The Church is true

[Traveler]

I agree that there is an overlap but I do not agree that they are more similar than different, we honestly do not know.  The differences or similarities between the two might be represented by how important it is to have a body over a spirit that is just spirit matter alone.  You may say, there is hardly any difference between the two.  I would say, it was a pretty big deal for us to get this body, something our spirit body couldn't get on its own. The differences might also be represented by how far you think we have fallen from our previous status, not very far or somewhat or very far? 

 

Again - why call both matter unless there is a greater foundation of similarities than differences?  Obviously there is more similarities between spirit matter and physical matter than differences between matter and stuff that is not matter.  If you read the context of Joseph Smith's comments concerning spirit stuff - he is drawing reference to matter as we understand rather than some substance with which we have no relevant experience.

 

 

If spirit matter was the encompasing matter over both the fine and the course as you are suggesting, then why is it so important to have a body.  If the spirit body and its matter can do everything course matter can do and more then there is no need for a body and spirits who don't get a body are not made any lesser for it.  Obviously, the body adds to the spirit with something the spirit does not have intrinsically by itself.  I think the body and the spirit have some cross over but just like a Venn diagram there is a part that is just course matter alone and not part of the overlapp.  While one is viewing the Venn diagram while standing in the circle that is just course matter, one cannot see the parts that are spirit matter.  There has to be some interaction between the matter as one can influence the other but spirits are placed within certain spheres, there is a limitation and purpose to its interaction.  There is no spirit "matter" floating around that is not placed within a sphere or purpose of some kind around us. 

To try to explain the differences based in course matter terms, I think, is not going to get you anywhere.

 

 

Why does a body have to translated or transformed to see God if they are more similar than different?

 

From mathematics and physics in considering our 3 dimensional space time with other dimensions of space time - if such possibility is some reflection in reality then the integration of our spirits of different dimension with our 3 dimensional space time we become not only more powerful (expanding influence) in each dimensional space time but also have expanded influences in the sum of dimensional space time.  Or in other words the intersected whole is greater than the sum of all its parts.

 

As to the presents of G-d.  We also need protection from the sun if we were at its servface.   And that is just regular old faction matter in our 3 dimensional space time.  The problem is not so much that we cannot see anything in the presents of G-d or standing on the surface of the sun as it is the fact that there is so much energy - not only would our rods and cones in our eyes be overloaded but the intensity of energy would physically dismantle our physical elements resulting in basic elements quite different from the elements that sustain life.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Again - why call both matter unless there is a greater foundation of similarities than differences?  Obviously there is more similarities between spirit matter and physical matter than differences between matter and stuff that is not matter.  If you read the context of Joseph Smith's comments concerning spirit stuff - he is drawing reference to matter as we understand rather than some substance with which we have no relevant experience.

 

 

From mathematics and physics in considering our 3 dimensional space time with other dimensions of space time - if such possibility is some reflection in reality then the integration of our spirits of different dimension with our 3 dimensional space time we become not only more powerful (expanding influence) in each dimensional space time but also have expanded influences in the sum of dimensional space time.  Or in other words the intersected whole is greater than the sum of all its parts.

 

As to the presents of G-d.  We also need protection from the sun if we were at its servface.   And that is just regular old faction matter in our 3 dimensional space time.  The problem is not so much that we cannot see anything in the presents of G-d or standing on the surface of the sun as it is the fact that there is so much energy - not only would our rods and cones in our eyes be overloaded but the intensity of energy would physically dismantle our physical elements resulting in basic elements quite different from the elements that sustain life.

Well, I disagree with that.  There are many examples in the scriptures that clearly state that we cannot see the spiritual realm without some power or intervention to do it, it is not that it is just too powerful but maybe that is semantics.  The bottom line is that course matter in its natural state cannot see spirit matter, there has to be some transformation or power given. 

 

D&C 5; "11 And in addition to your testimony, the testimony of three of my servants, whom I shall call and ordain, unto whom I will show these things, and they shall go forth with my words that are given through you.

