your thinking or belief; that a single sudden change will fix everything, I believe that resurrection in the Celestial Kingdom is more about what we will be and have become spiritually; than just a physical upgrade.  I believe that it is our agency and not the will of G-d that in the end that determines what will be or what will inherit that which is Celestial.

If we "inherit" what we learn, how is that inheritance?  Why not call it, things that are learned?

 

I am trying to understand how your interpretation of the word inheritance as it refers to what happens upon resurrection and in particular the inheritance of a "fullness".

 

Within that understanding, there needs to be an appreciation of the fact that the body and the spirit bring about a fullness of joy and make up the soul of man.  In other words, it doesn't all eminate from the spirit.  The spirit alone does not have or cannot have a fullness.  So, what aspect of that full inheritance is provided by the body that the spirit alone could not provide if it is just "learning" and "experience"?  Aren't those two things provided by the spirit alone? 

 

I never said "just a physical upgrade".  I believe it is both, which is more than what you are suggesting because you give no credit to the advancement of glory and intelligence provided by the body.  Spirit alone does not equal soul, spirit and body is the soul, then the body cannot be equal to zero.  At some point you are going to have to contemplate and consider how the body adds to the soul in a way that the spirit could not. Then, one can contemplate the fact that those added qualities are bestowed on individuals at the moment of resurrection as they receive a perfected body related to a fullness of their glory.  It is not the same body that we had here.  It is something greater.  It is greater in what way?  What features? 

 

If happiness is enjoying what we have worked to become then there is no credit given to our Savior. Is not that what Lucifer's description of happiness was?  Didn't he say, give me the glory as I will do it on my own and not give credit to a Savior?

 

As it is in this life, most of what we recieve is obtained on the shoulders of someone else' work, it will be the same in the next life.  Think of all the things you "learned" that were not received at least in part from someone else' effort that you could purely claim as your own.  I am assuming there are not many things that would fit that description.  The knowledge and experience was inherited from someone else work.  For example, I did not work out the English language on my own, I inherited it from someone else and yet I can claim it as my own.

 

How something is learned is not as important as if it is received or not.  If I plug in a program into my computer, did it learn the program or simply receive the program?  What is the difference?

[Traveler]

If we "inherit" what we learn, how is that inheritance?  Why not call it, things that are learned?

 

I am trying to understand how your interpretation of the word inheritance as it refers to what happens upon resurrection and in particular the inheritance of a "fullness".

 

Within that understanding, there needs to be an appreciation of the fact that the body and the spirit bring about a fullness of joy and make up the soul of man.  In other words, it doesn't all eminate from the spirit.  The spirit alone does not have or cannot have a fullness.  So, what aspect of that full inheritance is provided by the body that the spirit alone could not provide if it is just "learning" and "experience"?  Aren't those two things provided by the spirit alone? 

 

I never said "just a physical upgrade".  I believe it is both, which is more than what you are suggesting because you give no credit to the advancement of glory and intelligence provided by the body.  Spirit alone does not equal soul, spirit and body is the soul, then the body cannot be equal to zero.  At some point you are going to have to contemplate and consider how the body adds to the soul in a way that the spirit could not. Then, one can contemplate the fact that those added qualities are bestowed on individuals at the moment of resurrection as they receive a perfected body related to a fullness of their glory.  It is not the same body that we had here.  It is something greater.  It is greater in what way?  What features? 

 

If happiness is enjoying what we have worked to become then there is no credit given to our Savior. Is not that what Lucifer's description of happiness was?  Didn't he say, give me the glory as I will do it on my own and not give credit to a Savior?

 

As it is in this life, most of what we recieve is obtained on the shoulders of someone else' work, it will be the same in the next life.  Think of all the things you "learned" that were not received at least in part from someone else' effort that you could purely claim as your own.  I am assuming there are not many things that would fit that description.  The knowledge and experience was inherited from someone else work.  For example, I did not work out the English language on my own, I inherited it from someone else and yet I can claim it as my own.

 

How something is learned is not as important as if it is received or not.  If I plug in a program into my computer, did it learn the program or simply receive the program?  What is the difference?

 

Perhaps I am not a good communicator.  A skill I have not learned well.  My brother, when talking about economics, will say that the best way to determine if someone understands compound interest is whether they pay it or get it.   Many years ago I thought to be a teacher but I was unable to pass a spelling test – so I became an engineer.  While trying to be a teacher I wanted to specialize in exceptional learners. 

