Are garments required after death?

[Poppy]

There is a policy about burning dead folk. It's discouraged. There is policy about how to deal with the disposal of garments, but burning is not problematic within the scope of said policy.

 

There is no policy on cremation.

 

From the LDS Church Handbook -

 

 21.3.2

Cremation

The Church does not normally encourage cremation. The family of the deceased must decide whether the body should be cremated, taking into account any laws governing burial or cremation. In some countries, the law requires cremation.

Where possible, the body of a deceased member who has been endowed should be dressed in temple clothing when it is cremated. A funeral service may be held (see 18.6).

It is discussed at length in Answers to Gospel Questions - Joseph Fielding Smith

[The Folk Prophet]

TFP, I don't know about that.

 

 

I have also heard that if you're a non-believer in this life, and not just, but harbour serious disregard towards the Lord - that isn't just magically going to change in the next life. Which is why people are still offered and have the opportunity to accept the gospel and be baptised post-mortem. So I would challenge the notion that we won't know what we want and don't want. I believe we will be aware of the things we desire and don't desire in the next life. Of course, that doesn't mean our view can't or won't change, that's not what I've said.

 

I disagree, and here's why. You are forgetting that our entire existence prior to this life (a rather insignificant blip of time in the grand scheme of things) will be remembered. We are not only who we are in this life. Yes...bad habits we have developed will continue. But we will, for example, remember quite distinctly how much we love our Father and each other. We will remember those things we loved and cared about for what may have been millennia upon millennia upon millenia -- billions upon billions of years and more (we don't really know how long we lived with our Father in the pre-existence).

 

So, yes, you're right, it won't "magically" change. But we will, undoubtedly, remember who we really are, and undoubtedly regret the stupid, mortal, selfish, sinful desires that we succumbed to in this life.

 

We do not know what we do and don't want because we don't remember who we really are. It will be like coming out of a very short-lived amnesia.

 

Moreover, applying something mortal and physical in this life (something we wear, etc.) to a state of physicality that we cannot possibly understand does not make sense. We don't know what it will feel like to be Celestialized. We don't know what will be comfortable or not. We have no concept of this whatsoever. To say something like "I won't like wearing _____________" is invalid. In some ways it reminds me of the 3-year-old in our ward that just hates to wear pants -- rips 'em off every chance he gets. I'm afraid I can't take his pants-hatred very seriously as an indication that he'll never like to wear pants though. He's 3. We are less that 3 compared to an exalted being. We are less than ants. Less than the dirt. I'm sure that's how our ridiculous mortal attitudes come across to Heavenly Father. He smiles, but He also knows better.

[The Folk Prophet]

There is no policy on cremation.

 

From the LDS Church Handbook -

 

 21.3.2

Cremation

The Church does not normally encourage cremation. The family of the deceased must decide whether the body should be cremated, taking into account any laws governing burial or cremation. In some countries, the law requires cremation.

Where possible, the body of a deceased member who has been endowed should be dressed in temple clothing when it is cremated. A funeral service may be held (see 18.6).

It is discussed at length in Answers to Gospel Questions - Joseph Fielding Smith

 

How is the above not a policy? Even "decide for yourselves, the church has no opinion" is a policy. The above is very, very clearly a policy. The church does not normally encourage but the family must decide, particularly as relating to laws, and if cremated they should be dressed.... That is a policy.

[Bini]

TFP, and that's why I said this: Of course, that doesn't mean our view can't or won't change...

 

 

And so, I maintain that we will retain what we desire and won't desire, but again, that doesn't mean our view can't or won't change... Saying this, part of your post got me thinking. It almost sounds like there's a rebound board that we can all fall back on in the next life, regardless of how crummy a life we lived on earth. So if we are all to truly know and understand the magnitude of our shortcomings and sins, and will be overcome by God's presence, then what was the point of coming to earth to begin with if we're just likely to change course? Something to think about I guess.

[The Folk Prophet]

TFP, and that's why I said this: Of course, that doesn't mean our view can't or won't change...

 

 

And so, I maintain that we will retain what we desire and won't desire, but again, that doesn't mean our view can't or won't change... Saying this, part of your post got me thinking. It almost sounds like there's a rebound board that we can all fall back on in the next life, regardless of how crummy a life we lived on earth. So if we are all to truly know and understand the magnitude of our shortcomings and sins, and will be overcome by God's presence, then what was the point of coming to earth to begin with if we're just likely to change course? Something to think about I guess.

 

Our final estate will be established by the choices we made in this life. The keeping of our first estate determined our right to have a second estate. All of us will pay for our sins except those who are redeemed by the atonement through repentance. I think it safe to say that the agony we face in the payment of those sins will teach us pretty clearly the wrongness of our ways. The idea that people will still be running around in the Telestial kingdom with strong desires to lie, cheat, steal, and murder is inaccurate. But you do bring up an interesting thought, and it's a bit of a doctrinal conflict for me. I need to think about it and do some reading.