 12 Yea, they shall know of a surety that these things are true, for from heaven will I declare it unto them.

 13 I will give them power that they may behold and view these things as they are;"   The implication is that the power is not there naturally.

 

The only method in which these things can be viewed is through an eye of faith; Ether " 19 And there were many whose faith was so exceedingly strong, even before Christ came, who could not be kept from within the veil, but truly saw with their eyes the things which they had beheld with an eye of faith, and they were glad."

 

Moses 1; " 11 But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him."

 

Moses states it "could not" happen through natural eyes.  Whatever the "why" it could not happen doesn't matter, it simply cannot happen.

 

By the way, I can see the sun with my natural eyes, under certain circumstances.  The sun is not hidden from my natural eyes.

[Traveler]

Well, I disagree with that.  There are many examples in the scriptures that clearly state that we cannot see the spiritual realm without some power or intervention to do it, it is not that it is just too powerful but maybe that is semantics.  The bottom line is that course matter in its natural state cannot see spirit matter, there has to be some transformation or power given. 

 

D&C 5; "11 And in addition to your testimony, the testimony of three of my servants, whom I shall call and ordain, unto whom I will show these things, and they shall go forth with my words that are given through you.

 12 Yea, they shall know of a surety that these things are true, for from heaven will I declare it unto them.

 13 I will give them power that they may behold and view these things as they are;"   The implication is that the power is not there naturally.

 

The only method in which these things can be viewed is through an eye of faith; Ether " 19 And there were many whose faith was so exceedingly strong, even before Christ came, who could not be kept from within the veil, but truly saw with their eyes the things which they had beheld with an eye of faith, and they were glad."

 

Moses 1; " 11 But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him."

 

Moses states it "could not" happen through natural eyes.  Whatever the "why" it could not happen doesn't matter, it simply cannot happen.

 

By the way, I can see the sun with my natural eyes, under certain circumstances.  The sun is not hidden from my natural eyes.

 

You do not see much of the sun with your natural eyes - nor do you see much of the universe.  Your natural eyes only see electromagnetic radiation within what we call the visible spectrum.  There are many very normal things in this universe that we have discovered that cannot be seen with you natural eyes.  In fact you would wither and die on the surface of the sun - but I do not suggest that you call the sun G-d and start worshiping it.  Also if you do not have faith in telescopes and microscopes there are many other natural physical things you cannot see.

[skalenfehl]

I don't like the phrase. Nephi tells us that there are only two churches. The organization we are members of is indeed a church, or in other words, an organized body of saints. It is as "true" as the primitive church during Paul's days and as "true" as the ancient church during Isaiah's days. In other words, there is a body of saints, a number of prophets which taught them God's will, etc. Being "true," though, is a whole other discussion. I certainly believe the Book of Mormon is "true" and that the "fullness" of the gospel was restored, though very briefly and then forfeited or lost when the saints failed to build the Nauvoo Temple before Joseph Smith was taken. Since then, we have a great portion of the true gospel, but not the fullness. We do have the Aaronic Priesthood and a portion of the Melchizedek Priesthood, but not the fullness. The fullness will be restored when Zion is redeemed as prophecied by the Lord in D&C 101.

[Seminarysnoozer]

You do not see much of the sun with your natural eyes - nor do you see much of the universe.  Your natural eyes only see electromagnetic radiation within what we call the visible spectrum.  There are many very normal things in this universe that we have discovered that cannot be seen with you natural eyes.  In fact you would wither and die on the surface of the sun - but I do not suggest that you call the sun G-d and start worshiping it.  Also if you do not have faith in telescopes and microscopes there are many other natural physical things you cannot see.

If I can see any of it with my natural eyes or through "natural means" and measurement - the learning of man, then it is not spiritual matter.

 

Remember all matter was changed as a result of the Fall.  Why would all matter have to be changed if it is all one thing?   When the Earth receives its' Celestial glory

 

D&C 130; "6 The angels do not reside on a planet like this earth;

 7 But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord.

 8 The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim.

 9 This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ’s."

 

Even the matter of Earth will have to change to be in an Eternal state.

