Salvation Without Faith

[Snow]

On thread Serapha made the statement: "Anyone who has not heard a clear presentation of the Gospel of Christ will not be lost."

Since there are the saved and the unsaved that must mean that Anyone who has not heard a clear presentation of the Gospel of Christ will not be saved. No problem there - that good solid Mormon thinking - a bit incomplete but fits nicely into the framework of the restored gospel.

However, my question for any evangelical types is, Is Serapha correcet or is it a principle of Christian doctrine that acceptance of Jesus Christ and having faith in him is no longer a requirement of salvation? Is there any scriptural support for her contention?

[Maureen]

Probably like in the OT the Jews were judged by the Law because they had it, while the Gentiles were not because they did not have the Law.

So the same could apply here. A person cannot be judged for being ignorant of a certain type of knowledge. Faith is produced because some have come to that knowledge. You cannot have faith in something you do not know exists.

M.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Maureen@Mar 26 2004, 02:36 PM

So the same could apply here. A person cannot be judged for being ignorant of a certain type of knowledge. Faith is produced because some have come to that knowledge. You cannot have faith in something you do not know exists.

M.

That makes sense to me Maureen. I am just wondering how someone (non-LDS) justifies it by the scriptures.

Not only are work not required, faith is not even required...

[serapha]

Is Serapha correcet or is it a principle of Christian doctrine that acceptance of Jesus Christ and having faith in him is no longer a requirement of salvation? Is there any scriptural support for her contention?

Romans Chapter 1 and 2, for example.... the invisible qualities of God.

~serapha~

[Rodney]

Originally posted by Snow@Mar 26 2004, 12:45 PM

On thread Serapha made the statement: "Anyone who has not heard a clear presentation of the Gospel of Christ will not be lost."

Oh joy! I certainly hope you're right. I'm pretty sure the missionaries who taught me mumbled a heckuva lot!

[inactivetx]

I remember in college attending a service at a non-demonational Bible church and the pastor saying that the Austrialian Aborignise (sp) who have not heard of Christ are damned to hell. I found that offensive that a God of love would indiscriminately damn people due to no fault of their own.

ps - that's the MC concept of eternal hell - not LDS spirit prison, in which case the pastor is correct

[Tr2]

I am just wondering how someone (non-LDS) justifies it by the scriptures.

Somewhere in the NT I could have sworn that I read that nobody comes to the Father except by way of the Son (ie Jesus). I didn't see any clauses or exceptions to that rule. Anybody else? Not asking for personal opinions, just asking for scriptural references.

I think it stinks if somebody goes their whole lives without hearing about Jesus, but I've come to understand that God's ways aren't my ways(anybody else realized that our ways aren't God's ways?). I do have an unfounded belief that God will find a way to reach people if they have never heard of him. I believe this because of the parable of the lost sheep. I try not to limit God.

But besides, these days that kind of idea just isn't that realistic. There are millions of Christian missionaries on every continent preaching the message of Jesus. I read once that 500,000 missionaries are killed every year (I'll post the source if I find it). I can't honestly see that there are people groups out there who don't know who Jesus is. I believe there are many people out there who have rejected him though.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Tr2@Mar 26 2004, 06:46 PM

I read once that 500,000 missionaries are killed every year (I'll post the source if I find it).

Well let's see. Maybe 6 million Jews died in the holocaust and you believe that a holocaust worth die every 12 years?

Don't ya think that there might have been a small mention of that in the media?

The LDS Church has what is likely the largest missionary force of any US denomination and it total, what, 75,000 and has, what, 1 or 2 deaths a year, if that.

You need a math lesson my dear friend and don't slack off on the basics.

[serapha]

Originally posted by Tr2@Mar 26 2004, 06:46 PM

I read once that 500,000 missionaries are killed every year (I'll post the source if I find it).

Well let's see. Maybe 6 million Jews died in the holocaust and you believe that a holocaust worth die every 12 years?

Don't ya think that there might have been a small mention of that in the media?

The LDS Church has what is likely the largest missionary force of any US denomination and it total, what, 75,000 and has, what, 1 or 2 deaths a year, if that.

You need a math lesson my dear friend and don't slack off on the basics.