[MarginOfError]

I disagree, and here's why. You are forgetting that our entire existence prior to this life (a rather insignificant blip of time in the grand scheme of things) will be remembered. We are not only who we are in this life. Yes...bad habits we have developed will continue. But we will, for example, remember quite distinctly how much we love our Father and each other. We will remember those things we loved and cared about for what may have been millennia upon millennia upon millenia -- billions upon billions of years and more (we don't really know how long we lived with our Father in the pre-existence).

 

So, yes, you're right, it won't "magically" change. But we will, undoubtedly, remember who we really are, and undoubtedly regret the stupid, mortal, selfish, sinful desires that we succumbed to in this life.

 

We do not know what we do and don't want because we don't remember who we really are. It will be like coming out of a very short-lived amnesia.

 

Moreover, applying something mortal and physical in this life (something we wear, etc.) to a state of physicality that we cannot possibly understand does not make sense. We don't know what it will feel like to be Celestialized. We don't know what will be comfortable or not. We have no concept of this whatsoever. To say something like "I won't like wearing _____________" is invalid. In some ways it reminds me of the 3-year-old in our ward that just hates to wear pants -- rips 'em off every chance he gets. I'm afraid I can't take his pants-hatred very seriously as an indication that he'll never like to wear pants though. He's 3. We are less that 3 compared to an exalted being. We are less than ants. Less than the dirt. I'm sure that's how our ridiculous mortal attitudes come across to Heavenly Father. He smiles, but He also knows better.

 

To be perfectly honest, the supposition that I will find joy in eternally wearing a garment that is constantly bunched up under my armpits makes as much sense as the supposition that I will continue to not enjoy that feeling.

 

Garments are, to me, a temporary nuisance I put up with because I covenanted to wear them throughout my life.  If you think that speak poorly of my spiritual maturity, too bad.  Welcome to humanity.  

 

If we are going to be required to wear them eternally (and I highly doubt that's the case) I assure you that I'll be plenty outspoken about the need for better garment design and fitting than what the temporal church makes available*.

 

 

* unless of course I'm told that I can't feel true joy in a celestialized world without the oppositional feeling of pain, in which case the current options for garments would be a fitting (see what I did there) approach to helping me feel joy**.

 

 

** Yes, now I'm just screwing with you.

[The Folk Prophet]

To be perfectly honest, the supposition that I will find joy in eternally wearing a garment that is constantly bunched up under my armpits makes as much sense as the supposition that I will continue to not enjoy that feeling.

 

Garments are, to me, a temporary nuisance I put up with because I covenanted to wear them throughout my life.  If you think that speak poorly of my spiritual maturity, too bad.  Welcome to humanity.  

 

If we are going to be required to wear them eternally (and I highly doubt that's the case) I assure you that I'll be plenty outspoken about the need for better garment design and fitting than what the temporal church makes available*.

 

 

* unless of course I'm told that I can't feel true joy in a celestialized world without the oppositional feeling of pain, in which case the current options for garments would be a fitting (see what I did there) approach to helping me feel joy**.

 

 

** Yes, now I'm just screwing with you.

 

As an exalted being I'm fairly certain you could design them perfectly. :)

 

I'm not speaking of anyone's spiritual maturity. Finding garments comfortable or uncomfortable has nothing to do with that. I'm talking about a presumption of understanding a state that we can not even begin to pretend to understand. Who knows. Maybe clothes bunched up in our armpits will be a great pleasure.

 

Were I guessing...and it is nothing more than that...I'd guess we don't have any use for clothing, but adorn ourselves when appropriate, like appearing to mortals, etc... But that is a total guess. Clothing may have important and special meaning in the Celestial Kingdom. Who knows. And that's my point. Who knows. But I'm not going to say that I refuse to wear clothing if I'm secretly a nudist. And I'm not going to say I refuse to not wear clothing if I'm extra prudish. I have no idea what I'm talking about (as none of us do) in speaking of what will and won't be ideal in the Celestial sphere -- with the exception of that which has been explicitly revealed to us -- like the knowledge that we must be married. 

[MarginOfError]

As an exalted being I'm fairly certain you could design them perfectly. :)

 

 

But then I would still have issues of wearing anything in an environment with a blazing glory.  Have you seen what happens to gummy snacks when they get heated up.  I'd be reduced to a sticky goo permanently affixed to perfectly tailored cloth!

[The Folk Prophet]

But then I would still have issues of wearing anything in an environment with a blazing glory.  Have you seen what happens to gummy snacks when they get heated up.  I'd be reduced to a sticky goo permanently affixed to perfectly tailored cloth!