 

Ether; " 9 And there shall be a new heaven and a new earth; and they shall be like unto the old save the old have passed away, and all things have become new."  

 

"All things"!!! have become new.  Whatever you can detect or see or measure in this life will have passed away and become new.  Like, throw away the old physics text book, new!!

[Traveler]

If I can see any of it with my natural eyes or through "natural means" and measurement - the learning of man, then it is not spiritual matter.

 

Way too many assumptions.  The brother of Jared saw the spiritual finger of Christ because of his great faith.  It is the glory and power of a Celestial physical body that will consume and cause the difficulty.   I think you will find cases where evil spirits were seen with natural eyes.  And what about ears - we can hear but not see.  Nonsense - I did work for the military that created images based on sound.  The difference between seeing and hearing is just wavelengths of energy.

 

 

Remember all matter was changed as a result of the Fall.  Why would all matter have to be changed if it is all one thing?   When the Earth receives its' Celestial glory

 

Are you kidding me???   So all non-spirit matter was changed to what?  non-non-spirit matter?  or changed to matter that cannot be seen with natural (fallen) eyes to matter that can be seen with natural (fallen) eyes?  Was light changed as well?  How about energy?   So you think any element that was created before the fall - we cannot see any trace of?

 

BTW we cannot see Dark Matter - is matter that we cannot see spirit matter?   Is there a scripture that tells us what matter is that we cannot see?

 

 

D&C 130; "6 The angels do not reside on a planet like this earth;

 7 But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord.

 8 The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim.

 9 This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ’s."

 

Even the matter of Earth will have to change to be in an Eternal state.

 

Ether; " 9 And there shall be a new heaven and a new earth; and they shall be like unto the old save the old have passed away, and all things have become new."  

 

"All things"!!! have become new.  Whatever you can detect or see or measure in this life will have passed away and become new.  Like, throw away the old physics text book, new!!

And the Book of Mormon, your genealogy records, church records, Temples and ....?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Way too many assumptions.  The brother of Jared saw the spiritual finger of Christ because of his great faith.  It is the glory and power of a Celestial physical body that will consume and cause the difficulty.   I think you will find cases where evil spirits were seen with natural eyes.  And what about ears - we can hear but not see.  Nonsense - I did work for the military that created images based on sound.  The difference between seeing and hearing is just wavelengths of energy.

 

Are you kidding me???   So all non-spirit matter was changed to what?  non-non-spirit matter?  or changed to matter that cannot be seen with natural (fallen) eyes to matter that can be seen with natural (fallen) eyes?  Was light changed as well?  How about energy?   So you think any element that was created before the fall - we cannot see any trace of?

 

BTW we cannot see Dark Matter - is matter that we cannot see spirit matter?   Is there a scripture that tells us what matter is that we cannot see?

 

And the Book of Mormon, your genealogy records, church records, Temples and ....?

"Seeing" represents all modalities of detection via the human body.  It also, at times, represents understanding. 

 

For the brother of Jared to see the finger of the Lord it had to be through transformed eyes, through the eye of faith or the Lord transforming to make himself visible.

 

I don't know what spirit matter is any better than you but we can say that it is not the same thing as the physical matter around us that makes up this universe, the earth, our bodies etc.  Are there similarities?  What difference does it make if we say it is not the same?   Changing one little property of the matter could make a huge difference.

 

Lets just say, for example, that the charge of a proton in spirit matter is twice as much as it is in "course" matter.  That would change a lot of things that we know about the properties of elements around us.  Or lets say that Atoms are 1000 times smaller in fine matter as opposed to course matter, that alone would change the physics and properties of the matter from what we now have in ways that we cannot understand. Or it could be that there are 100 things different about fine matter from course matter, it would change many things about its physical properties and as we now see it.