 

I came away from my teaching experience convinced that everyone (with rare exceptions – of course – because of a severer disability) is an exceptional learner.  The single most common denominator of the world’s genius is that they are tutored.  In other words they inherited the wisdom of someone willing to teach, guide and direct them.  There are only two important elements needed.  One is a hunger and passion to learn and the other is a knowledgeable expert with a hunger and passion to pass on what they have learned.  Thus the greatest lesson to be learned is the hunger and passion to learn.

 

There is a saying that a fool and his money are soon parted.  But my question is – how does a fool get his money in the first place.   The age old clash between classes was that the fool inherits things – non fools learn and work for what they get.   I once told my dad that someday I would earn “good” money.  My father turned to me and said, “Son, any money you earn is good money.  It’s the money that is given to you that you did not earn yourself that is bad money”.  It took me many years to figure out what he was trying to tell me. 

 

You do not need to teach a fisherman to fish.  This is a slight misunderstanding.  A fisherman had to learn to fish but because a fisherman began with a passion for fishing the lesson of fishing was not rejected when the opportunity was available.   The scripture’s parallel is in the various parables of seeds; seeds being opportunities.  But for something to grow and for us to profit from the growth; we must become engaged in our opportunities.  We must become invested in the success of seeds.  Thus learning, or in this case inheriting what G-d has learned and becoming a G-d,  we must invest in his investment in us – which is an investment in others.  Once we learn this lesson – like the lesson of compound interest we get it – and no one has to drag us to the opportunity any more – instead we begin our search for other genus with our seeds of opportunity.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Perhaps I am not a good communicator.  A skill I have not learned well.  My brother, when talking about economics, will say that the best way to determine if someone understands compound interest is whether they pay it or get it.   Many years ago I thought to be a teacher but I was unable to pass a spelling test – so I became an engineer.  While trying to be a teacher I wanted to specialize in exceptional learners. 

 

I came away from my teaching experience convinced that everyone (with rare exceptions – of course – because of a severer disability) is an exceptional learner.  The single most common denominator of the world’s genius is that they are tutored.  In other words they inherited the wisdom of someone willing to teach, guide and direct them.  There are only two important elements needed.  One is a hunger and passion to learn and the other is a knowledgeable expert with a hunger and passion to pass on what they have learned.  Thus the greatest lesson to be learned is the hunger and passion to learn.

 

There is a saying that a fool and his money are soon parted.  But my question is – how does a fool get his money in the first place.   The age old clash between classes was that the fool inherits things – non fools learn and work for what they get.   I once told my dad that someday I would earn “good” money.  My father turned to me and said, “Son, any money you earn is good money.  It’s the money that is given to you that you did not earn yourself that is bad money”.  It took me many years to figure out what he was trying to tell me. 

 

You do not need to teach a fisherman to fish.  This is a slight misunderstanding.  A fisherman had to learn to fish but because a fisherman began with a passion for fishing the lesson of fishing was not rejected when the opportunity was available.   The scripture’s parallel is in the various parables of seeds; seeds being opportunities.  But for something to grow and for us to profit from the growth; we must become engaged in our opportunities.  We must become invested in the success of seeds.  Thus learning, or in this case inheriting what G-d has learned and becoming a G-d,  we must invest in his investment in us – which is an investment in others.  Once we learn this lesson – like the lesson of compound interest we get it – and no one has to drag us to the opportunity any more – instead we begin our search for other genus with our seeds of opportunity.

I completely agree with what you are saying as it pertains to this life but we are talking, here, about life in the Celestial Kingdom and what is "inherited" as it says in the scriptures when entering into God's rest. The parable of the seeds is related to this life - how one receives the gospel.

 

A better parable is found in Matthew 25 as it starts out saying "then shall the Kingdom of heaven be likened unto..." and "For the Kingdom of heaven is like unto a man traveling in a far country...".   As the parable of the ten talents goes; "

 20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou ^adeliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

 21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful ^aservant: thou hast been ^bfaithful over a few things, I will make thee ^cruler over many things: enter thou into the ^djoy of thy lord."  The one who turned 5 talents into another 5, is doing what you are talking about but also pay attention to the fact that the Lord made him ruler over many things as a result of that learning.  I am assuming the many things (as opposed to the few things - the 5 talents originally given) is a much larger responsibility.  This was given, not earned by himself.  This is the thing we are talking about, as it pertains to what happens on the day of reckoning.  Again, this is more directly related to what happens in the Kingdom of Heaven.  Also in verse; " 28 Take therefore the ^atalent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

 29 For unto every one that hath shall be ^agiven, and he shall have ^babundance: but from him that hath not shall be ^ctaken away even that which he hath."

