Salvation Without Faith

[Snow]

Maureen,

Are you Calvanistic?

Do you believe in pre-destination?

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Snow@Apr 6 2004, 05:03 PM

Maureen,

Are you Calvanistic?

Do you believe in pre-destination?

I'm not sure - but I think I believe in the doctrine of Election.

M.

[Guest Starsky]

Interesting. I was just studying stuff about 'calling and election'.

[Lindy]

inactivetx says...

I remember in college attending a service at a non-demonational Bible church and the pastor saying that the Austrialian Aborignise (sp) who have not heard of Christ are damned to hell. I found that offensive that a God of love would indiscriminately damn people due to no fault of their own.

Tr2 says...

I think it stinks if somebody goes their whole lives without hearing about Jesus, but I've come to understand that God's ways aren't my ways(anybody else realized that our ways aren't God's ways?). I do have an unfounded belief that God will find a way to reach people if they have never heard of him. I believe this because of the parable of the lost sheep. I try not to limit God.

Funny that I heard parts of both of these statements on a road trip a couple of weeks ago. The guy driving (non lds) had asked what would I think will happen with the Aborigines' (sp) after they died, since they never had the chance to hear about the gospel or the life of Christ. Did I think that they would be damned to hell like he was told they would be?

I told him that I didn't think anything of the sort, and then told him what we believed about the spirit world (holding tank I think I also called it) and that I thought that all deserving people would have the chance to hear.

The guy also said that he understood that God's ways aren't our ways, and that he wondered how God planned on reaching people who never heard of Him.... that I gave him food for thought, and that made the long drive all the much better.

Sometimes you surprise me Tr2 with what you come up with, you sound like a lot of people I talk to with statements like above. People that I hold conversations with, listen to and actually get along with. :)

[Snow]

Originally posted by Maureen+Apr 7 2004, 06:49 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maureen @ Apr 7 2004, 06:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Apr 6 2004, 05:03 PM

Maureen,

Are you Calvanistic?

Do you believe in pre-destination?

I'm not sure - but I think I believe in the doctrine of Election.

M.

Which is? That God chooses whom he will bless to have faith in Christ?

On what basis would a just God so elect?

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Snow+Apr 7 2004, 09:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Apr 7 2004, 09:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Maureen@Apr 7 2004, 06:49 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Apr 6 2004, 05:03 PM

Maureen,

Are you Calvanistic?

Do you believe in pre-destination?

I'm not sure - but I think I believe in the doctrine of Election.

M.

Which is? That God chooses whom he will bless to have faith in Christ?

On what basis would a just God so elect?

D&C 38: 26

26 For what man among you having twelve sons, and is no respecter of them, and they serve him obediently, and he saith unto the one: Be thou clothed in robes and sit thou here; and to the other: Be thou clothed in rags and sit thou there—and looketh upon his sons and saith I am just?

James 2: 3

3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:

[Tr2]

Which is? That God chooses whom he will bless to have faith in Christ?

On what basis would a just God so elect?

Has it ever occured to you to ask Him?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Tr2@Apr 8 2004, 02:37 AM

Which is? That God chooses whom he will bless to have faith in Christ?

On what basis would a just God so elect?

Has it ever occured to you to ask Him?

I'm sorry Trident, You've missed the point.

I don't believe in the idea of election (as I understand it). I believe it is antiethical to the fundamental concept of free agency.

I asked Maureen for her opinion because I was interested in Maureen's opinion.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Snow@Apr 7 2004, 09:59 PM

Which is? That God chooses whom he will bless to have faith in Christ?

On what basis would a just God so elect?

This is how I understand the doctrine of Election. This is new to me so I'm still trying to figure it out myself:

Man because of sin does not naturally seek after God:

…just as it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one, there is no one who understands, there is no one who seeks God. (Romans 3:10-11)

God instead seeks after man to draw mankind to Him:

Or do you have contempt for the wealth of his kindness, forbearance, and patience, and yet do not know that God’s kindness leads you to repentance? (Romans 2:4)

The true light, who gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. (John 1:9)

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” (John 12:32)

Then Jesus spoke out again, “I am the light of the world." (John 8:12)

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44)

Even if God seeks after mankind it is still up to mankind to make the final choice.