 

I know you don't believe me, so listen to the scripture D&C  76; " 89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;"

 

I guess to you, "surpasses all understanding" is still within understanding.

[MacDow]

So, I m sorry I have not posted back. With my struggles with cultural aspects I will give an example. There is an older woman in the ward. Twice a month I pick her up for church because no one else will. I am by myself when I pick her up because my wife attends ward council. I have no problem doing this. The bishop has no problem with me doing this. I have prayed about it and believe it is the right thing. Yet many people in the ward think I should not pick her up and some have gone as far as to say that I am transgressing by doing so.

[The Folk Prophet]

So, I m sorry I have not posted back. With my struggles with cultural aspects I will give an example. There is an older woman in the ward. Twice a month I pick her up for church because no one else will. I am by myself when I pick her up because my wife attends ward council. I have no problem doing this. The bishop has no problem with me doing this. I have prayed about it and believe it is the right thing. Yet many people in the ward think I should not pick her up and some have gone as far as to say that I am transgressing by doing so.

 

I suppose it depends on your age and the "older woman's" age. If you're 30 and she's 40 then there might be problem. If your 65 and she's 70 there might be a problem. If you're 30 and she's 70 there's probably no problem.

 

Transgressing?!  Haha. Impropriety? Maybe. Transgressing? Show me that commandment anywhere. "Thou shalt not drive another woman to church if you are married under any circumstances."

[Traveler]

"Seeing" represents all modalities of detection via the human body.  It also, at times, represents understanding. 

 

For the brother of Jared to see the finger of the Lord it had to be through transformed eyes, through the eye of faith or the Lord transforming to make himself visible.

 

I don't know what spirit matter is any better than you but we can say that it is not the same thing as the physical matter around us that makes up this universe, the earth, our bodies etc.  Are there similarities?  What difference does it make if we say it is not the same?   Changing one little property of the matter could make a huge difference.

 

Lets just say, for example, that the charge of a proton in spirit matter is twice as much as it is in "course" matter.  That would change a lot of things that we know about the properties of elements around us.  Or lets say that Atoms are 1000 times smaller in fine matter as opposed to course matter, that alone would change the physics and properties of the matter from what we now have in ways that we cannot understand. Or it could be that there are 100 things different about fine matter from course matter, it would change many things about its physical properties and as we now see it.

 

I know you don't believe me, so listen to the scripture D&C  76; " 89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;"

 

I guess to you, "surpasses all understanding" is still within understanding.

It is my impression that you are speculating too much.  Not that such speculation is not good but that there is more to reality (spiritual and physical) than what you are speculating.  As for you example of spirit protons versed physical protons differing by charge.  Charge is a physically discernible characteristic.  From your definition of spirit matter a spirit proton could not possibly have charge because it would be discernible.  And since it could not have charge of any kind - we could not call it a proton.

 

In all things that G-d has created for us there is order.  We are also told that G-d is very much about order both for things physical and spiritual.  We are also instructed that the order of that which is spirit is very similar to that which is physical so much so that visually we cannot discern the difference between a physical object and the spirit of a physical object.  We are even told in scripture that evil and unclean spirits can duplicate the visual effects of an angel of light.  In the Book of Mormon Cohor saw such an evil unclean spirit and was deceived in thinking it was of G-d.  I do not think that the Holy Ghost would transform us so we can see evil spirits nor do I believe that our spiritual eyes can be deceived that we can see a unclean spirit and think it is of G-d.  I do not think you believe we are deceived through our spiritual eyes.  There must be some other possibility and the only other possibility I can think of is that we can see such things with our fallen physical eyes that because of the fall are corrupted and can be deceived.

[Traveler]

So, I m sorry I have not posted back. With my struggles with cultural aspects I will give an example. There is an older woman in the ward. Twice a month I pick her up for church because no one else will. I am by myself when I pick her up because my wife attends ward council. I have no problem doing this. The bishop has no problem with me doing this. I have prayed about it and believe it is the right thing. Yet many people in the ward think I should not pick her up and some have gone as far as to say that I am transgressing by doing so.