 

The talent that was originally given to the one who received one was taken away from him and given to the servant who originally had 5.  And then it is explained that unto every one that hath shall be given and shall be given in abundance!!

 

I am not arguing the process with which is required to get to that point, it requires hard work and being profitable servants but the reward is greater than what is earned.  Listen to how the Lord expands; "

 26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and ^aslothful servant, thou knewest that I ^breap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

 27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with ^ausury."

 

He reaps where he has sowed not and gathers where he has not strawed and He receives usury. 

 

The Celestial Kingdom is a place where one can reap where he/she has not sowed and gather where he/she has not strawed!!  Those are the true parables related to the Celestial Kingdom.  How is that done?  By sharing in the glory of others and their work (maybe a topic for another thread).

[Traveler]

I completely agree with what you are saying as it pertains to this life but we are talking, here, about life in the Celestial Kingdom and what is "inherited" as it says in the scriptures when entering into God's rest. The parable of the seeds is related to this life - how one receives the gospel.

 

A better parable is found in Matthew 25 as it starts out saying "then shall the Kingdom of heaven be likened unto..." and "For the Kingdom of heaven is like unto a man traveling in a far country...".   As the parable of the ten talents goes; "

 20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou ^adeliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

 21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful ^aservant: thou hast been ^bfaithful over a few things, I will make thee ^cruler over many things: enter thou into the ^djoy of thy lord."  The one who turned 5 talents into another 5, is doing what you are talking about but also pay attention to the fact that the Lord made him ruler over many things as a result of that learning.  I am assuming the many things (as opposed to the few things - the 5 talents originally given) is a much larger responsibility.  This was given, not earned by himself.  This is the thing we are talking about, as it pertains to what happens on the day of reckoning.  Again, this is more directly related to what happens in the Kingdom of Heaven.  Also in verse; " 28 Take therefore the ^atalent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

 29 For unto every one that hath shall be ^agiven, and he shall have ^babundance: but from him that hath not shall be ^ctaken away even that which he hath."

 

The talent that was originally given to the one who received one was taken away from him and given to the servant who originally had 5.  And then it is explained that unto every one that hath shall be given and shall be given in abundance!!

 

I am not arguing the process with which is required to get to that point, it requires hard work and being profitable servants but the reward is greater than what is earned.  Listen to how the Lord expands; "

 26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and ^aslothful servant, thou knewest that I ^breap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

 27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with ^ausury."

 

He reaps where he has sowed not and gathers where he has not strawed and He receives usury. 

 

The Celestial Kingdom is a place where one can reap where he/she has not sowed and gather where he/she has not strawed!!  Those are the true parables related to the Celestial Kingdom.  How is that done?  By sharing in the glory of others and their work (maybe a topic for another thread).

 

There are several parables that begin with the concept "the kingdom of heaven is like".  If your understanding is summerized by this particular scripture alone - I suggest your understanding is incomplete.  Hebrews chapter 4 teaches that the Sabbath day of rest is intended to teach us of heaven.  Thus our Sabbath covenant is our heaven.

 

My father taught me that what we do when we do not have to do anything - defines what we are and what we believe.  If when we are on vacation and have no obligation to go to church so we go to one meeting only or no meetings because that is what we desire as to associating with the saints of G-d -- why should we expect to be in that place where we will associate more with the saints and think it heaven?

 

My point is that we will enheirt what we have learned to desire in our heart.  If we do not desire something enough to labor for it and enjoy the labor to be a part of it.  G-d will not force us to enjoy it more in the next life than what we learned to enjoy here.  And as I read the parables that liken heaven that is what I see.

[Seminarysnoozer]

There are several parables that begin with the concept "the kingdom of heaven is like".  If your understanding is summerized by this particular scripture alone - I suggest your understanding is incomplete.  Hebrews chapter 4 teaches that the Sabbath day of rest is intended to teach us of heaven.  Thus our Sabbath covenant is our heaven.