…because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and thus has righteousness and with the mouth one confesses and thus has salvation. (Romans 10:9-10)

If God is omniscient he is insightful regarding the heart and mind of man. Through God’s irresistible grace mankind is kindly persuaded into noticing God. But because of mankind’s sinful nature, man will not make the first move so God must seek out man to save him.

For a more detailed look, see:

http://www.bible.org/docs/soapbox/election.htm

M.

[Snow]

Hey Maureen,

I don't think I have a problem with that but what I am wondering is - in such a view, does God elect some to be blessed with irresitable grace and not elect others and if it is irresistable, how is it still up to the person to decide to accept God? If a decision were still up to the person, that would make the grace merely enticing, not irresistable.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Snow@Apr 8 2004, 11:00 AM

Hey Maureen,

I don't think I have a problem with that but what I am wondering is - in such a view, does God elect some to be blessed with irresitable grace and not elect others and if it is irresistable, how is it still up to the person to decide to accept God? If a decision were still up to the person, that would make the grace merely enticing, not irresistable.

Snow - this is how I see it.

God is sovereign. He is supreme in all things. Everything that exists and happens to the good of mankind and to His glory is because of Him. God made His plan from the beginning (maybe even before the beginning). Nothing can stop God’s plan, not even man’s sinfulness. God has predetermined or predestined from the beginning what His plan is – the salvation of mankind.

And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose, because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; and those he called, he also justified; and those he justified, he also glorified. (Romans 8:28-30)

God chose Israel to be the community that Christ would be born into. God chose that Christ would die for the sins of the world. God chooses people for His purpose, to make His plan come to fruition. Mankind is separated from God and does not even seek God. God has chosen to seek out or call certain people (the elect) to bring mankind to God. In the OT God chose prophets to proclaim to mankind - Himself. In the NT the good news of God was proclaimed by apostles and by Christ.

I believe the purpose of the elect is to be God’s instruments in proclaiming the good news of God to mankind. It is through irresistible grace that the elect are able to receive their calling. Only God knows who he has elected and how they are able to accept their calling so welcoming and willingly. I can only speculate how the elect having been already chosen by God can in turn by their own choice accept their calling so "irresistibly". That is the mystery of God - to bring about his plan by making it irresistible for the elect to choose God.

And in mentioning predestination earlier, this is how I understand it. Predestination and Election are NOT God choosing who will be saved and who will be damned. Predestination is God’s plan for mankind’s salvation to the glory of Himself, and he uses the elect to fulfill this predetermined (or predestined) plan.

M.

[Snow]

Maureen,

I don't know if your view of irresitable grace matches THE definition of I.G. which posits that if may is humbled before God and so comes unto to Christ, it is because God has willed him to become humble and if a man remains hard-harded and so does not come unto Christ, it is because God has not chosen to soften his heart. Work through the logic that I am too lazy to explain and the bottom line is that God does the choosing re. salvation.

Regardless of how you interpret the concept, if God's will suplants man's will to freely choose Christ, how can that be reconciled with justice?

Myself, I am not a fan of explaining away the complexities or illogic by making an appeal to mystery, hence my opposition to trinitarian creeds. Does it make sense that God has created for himself a ontological existence that is so mysterious that the ones he is explaining it to are not bright enough to understand? Not to me.

[Snow]

Besides Maureen, I am not sure that I agree with the thought that absent I.G. man is naturally non-inclined to seek God. Setting aside scriptural debate for a moment, I think that man's history is a pallete, albeit a disjointed and chaotic one, of man seeking god or a some facimile thereof and if failing, then creating a substitute. It seems to me that there is some gravitational pull towards God and I don't think you can say that it is antiethical to man's nature. As you know, LDS theology holds that man is of the same species as God. If that is so, while the world may lead him astray, the natural inclination would tend towards his maker.

[Tr2]

QUOTE (Tr2 @ Apr 8 2004, 02:37 AM)

QUOTE

Which is? That God chooses whom he will bless to have faith in Christ?

On what basis would a just God so elect?

Has it ever occured to you to ask Him?

I'm sorry Trident, You've missed the point.

I don't believe in the idea of election (as I understand it). I believe it is antiethical to the fundamental concept of free agency.

"No" would have done just fine.