There is a Buddhist fable about two Buddhists monks traveling together - an older experienced and a inexperienced younger monk.  Like LDS missionaries a Buddhists monk is forbidden to touch a maiden.   While the two journeyed they came upon a beautiful young maiden by a wide river.  The young maiden was alone and in tears because she needed to cross the river but was unable to do so by herself.  After listening to the young beautiful maiden the older monk picked her up and carried her across the river and put her down on the other side and then continued in his journey with the younger monk.  However the younger monk was astonished that the older monk would break the rules and seem to think nothing of it.  For several hours as they traveled the younger monk tried to observe some sign in the older monk that a rule had been broken but found none.

 

Finely the younger monk confronted the older monk accusing him of breaking rules.  What rule - the older monk inquired?  "Why you carried that beautiful maiden across the river - you touched her and that is forbidden - what do you say to that", the younger monk inquired?  The older monk stopped thought a while and then looked upon the younger monk.  "I suppose you are right" commented the older monk.  "However, when we reached the other side of the river I put the young maiden down but you have been carrying her ever since.  I am so sorry for the burden that I cause you to carry."

[Seminarysnoozer]

It is my impression that you are speculating too much.  Not that such speculation is not good but that there is more to reality (spiritual and physical) than what you are speculating.  As for you example of spirit protons versed physical protons differing by charge.  Charge is a physically discernible characteristic.  From your definition of spirit matter a spirit proton could not possibly have charge because it would be discernible.  And since it could not have charge of any kind - we could not call it a proton.

 

In all things that G-d has created for us there is order.  We are also told that G-d is very much about order both for things physical and spiritual.  We are also instructed that the order of that which is spirit is very similar to that which is physical so much so that visually we cannot discern the difference between a physical object and the spirit of a physical object.  We are even told in scripture that evil and unclean spirits can duplicate the visual effects of an angel of light.  In the Book of Mormon Cohor saw such an evil unclean spirit and was deceived in thinking it was of G-d.  I do not think that the Holy Ghost would transform us so we can see evil spirits nor do I believe that our spiritual eyes can be deceived that we can see a unclean spirit and think it is of G-d.  I do not think you believe we are deceived through our spiritual eyes.  There must be some other possibility and the only other possibility I can think of is that we can see such things with our fallen physical eyes that because of the fall are corrupted and can be deceived.

If I didn't express myself well, I apologize.  I am not trying to say that it is not discernable theoretically as much as I am suggesting that the two would not be on the same page in a way that the physical could recognize its existence.

 

Evil spirits, Satan in particular, has been given power to bruise our heel.  This is a power given to do the things you are talking about.  This is not a natural ability of the spirit.  It will be taken back after this probationary period is over and Christ overcomes all.  I don't know to what extent and the specifics of such power given but he has been allowed this thing for a short time.

 

I believe we are decieved spiritually but indirectly though the physical reception.  If Satan was given the power to bruise our "head" metaphorically speaking, I would think differently.  But he isn't given that power, only to bruise our heel.  Satan can only affect our spiritual being if we allow it, just like if we allow the Holy Ghost to affect our spirit.

 

Elder Hales; "Although the devil laughs, his power is limited. Some may remember the old adage: “The devil made me do it.” Today I want to convey, in absolutely certain terms, that the adversary cannot make us do anything. He does lie at our door, as the scriptures say, and he follows us each day.²⁰ Every time we go out, every decision we make, we are either choosing to move in his direction or in the direction of our Savior. But the adversary must depart if we tell him to depart. He cannot influence us unless we allow him to do so, and he knows that! The only time he can affect our minds and bodies—our very spirits—is when we allow him to do so. In other words, we do not have to succumb to his enticements!"

 

“The spirit is pure, and under the special control and influence of the Lord, but the body is of the earth, and is subject to the power of the Devil, and is under the mighty influence of that fallen nature that is of the earth. If the spirit yields to the body, the Devil then has power to overcome the body and spirit of that man, and he loses both.