 

My father taught me that what we do when we do not have to do anything - defines what we are and what we believe.  If when we are on vacation and have no obligation to go to church so we go to one meeting only or no meetings because that is what we desire as to associating with the saints of G-d -- why should we expect to be in that place where we will associate more with the saints and think it heaven?

 

My point is that we will enheirt what we have learned to desire in our heart.  If we do not desire something enough to labor for it and enjoy the labor to be a part of it.  G-d will not force us to enjoy it more in the next life than what we learned to enjoy here.  And as I read the parables that liken heaven that is what I see.

I agree with you here.  We have found common ground!

 

I think that is exactly right, we will inherit what we learn to desire.  If one desires the things of this world then that is what they will inherit.  That includes the lowly intelligence we have here.  That includes all the "fallen" traits we have temporarily. We should not make for ourselves treasures of those things that turn to dust.  This is why we want to do everything with an eye single to God's glory, not man's glory.  It is not what man achieves in terms of discovery, science etc that we should have a passion for but the God's work and glory.

 

Even the most intelligent man to ever live in this world is in a fallen state compared to God and much much much lower than where our hearts desire should be.  As Moses said, man is nothing (in comparison to where our heart's desire should be).

[Traveler]

I agree with you here.  We have found common ground!

 

I think that is exactly right, we will inherit what we learn to desire.  If one desires the things of this world then that is what they will inherit.  That includes the lowly intelligence we have here.  That includes all the "fallen" traits we have temporarily. We should not make for ourselves treasures of those things that turn to dust.  This is why we want to do everything with an eye single to God's glory, not man's glory.  It is not what man achieves in terms of discovery, science etc that we should have a passion for but the God's work and glory.

 

Even the most intelligent man to ever live in this world is in a fallen state compared to God and much much much lower than where our hearts desire should be.  As Moses said, man is nothing (in comparison to where our heart's desire should be).

 

I am glad we have found some common ground.  But I disagree with what I think you are communicating through what appears to be to be a discouragement of an attitude of discovery and what is achieved by such an attitude.  I would first say that it is only through an attitude of discovery are we are inspired (fertile ground) to seek and learn of G-d (through the divine seed he plants).  Thus I believe that an attitude of discovery is at the core and essence of learning the things that are true and of eternal value.  I also believe that G-d is a G-d of truth and the rejection of any truth is to that same degree a rejection of the G-d of truth.  I believe there is foolishness and an evil temptation at the core of the belief that we (fallen mortals) can or should attempt in any way to reject, diminish or make foolish any truth that G-d in his wisdom reveals.   I believe that an attitude of thanksgiving, respect and apparition of all revealed truth from G-d is more in line with a saint seeking better understanding of their G-d, which is the G-d of truth.  I especially do not understand the fear of many that claim to believe in a G-d of truth have in the discipline of science.

 

Often I hear the argument that scientific truth leads to pride.  But I reject the basis of that argument and point out that historically that those associated with religion have been just as or more captivated by the issues of pride.  That it is the very division in the thinking that the truth one has found is of greater value than truths others have found that is at the core of pride and every issue resulting from pride.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I am glad we have found some common ground.  But I disagree with what I think you are communicating through what appears to be to be a discouragement of an attitude of discovery and what is achieved by such an attitude.  I would first say that it is only through an attitude of discovery are we are inspired (fertile ground) to seek and learn of G-d (through the divine seed he plants).  Thus I believe that an attitude of discovery is at the core and essence of learning the things that are true and of eternal value.  I also believe that G-d is a G-d of truth and the rejection of any truth is to that same degree a rejection of the G-d of truth.  I believe there is foolishness and an evil temptation at the core of the belief that we (fallen mortals) can or should attempt in any way to reject, diminish or make foolish any truth that G-d in his wisdom reveals.   I believe that an attitude of thanksgiving, respect and apparition of all revealed truth from G-d is more in line with a saint seeking better understanding of their G-d, which is the G-d of truth.  I especially do not understand the fear of many that claim to believe in a G-d of truth have in the discipline of science.

 

Often I hear the argument that scientific truth leads to pride.  But I reject the basis of that argument and point out that historically that those associated with religion have been just as or more captivated by the issues of pride.  That it is the very division in the thinking that the truth one has found is of greater value than truths others have found that is at the core of pride and every issue resulting from pride.