Well, an added two cents worth. In April 614 AD, 50,000 Christians were martyred in Israel under the combined efforts of the Persians and the Jews. At that time, Christianity was the #1 religion in Israel, and the Jews wanted the Christians all dead. The Persians wanted the Jew back in control, so they combined forces to kill the 50,000 people in one day. It is estimated that 30,000 died in one day in Israel, and the record of "Simeon, the funeral director" identifies the location of mass graves in the area of Jerusalem. One of those mass graves has been located and excavated revealing countless bodies.

I was present at the excavation of a mass grave relative to this same day, and the grave contained hundreds of bodies... and there is very little written about these deaths.

If 50,000 people could be martyred in one day in Israel without significant reference...

and millions of people died in battle in the book of Ether without any significant reference (no glyphs reference this) ...

then why is it so difficult to believe that 500,000 missionaries could die in one year without a significant record?

China isn't going to tell you that they killed missonaries, now are they?

~serapha~

[Snow]

Serapha,

You are or want to be an archeologist right? They train you in scientific methods, right? Think about this for a moment. I have no idea how many missionaries are killed per year but let me give a few ways to approach the problems so that you can see how incredibly silly the idea is.

Let's say that the LDS missionary death rate is about 3 per 100,000 per year. That figure may be high (or maybe it is even low which I doubt) but let's start there. Now, let's say that God protects Mormon missionaries more than he protects other missionaries (for the sake of argument). So, being less protected, let's imagine that other Christian missionaries are twice as likely to die. Heck, for the sake of arguement, let's make it three times or better yet a whopping 5 times. At that improbable rate there would have to be 3.3 billion Christian missionaries in the world every year. But there are only 2 billion Christians so at the very least 1,300,000,000 of them would have to me Muslins, Hindus, Buddahist or atheists pretending to be Christian Missionaries. Does that make any sense?

Look at it another way. There are 2 billion Christians in the world. Now, the LDS people are way, way, way more missionary oriented than the general Christian population and they are missionaries at the rate of 1 per 137.5 people. So, for the sake of argument, let's pretend that all of Christianity were as missionary minded as the Mormons. (there not, not by a long shot but let's pretend for the sake of argument) That would mean that there are 14,545,454 missionaries in the world and their death rate would be 1 per 29 or 3.4% Remember the Mormon missionary death rate is 3 per 100,000 or 0.0003%. Does that make any sense?

How about this. The death toll from WW I was maybe 37 million, yet you want us to believe that since that war (given a steady death rate) that the entire casualty rate of the all countries in the world war has been equaled just by killed Christian missionaries?

Yeah, I go back to my prior point. If a million missionaries were being killed every 2 years, thier might be a tiny blurb about it in the media...

[Tr2]

Well let's see. Maybe 6 million Jews died in the holocaust and you believe that a holocaust worth die every 12 years?

Don't ya think that there might have been a small mention of that in the media?

Are we back to the argument that because you do not believe it then it cannot be true?

You need a math lesson my dear friend and don't slack off on the basics.

If you have a problem with those numbers, then take it up with the source who quoted that.

The LDS Church has what is likely the largest missionary force of any US denomination and it total, what, 75,000 and has, what, 1 or 2 deaths a year, if that.

Nobody else keeps track of their missionaries like the LDS do so you have no basis for saying that. The LDS have the largest number of missionaries out of the churches who keep a detailed record of who goes where. The catholics don't keep a national record of their missionaries nor do the Baptists, the United church, or the church of God. All of these are larger than the LDS church in and do not keep a record. Since nobody keeps a record like you do, your argument doesn't hold a lot of water. You are trying to compare something you have with something that doesn't exist.

Don't ya think that there might have been a small mention of that in the media?

The media? The same media that ignored a biblical-scale famine for over a year in Somalia in 1993? The same media that is covering the mass scale ethnic cleansings in Africa? If the media doesn't say it's true then I guess we have a fairy tale then huh? Does CNN go to Africa and China on a regular basis to report the number of innocent people slaughtered each year?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Tr2@Mar 27 2004, 05:11 AM

Are we back to the argument that because you do not believe it then it cannot be true?

The LDS have the largest number of missionaries out of the churches who keep a detailed record of who goes where. The catholics don't keep a national record of their missionaries nor do the Baptists, the United church, or the church of God. All of these are larger than the LDS church in and do not keep a record. Since nobody keeps a record like you do, your argument doesn't hold a lot of water. You are trying to compare something you have with something that doesn't exist.

Don't ya think that there might have been a small mention of that in the media?