“Recollect, brethren and sisters, every one of you, that when evil is suggested to you, when it arises in your hearts, it is through the temporal organization. When you are tempted, buffeted, and step out of the way inadvertently; when you are overtaken in a fault, or commit an overt act unthinkingly; when you are full of evil passion, and wish to yield to it, then stop and let the spirit, which God has put into your tabernacles, take the lead. If you do that, I will promise that you will overcome all evil, and obtain eternal lives. But many, very many, let the spirit yield to the body, and are overcome and destroyed” (Discourses of Brigham Young, sel. John A. Widtsoe [1941], 70).

 

Satan hopes that we yield to the body, so his work is through the body.  Whether we let it affect our spirit or not is a spiritual thing, but it is our spirit's agency that is involved not a direct temptation to our spirits from Satan.

[Traveler]

If I didn't express myself well, I apologize.  I am not trying to say that it is not discernable theoretically as much as I am suggesting that the two would not be on the same page in a way that the physical could recognize its existence.

 

Evil spirits, Satan in particular, has been given power to bruise our heel.  This is a power given to do the things you are talking about.  This is not a natural ability of the spirit.  It will be taken back after this probationary period is over and Christ overcomes all.  I don't know to what extent and the specifics of such power given but he has been allowed this thing for a short time.

 

I believe we are decieved spiritually but indirectly though the physical reception.  If Satan was given the power to bruise our "head" metaphorically speaking, I would think differently.  But he isn't given that power, only to bruise our heel.  Satan can only affect our spiritual being if we allow it, just like if we allow the Holy Ghost to affect our spirit.

 

Elder Hales; "Although the devil laughs, his power is limited. Some may remember the old adage: “The devil made me do it.” Today I want to convey, in absolutely certain terms, that the adversary cannot make us do anything. He does lie at our door, as the scriptures say, and he follows us each day.²⁰ Every time we go out, every decision we make, we are either choosing to move in his direction or in the direction of our Savior. But the adversary must depart if we tell him to depart. He cannot influence us unless we allow him to do so, and he knows that! The only time he can affect our minds and bodies—our very spirits—is when we allow him to do so. In other words, we do not have to succumb to his enticements!"

 

“The spirit is pure, and under the special control and influence of the Lord, but the body is of the earth, and is subject to the power of the Devil, and is under the mighty influence of that fallen nature that is of the earth. If the spirit yields to the body, the Devil then has power to overcome the body and spirit of that man, and he loses both.

“Recollect, brethren and sisters, every one of you, that when evil is suggested to you, when it arises in your hearts, it is through the temporal organization. When you are tempted, buffeted, and step out of the way inadvertently; when you are overtaken in a fault, or commit an overt act unthinkingly; when you are full of evil passion, and wish to yield to it, then stop and let the spirit, which God has put into your tabernacles, take the lead. If you do that, I will promise that you will overcome all evil, and obtain eternal lives. But many, very many, let the spirit yield to the body, and are overcome and destroyed” (Discourses of Brigham Young, sel. John A. Widtsoe [1941], 70).

 

Satan hopes that we yield to the body, so his work is through the body.  Whether we let it affect our spirit or not is a spiritual thing, but it is our spirit's agency that is involved not a direct temptation to our spirits from Satan.

Your response is still not very clear - do we agree that spiritual stuff can be discerned through our corrupted physical senses?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Your response is still not very clear - do we agree that spiritual stuff can be discerned through our corrupted physical senses?

If that is your question, I believe that the physical cannot discern the spiritual.  The problem one is going to have in that kind of argument is the fact that right now we are both physical and spiritual.  How could one separate the spiritual from the physical to allow for a test of just the physical capability?  There is only one way to see that, when a person has becomed hardened to the spirit, when they have become 100% carnally minded, when their heart is hardened and their eyes have been obscured.  In that setting, there is not much enlightenment for anything.