Thanks, I hear the same arguements about money.  You are right, intelligence and knowledge is not evil.  What is evil is when man puts trust in the arm of the flesh over that of God's. It is the tower of Babel problem that once man starts to be a little successful and improvements are made in our standard of living, often times because of science and innovations, then pride sets in.  It is all a matter of why one learns.  Is it done with an eye single to the glory of God or not? 

 

This is a little long but I like how Elder Nelson (a man of science) says it in his talk "Neither trust in the arm of the flesh"; He tells of an eperience where his fellow medical student started to bleed heavily in a rural part of Mexico and all their medical understanding couldn't save him but a blessing did.  He said; "The lesson we learned was simple: “Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding” (Proverbs 3:5). We experienced it firsthand. This doctrine, taught repeatedly in the scriptures,¹ had now become our sure knowledge.

Please do not misunderstand me, brothers and sisters. Of course we need to prepare for worthy work to do. Yes, we do need to do our work well, whatever we choose to do in life. We need to be able to render significant service. And before we can achieve that competence, we need an education. With us, education is a religious responsibility. The glory of God really is intelligence (see D&C 93:36).

But the learning of man has its limitations. And sometimes, as in our circumstance in rural Mexico, the combined learning of many experts cannot be applied when we need it most. We have to place our trust in the Lord.

That experience in Mexico taught us another important lesson. It pertains to our ultimate priorities and highest destinies as mortal beings. We learned that a doctor’s ultimate destination is not in the hospital. For a lawyer, it is not in the courtroom. For a jet pilot, it is not in the cockpit of a Boeing 747. Each person’s chosen occupation is only a means to an end; it is not an end in itself.

The end for which each of you should strive is to be the person that you can become—the person who God wants you to be. The day will come when your professional career will end. The career that you will have labored so hard to achieve—the work that will have supported you and your family—will one day be behind you.

Then you will have learned this great lesson: much more important than what you do for a living is what kind of person you become. When you leave this frail existence, what you have become will matter most. Attributes such as “faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, brotherly kindness, godliness, charity, humility, [and] diligence” (D&C 4:6) will all be weighed in the Lord’s balance."  (my bold added)

 

In other words, the value in learning is the effect on attributes such as faith, virtue, patience, charity, humility etc. Let me repeat his statement, the learning is not an end in itself, it is just a means to an end.  The end being those traits listed.

 

An individual who was diligent in their service and gained those attributes during Jesus day would be equal to an individual who was equally dilligent in their service in our day even though the amount of knowledge of various types would be much more abundant in a person of our day then then it would be for the person who lived 2000 years ago.  The glory of their achievements and what the Lord weighs out in the balance is not the quantity of knowledge amassed in this life but the faith and purpose with which it was done. That is way more important than gathering as much data as possible in this life.   We all knew it before coming here.

 

I think it would be hard to name one scientific fact that our spirit did not already know before coming here and that we think we discovered anew in this life and yet will be returned to our intelligence as it was originally learned in the pre-mortal world when the veil is drawn.  Go ahead and try to name one newly learned scientific fact....

[Traveler]

Thanks, I hear the same arguements about money.  You are right, intelligence and knowledge is not evil.  What is evil is when man puts trust in the arm of the flesh over that of God's. It is the tower of Babel problem that once man starts to be a little successful and improvements are made in our standard of living, often times because of science and innovations, then pride sets in.  It is all a matter of why one learns.  Is it done with an eye single to the glory of God or not? 

 

....

 

Just a little thought - Often we think of Babel in terms of the tower - but there is much more.  Babel was the beginning or founding of Babylon.  Anciently Babylon was most famous for its economy and was the beginning of what is known as the banking industry.  It was Babylon that developed the strategy of debt to control economies of individuals as well as entire nations.  Prophets of the restoration have warned against debt (usury) in contrast to the Babylonian concept of getting what you want now and paying for it later and making money immorally.  This is somewhat different view to what being worldly means that many gloss over and do not pay much attention to.   

 

There are some religious scholars (including Hugh Nibley) that believe that the sin of Sodom was sexual deviancies and the sin of Gomorrah was the sin of debt and usury.  None of which will be part of the Celestial kingdom.