The media? The same media that ignored a biblical-scale famine for over a year in Somalia in 1993? The same media that is covering the mass scale ethnic cleansings in Africa? If the media doesn't say it's true then I guess we have a fairy tale then huh? Does CNN go to Africa and China on a regular basis to report the number of innocent people slaughtered each year?

So sorry. Wrong again. The argument is not what I think. The argument is that 500,000 is impossible.

If you have a problem with those numbers, then take it up with the source who quoted that.

Are you for real? There was no source who quote that, there was only you. You are the one that said that. I am taking it up with you.

Nobody else keeps track of their missionaries like the LDS do so you have no basis for saying that.

Please explain the method in which the Lutheran Churcn - Missouri Synod keeps track of the missionaries. Just kidding, I know you were just bluffing.

Oh, and by the way. I already know death rates. The second I read your post I knew that you were impossibly wrong. It like someone describing Shaquile O Neal at 37 feet tall. Sure he is tall but he ain't no 37 feet. So you can argue all you like but any time I want I can post some stats and prove you wrong. Go ahead and argue.

[Snow]

Oh Trident, don't you have a rejoinder, a replication, a retort, a return, a riposte?

Nuttin?

[Tr2]

No. I am sick and tired of playing your stupid games where you do nothing but say "wrong" and "liar". You are doing nothing more than giving your opinions. I stopped caring about your opinions a long time ago. If you want to give some kind of reasoning behind it, I may listen. Until then go play on the swings with the other 6 year olds where the world is only what you'd like it to be.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Would you want to run with that dog of an argument?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Tr2@Apr 2 2004, 01:44 PM

If you want to give some kind of reasoning behind it, I may listen.

I think I said this:

Let's say that the LDS missionary death rate is about 3 per 100,000 per year. That figure may be high (or maybe it is even low which I doubt) but let's start there. Now, let's say that God protects Mormon missionaries more than he protects other missionaries (for the sake of argument). So, being less protected, let's imagine that other Christian missionaries are twice as likely to die. Heck, for the sake of arguement, let's make it three times or better yet a whopping 5 times. At that improbable rate there would have to be 3.3 billion Christian missionaries in the world every year. But there are only 2 billion Christians so at the very least 1,300,000,000 of them would have to me Muslins, Hindus, Buddahist or atheists pretending to be Christian Missionaries. Does that make any sense?

Look at it another way. There are 2 billion Christians in the world. Now, the LDS people are way, way, way more missionary oriented than the general Christian population and they are missionaries at the rate of 1 per 137.5 people. So, for the sake of argument, let's pretend that all of Christianity were as missionary minded as the Mormons. (there not, not by a long shot but let's pretend for the sake of argument) That would mean that there are 14,545,454 missionaries in the world and their death rate would be 1 per 29 or 3.4% Remember the Mormon missionary death rate is 3 per 100,000 or 0.0003%. Does that make any sense?

How about this. The death toll from WW I was maybe 37 million, yet you want us to believe that since that war (given a steady death rate) that the entire casualty rate of the all countries in the world war has been equaled just by killed Christian missionaries?

Yeah, I go back to my prior point. If a million missionaries were being killed every 2 years, thier might be a tiny blurb about it in the media...

Maybe you think my reasoning, or my math is faulty. Maybe it is, but obviously rather than pointing out my error, you would rather act like I didn't have a line of reasoning. However, even if my reasoning is off, I have some sources of stats.

[Tr2]

Maybe you think my reasoning, or my math is faulty. Maybe it is, but obviously rather than pointing out my error, you would rather act like I didn't have a line of reasoning. However, even if my reasoning is off, I have some sources of stats.

I am finding this funny, as I'm sure others are too. You are pushing a topic that I can't go any further with at this point. I have mentioned more than once that I need to locate my source. Without my source, there is no discussion here. But you want to have one anyways. That is where I think your reasoning is silly. You are just so eager to pick a fight. Well go pick one somewhere else. You are boring me.

[serapha]

Let me see... 45 million divided by 100 years... that would average 450,000 a year...

http://www.creativeministry.org/research/T...TrendsMay03.htm

Christian Martyrs–Not Just Ancient History

Scholars have admitted in a respected academic journal that they are surprised by the magnitude of a new accounting of Christian who have suffered death for their faith during the 20 th century. "Nothing in mainstream scholarship prepares one for such a colossal reckoning of human suffering," writes Michael J. McClymond, associate professor of theology at St. Louis University, about David Barrett’s statistics in the revised edition of the World Christian Encyclopedia published by Oxford University Press.