 

Possibly (and this is really speculation and pondering without having any real knowledge of this) those before the first man, which is a being with both body and spirit, there could have been beings that were just physical (in other words, did not possess a spirit of man) and the limitations of their senses are revealed. How far did those beings get in "seeing" God? 

 

These are untestable and unproven issues other than what we read about these things from the prophets or scriptures which is very limited.

 

If someone claims they have seen something spiritual and they actually have, I think most in the LDS culture would agree that they have seen it through "spiritual eyes" and not carnal eyes.  Even if it seems like it is through carnal eyes, like they say, "I know not whether I was in my own body or not" or something of that sort one could not separate out which aspect of that information was only discerned by the spirit vs the cerebral cortex only.   There is a special situation in which information is directly from spirit to spirit and most of the time that is mediated by the Holy Ghost, pretty much every other piece of information is received via the cerebral cortex and then spiritually discerned or not.

 

Does the spirit remember every dream our brain made up even if we don't remember having dreams in any given night?  I don't think everything the body experiences or learns is written in the soul.  I think it takes spiritual effort and aptitude to make that happen.

[Traveler]

If that is your question, I believe that the physical cannot discern the spiritual.  The problem one is going to have in that kind of argument is the fact that right now we are both physical and spiritual.  How could one separate the spiritual from the physical to allow for a test of just the physical capability?  There is only one way to see that, when a person has becomed hardened to the spirit, when they have become 100% carnally minded, when their heart is hardened and their eyes have been obscured.  In that setting, there is not much enlightenment for anything.

 

Possibly (and this is really speculation and pondering without having any real knowledge of this) those before the first man, which is a being with both body and spirit, there could have been beings that were just physical (in other words, did not possess a spirit of man) and the limitations of their senses are revealed. How far did those beings get in "seeing" God? 

 

These are untestable and unproven issues other than what we read about these things from the prophets or scriptures which is very limited.

 

If someone claims they have seen something spiritual and they actually have, I think most in the LDS culture would agree that they have seen it through "spiritual eyes" and not carnal eyes.  Even if it seems like it is through carnal eyes, like they say, "I know not whether I was in my own body or not" or something of that sort one could not separate out which aspect of that information was only discerned by the spirit vs the cerebral cortex only.   There is a special situation in which information is directly from spirit to spirit and most of the time that is mediated by the Holy Ghost, pretty much every other piece of information is received via the cerebral cortex and then spiritually discerned or not.

 

Does the spirit remember every dream our brain made up even if we don't remember having dreams in any given night?  I don't think everything the body experiences or learns is written in the soul.  I think it takes spiritual effort and aptitude to make that happen.

 

Part of my problem in this discussion is that I believe that man is capable of recognizing all truth - this is according to covenant that man would be guided in mortality with the spirit of Christ.  How we recognize spiritual things may be just as you have said - our spirit is integrated with our physical self and it is almost impossible to separate the two in how we learn and recognize truth.  In essence every truth has a spiritual foundation.

 

But there is another problem in our discussion - we really do not know what spiritual stuff is.  We could be seeing it and utilizing spiritual stuff all the time - not even knowing it is spiritual stuff.  Sometime things are hidden in full sight - the problem being that if we do not know what to look for; we will not see it.  Interestingly it has been scientifically proven that if a person's mind cannot make sense of what we are looking at our brain will simply remove that from the picture of our cognition.

 

I am inclined to believe that we do not sense spirit stuff because we are confused about what we are looking for.  You are convinced it is not something that can be learned or taught - I have tried to explore where you have obtained the knowledge concerning that for which you also say we cannot have knowledge.  To me your argument is contradictory and thus rhetorically flawed.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Part of my problem in this discussion is that I believe that man is capable of recognizing all truth - this is according to covenant that man would be guided in mortality with the spirit of Christ.  How we recognize spiritual things may be just as you have said - our spirit is integrated with our physical self and it is almost impossible to separate the two in how we learn and recognize truth.  In essence every truth has a spiritual foundation.

