Christian Faith

[The Folk Prophet]

I wasn't. Were you?

 

Apparently you assumed I was. You telling me to get a grip was undoubtedly so.

 

Can you really not understand that coming into the middle of other's conversing and essentially saying "This is a stupid conversation" might be taken as offensive?

 

Conversely, I can certainly understand that my response to you could have been taken as offensive. I tried to offset the potential "rude" nature of it with the smiley emoticon. Apparently you didn't take the tone. So be it. I apologize for being rude.

 

But, honestly, if you find it stupid, why are you joining in?

[Guest]

No I didn't think you were rude either... Until you told me not to be rude.

And I already explained where you misunderstood my post... Which I guess you think was rude. I said.., and you can go back to my post to verify... TO ME faith vs works, like chicken vs egg... is stupid... and some paragraphs why I think so ending with... you're all saying the exact same thing.

I never ever ever said this is a stupid conversation. But, hey, if you chose to be offended, there's nothing I can do to stop you. Free will and all that...

Apparently you assumed I was. You telling me to get a grip was undoubtedly so.

 

Can you really not understand that coming into the middle of other's conversing and essentially saying "This is a stupid conversation" might be taken as offensive?

 

Conversely, I can certainly understand that my response to you could have been taken as offensive. I tried to offset the potential "rude" nature of it with the smiley emoticon. Apparently you didn't take the tone. So be it. I apologize for being rude.

 

But, honestly, if you find it stupid, why are you joining in?

[The Folk Prophet]

Thanks for the response. So you agree that faith alone saves, but the faith that saves is not alone? I know I'm hammering this. Thanks!

 

Interesting way to put it. Yeah...maybe. Faith required works to be faith. So in that sense, yeah...not alone.

[The Folk Prophet]

Works don't save, yet we honor those who engage in the greatest work of all--martyrdom.  More than once Revelation gives them special recognition.  Some Bible teachers even suggest that it is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

 

So, it's all about faith and grace in getting saved.  Further, it's faith, grace, and Holy Spirit anointing that cause our works--our disciplines--to be effective.  Yet, we are indeed to be about the Father's business.

 

One of the things about this sort of thinking (faith, grace, Holy Spirit annointing, etc., causing our good works to be effective and works of any sort being a gift of the Holy spirit) is that, to me, it diminishes the idea of agency and choice. I admit that I may not fully understand the perspective, not being raised in the non-LDS Christian tradition, but it seems to me that it implies that if you choose to accept Jesus then you will be made a better person and act accordingly, rather than the idea that by choosing to be a better persona and act accordingly you are accepting Jesus.

 

My thinking is that both are true and that the non-LDS Christian p.o.v. is missing the second half. We become more like Christ by choosing to act like Christ. We also become more like Christ by being filled with His grace. Both are important to our coming unto him. And I see too many examples of those who claim to be saved but then go about their lives without any Christlike behavior whatsoever. There's something missing there, in my opinion. What's missing, I think, is their choosing to act (works) to actually become more like Christ. We are who we choose to be, as well as who we are graced to be.

 

That's my thinking on it at least.

[prisonchaplain]

The Folk Prophet may have stumbled upon an aspect of what happens after conversion that even Evangelicals disagree about:  the possibility of "falling from grace."  If the grace we receive is 100% Christ-dependent than can we lose it, neglect it, or otherwise let go of the salvation it brings?  Some--myself included--say that yes, it is possible.  We can give it up.  We can neglect it to the point of losing it.  We can reject it in favor of sin.  We can even renounce our grace and our salvation.  Our position begins to look similar to the LDS view, then.  The one aspect I would strain at is that Evangelicals argue that the one who obeys the Lord in baptism is doing so as one who is already saved.  The Christian who "endures to the end," was saved the entire time.  He doesn't gain assurance of his salvation at the end.  He's had it all along the way.  The good works are signals of a salvation already gained, not some kind of installment payments that assure that I get the salvation when the mortgage is paid off.

 

I just caught the last post The Folk Prophet published, and want to add that he captures the dilemma quite well.  LDS strive to please God even as they are repenting.  We Evangelicals (and Protestants in general) believe there is no pleasing God until we first repent.  We come empty-handed.  We don't dare try to bring anything that would appear to lessen the reality of our sin.  The agency is in choosing to repent.  Once converted, what will we do for God.  30-fold?  60-fold?  100-fold?  That too is agency.  Those of us who do believe salvation can be lost would add that, whether through renunciation or neglect, the giving up of salvation is also agency.  Without love, and without the direction, approval and yes empowerment of the Holy Spirit, our good works, even after conversion, won't amount to much.  The greatest work is sincerely walking with God--doing his thing in his way and in his time.