The total number of Christian martyrs is reported at 45 million during the 20 th century. The definition: "Believers in Christ who lost their lives prematurely, in situations of witness, as a result of human hostility."

This includes Christian affiliated with the known denominations and unaffiliated Christians, and even crypto-Christians who may be living in settings where they feel they must keep their profession of Christ secret. Included among the 45 million are entire villages of Armenian Christians who were lined up in 1915 and given the choice, "Christ or Muhammad?" and immediately shot if they chose Christ. "In 1977 the same choice was offered to [Anglican] Archbishop Janani Luwun of Uganda, who was shot through the mouth by the national leader himself, Idi Amin." Many others are included from communist China and the former Soviet Union. "The Salvadoran [Catholic] Archbishop Oscar Romero, gunned down in 1980 while celebrating the Eucharist, is counted as a Christian martyr because his advocacy on behalf of the poor–the proximate cause of his death–was inseparable from his ministry and witness as a churchman." Of course, a number of Seventh-day Adventists are included in the count who died refusing to work on the Sabbath or to confess political wrong-doing for simple acts of evangelism and similar reasons.

Source: Journal of the American Academy of Religion, December 2002

[Snow]

Originally posted by serapha@Apr 4 2004, 12:00 PM

Let me see... 45 million divided by 100 years... that would average 450,000 a year...

http://www.creativeministry.org/research/T...TrendsMay03.htm

Christian Martyrs–Not Just Ancient History

Scholars have admitted in a respected academic journal that they are surprised by the magnitude of a new accounting of Christian who have suffered death for their faith during the 20 th century. "Nothing in mainstream scholarship prepares one for such a colossal reckoning of human suffering," writes Michael J. McClymond, associate professor of theology at St. Louis University, about David Barrett’s statistics in the revised edition of the World Christian Encyclopedia published by Oxford University Press.

The total number of Christian martyrs is reported at 45 million during the 20 th century. The definition: "Believers in Christ who lost their lives prematurely, in situations of witness, as a result of human hostility."

This includes Christian affiliated with the known denominations and unaffiliated Christians, and even crypto-Christians who may be living in settings where they feel they must keep their profession of Christ secret. Included among the 45 million are entire villages of Armenian Christians who were lined up in 1915 and given the choice, "Christ or Muhammad?" and immediately shot if they chose Christ. "In 1977 the same choice was offered to [Anglican] Archbishop Janani Luwun of Uganda, who was shot through the mouth by the national leader himself, Idi Amin." Many others are included from communist China and the former Soviet Union. "The Salvadoran [Catholic] Archbishop Oscar Romero, gunned down in 1980 while celebrating the Eucharist, is counted as a Christian martyr because his advocacy on behalf of the poor–the proximate cause of his death–was inseparable from his ministry and witness as a churchman." Of course, a number of Seventh-day Adventists are included in the count who died refusing to work on the Sabbath or to confess political wrong-doing for simple acts of evangelism and similar reasons.

Source: Journal of the American Academy of Religion, December 2002

Serapha,

We're not talking about Christians. We're talking about Christian missionaries.

[Tr2]

It seems that Sephara has located my source.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Tr2@Apr 4 2004, 04:40 PM

It seems that Sephara has located my source.

Wrong,

You were talking about missionaries. Don't make up something now to retro-fit your statement to something Serapha just found.

Besides, I don't think that it would take but a moment or two to cast serious doubt on those statistic, even though they don't address Trident's original claim.

For example: according to the World Health Organization, death due to violence totals 4 million per year, 3 million in underdevoloped countries. Since religious martyrdom in developed contries is very, very, very low, we would consider that the vast bulk of Trident's 450 to 500,000 must happen in the developing countries. So for all violent deaths from all causes, the article sited by Serapha would have us believe that fully 15% were Christians being killed, because of the faith - 'IN SITUATIONS OF WITNESS."

Rrriiiiiiggghhhttt. And they say Mormons have a persecution complex. Take a look in an almanac. Martrydom doesn't even make the list for leading causes of death.

[Tr2]

Knew that was coming.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Tr2@Apr 4 2004, 06:22 PM

Knew that was coming.

Just as I knew you can't refute my posts.

[Tr2]

Just as I knew you can't refute my posts.

Yea, that's it.