 

Ah...but you forget that Superman's suit is also Kryptonian.

[Just_A_Guy]

As we've gotten past the idea that people will rise from their literal graves, there has seemed to be far less organizational opposition to cremation.

 

I don't think we've "gotten past" that idea at all.  I think, to the degree that Mormons would speculate or develop a pseudo-theology about the mechanics of the resurrection, 90% of them would still surmise that the resurrection begins with the corrupt remnants of our mortal body--whether they be a corpse, a skeleton, a mass of jelly in the ground, ashes/smoke, or even a global scattering of isolated atoms that were once part of the body.

 

My understanding was that the Church's former discouragement of cremation was based, not in concerns about how the resurrection was to take place; but in (for lack of a better word) taboos about the sanctity of the body even after death.

 

I wonder if this gives any insight into the question.

 

[Moroni] had on a loose robe of most exquisite whiteness. It was a whiteness beyond anything earthly I had ever seen; nor do I believe that any earthly thing could be made to appear so exceedingly white and brilliant. His hands were naked, and his arms also, a little above the wrist; so, also, were his feet naked, as were his legs, a little above the ankles. His head and neck were also bare. I could discover that he had no other clothing on but this robe, as it was open, so that I could see into his bosom.

 

Joseph Smith History 1:31

 

The first pair of garments was made, at Joseph Smith's instructions, by a seamstress named Elizabeth Allred.  Allred's son later wrote that Joseph told Elizabeth that Moroni had worn a similarly-patterned garment; but the garment Allred produced looked nothing like what the robe described in JS-History.  So either someone's memory betrayed them; or Joseph Smith saw Moroni in at least two different sets of clothing.

 

I disagree, and here's why. You are forgetting that our entire existence prior to this life (a rather insignificant blip of time in the grand scheme of things) will be remembered. We are not only who we are in this life. Yes...bad habits we have developed will continue. But we will, for example, remember quite distinctly how much we love our Father and each other. We will remember those things we loved and cared about for what may have been millennia upon millennia upon millenia -- billions upon billions of years and more (we don't really know how long we lived with our Father in the pre-existence).

 

So, yes, you're right, it won't "magically" change. But we will, undoubtedly, remember who we really are, and undoubtedly regret the stupid, mortal, selfish, sinful desires that we succumbed to in this life.

 

We do not know what we do and don't want because we don't remember who we really are. It will be like coming out of a very short-lived amnesia.

 

 

I'm not convinced that everyone remembers everything immediately upon their entry into the Spirit World.  If they did, why would those who hadn't heard the gospel in mortality need to be taught anything?  Wouldn't they just remember the lessons they had been given in the pre-existence? 

 

No; I rather suspect that we get our memories of the pre-mortal life back "line upon line, precept upon precept"; and the ease with which that process comes to us depends on how finely we honed our abilities to receive revelation while in mortality.  For those who never came to understand this process, I imagine them being "stuck"--sort of like in the movie Ghost, for lack of a better analogy--until someone with greater light and knowledge comes and teaches them how to progress.

 

And even then:  I'm not sure that even our expanded memories (when we finally get them) will really change us.  I always thought that the whole point of our mortal probation was to find out who we really are.  What's that old statement about integrity being defined as what we do when we think no one's watching?  We may behave differently when we have our memories back; but those memories don't change us.  We will have already shown, through a lifetime of experiences and choices and priorities, what our true characters are.

[The Folk Prophet]

I'm not convinced that everyone remembers everything immediately upon their entry into the Spirit World.  If they did, why would those who hadn't heard the gospel in mortality need to be taught anything?  Wouldn't they just remember the lessons they had been given in the pre-existence? 

 

No; I rather suspect that we get our memories of the pre-mortal life back "line upon line, precept upon precept"; and the ease with which that process comes to us depends on how finely we honed our abilities to receive revelation while in mortality.  For those who never came to understand this process, I imagine them being "stuck"--sort of like in the movie Ghost, for lack of a better analogy--until someone with greater light and knowledge comes and teaches them how to progress.

 

And even then:  I'm not sure that even our expanded memories (when we finally get them) will really change us.  I always thought that the whole point of our mortal probation was to find out who we really are.  What's that old statement about integrity being defined as what we do when we think no one's watching?  We may behave differently when we have our memories back; but those memories don't change us.  We will have already shown, through a lifetime of experiences and choices and priorities, what our true characters are.

 

I did not say immediately. But I don't think it's line-upon-line either. When the veil is removed it will be, I think, all of a sudden. It will be, I think, at the judgment day, when all remembrance is brought to us. And it will be, I think, a pretty great shock to us all.  Weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth indeed.

[MacDow]

Just for clarification. the reference to garments is in the clothing ordinance, not the washing or anointing ordinance. It is instructive to remeber they are three seperate ordinances..