 

But there is another problem in our discussion - we really do not know what spiritual stuff is.  We could be seeing it and utilizing spiritual stuff all the time - not even knowing it is spiritual stuff.  Sometime things are hidden in full sight - the problem being that if we do not know what to look for; we will not see it.  Interestingly it has been scientifically proven that if a person's mind cannot make sense of what we are looking at our brain will simply remove that from the picture of our cognition.

 

I am inclined to believe that we do not sense spirit stuff because we are confused about what we are looking for.  You are convinced it is not something that can be learned or taught - I have tried to explore where you have obtained the knowledge concerning that for which you also say we cannot have knowledge.  To me your argument is contradictory and thus rhetorically flawed.

"Man" by definition is both body and spirit.  This is why it is important to use terms like "the human brain" or body to specify what you mean by saying "man".  To me, "man" is both spirit and body.  Sometimes in scriptures the word "man" is used to represent carnal man or "natural man" (used by Paul to distinguish that aspect of man) whereas the "heart of man" represents the spirit.   For example look at Paul's use of the word; 1 Corinthians; "9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

 

It is impossible for us to separate the two for the most part and that is why we cannot judge.  We do not have the ability to understand in any one person what they face in terms of that internal struggle, what they have been given in terms of talents and traits of the body vs what they bring with them from their own spiritual character.  Ones ability to separate the two depends on their spirituality and ability to spiritually discern.

 

You are wrong about the brain.  If the mind cannot make sense of what we see or learn it will make up a reasonable explanation for the event, a false story, and we take it as truth.  It does not simply ignore it.   This has been shown over and over again.  If someone witnesses a crime and they are not sure who did it but they realize there was someone with a hoodie or a goatee or tattoos then that person is more likely to be blammed for the crime even though it may not have been the person. It has also been shown that if a person tells a lie over and over again they start to believe it is true, even when they knew it was a lie originally. 

 

I am sure that our spirit self uses spiritual "stuff" all the time and it is all around our spirits and you are right we don't see it with natural eyes and yet our spirit still uses it, like when our spirit is touched by the Holy Ghost. 

 

Our inability to distinguish the two is why we sing songs like "I am a child of God", we have to be reminded of who we really are.  We are not this fallen body, "man" we are the sons an daughters of God, our spiritual self, which is very hard to see under the courseness of this body.  This mortal body and all of its features, unless adopted by the spirit of that person, will return to dust from where it came. We do not want to take up treasures of the earth (including things of the body as the body is of the earth) as they will turn to dust.  In other words, we do not take pride in our earthly talents but what the spirit learns from this experience.  We do not pride ourselves with things like whether a person is more learned or not - it may be  feature of the dusty body, or whether is a person is a star athelete or a talented instrument player or an attractive person - those may be features of the body alone.  We do treasure the growth by the spirit when dealing with these talents.

 

I like the verses in "O, God the Eternal Father"; "

3. When Jesus, the Anointed,

Descended from above

And gave himself a ransom

To win our souls with love–

With no apparent beauty,

That man should him desire–

He was the promised Savior,

To purify with fire.

4. How infinite that wisdom,

The plan of holiness,

That made salvation perfect

And veiled the Lord in flesh,

To walk upon his footstool

And be like man, almost,

In his exalted station,

And die, or all was lost."

 

One of the few instances where it suggests the body itself is the veil, almost hiding our true nature and even for Christ there was no apparent beauty, no outside beauty for man to be attracted to, it was all internal - spiritual.  It is important to try to separate body vs spirit for those reasons.

[skalenfehl]

So, I m sorry I have not posted back. With my struggles with cultural aspects I will give an example. There is an older woman in the ward. Twice a month I pick her up for church because no one else will. I am by myself when I pick her up because my wife attends ward council. I have no problem doing this. The bishop has no problem with me doing this. I have prayed about it and believe it is the right thing. Yet many people in the ward think I should not pick her up and some have gone as far as to say that I am transgressing by doing so.

 

They have no problem judging. And yet none of them have offered to pick up this sister in your place?