[Maureen]

From the essay, My Understanding of the Biblical Doctrine of Election by Daniel B. Wallace, Ph.D. he says of God and the doctrine of Election:

…Many folks want to seek a balance between God's sovereignty and human free will. A balance needs to be sought, but this is not the place. Nowhere do we read in the Bible that God is not sovereign over our wills. Further, we have the explicit testimony of Romans 9 to the opposite effect. As well, there is an inherent imbalance between a creature's will and the Creator's will. What right do we have to claim that these two are equal?

The real balance comes between the two broad categories of God's attributes. God has moral attributes (goodness, love, mercy, justice, etc.) and amoral attributes (he is infinite, eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, etc.). In short, the balance is between his sovereignty and his goodness. If God only had amoral attributes, he may well be a tyrant. If he only had moral attributes, he would be incapable of effecting change in the world; he would be impotent.

Putting all this together we see the majesty and mystery of God. God's attributes cannot be compartmentalized. That is, he is good in his sovereignty, infinite in his mercy, loving in his omnipotence. However, we as mere finite creatures cannot comprehend the grandeur of his plan. Isaiah 55:8-9 says: "My ways are not your ways, and my thoughts are not your thoughts; but just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." There is no contradiction in God, but there is finite understanding in us.

So getting back to the original thought to this thread; how does the atonement affect those who were not able to come to knowledge of Christ and therefore not have faith and believe in his power as Saviour.

The doctrine of election tells us that God chooses who he desires to know Him through the power of the Holy Spirit (without taking away free choice), which in turn can be like a domino effect; when we share with others the wonderfulness of God.

Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms in Christ. For he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world that we may be holy and unblemished in his sight in love. He did this by predestining us to adoption as his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the pleasure of his will— to the praise of the glory of his grace that he has freely bestowed on us in his dearly loved Son. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace that he lavished on us in all wisdom and insight. He did this when he revealed to us the secret of his will, according to his good pleasure that he set forth in Christ, toward the administration of the fullness of the times, to head up all things in Christ—the things in heaven and the things on earth. In Christ we too have been claimed as God’s own possession, since we were predestined according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will so that we, who were the first to set our hope on Christ, would be to the praise of his glory. And when you heard the word of truth (the gospel of your salvation)—when you believed in Christ—you were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit, who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:3-14)

The book of Romans I believe may have the answer (in a round about way) how faith is central to knowing about God but also that life is not so cut and dry and that not everyone can come to that knowledge. Romans says this:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth by their unrighteousness, because what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse. (Romans 1:18-20)

These verses though seem to be talking about people who have a choice because of knowledge and have chosen to reject God.

Romans also says:

But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we preach), because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and thus has righteousness and with the mouth one confesses and thus has salvation. For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between the Jew and the Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who richly blesses all who call on him. For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. How are they to call on one they have not believed in? And how are they to believe in one they have not heard of? And how are they to hear without someone preaching to them? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How timely is the arrival of those who proclaim the good news.” But not all have obeyed the good news, for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Consequently faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the preached word of Christ. (Romans 10:8-17)

So through the doctrine of election God has supplied us with knowledge of Him through the proclaiming of His good news by those he has chosen to proclaim Him, ie ministers, preachers, missionaries, even ourselves.

Paul asks:

But I ask, have they not heard? Yes, they have: Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world. But again I ask, didn’t Israel understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous by those who are not a nation; with a senseless nation I will provoke you to anger.” And Isaiah is even bold enough to say, “I was found by those who did not seek me; I became well known to those who did not ask for me.” But about Israel he says, “All day long I held out my hands to this disobedient and stubborn people!” (Romans 10:18-21)

Paul is specifically talking about Israel here. Israel has rejected Christ, so does that make them lost, their situation hopeless?. No! Ecclesiastes 3:1 says:

For everything there is an appointed time, and an appropriate time for every activity on earth…

Romans 11:32-36 says:

For God has consigned all people to disobedience so that he may show mercy to them all. Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how fathomless his ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor? Or who has first given to God, that God needs to repay him? For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever! Amen.

So God is really in charge. If God is waiting for an appropriate time to bless Israel he more than likely has the same intent for those who made their own choice to reject God and for those who had no choice.

...but as it is written: “Those who were not told about him will see, and those who have not heard will understand.” (Romans 15:21, see also Isaiah 52:15)

But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8)

I believe God gives mankind many chances to know Him, through the Holy Spirit. In the end I believe God will have the final say on who will have salvation and whatever he chooses and judges will be good.

M.