Cal Posted March 27, 2004 Report Share Posted March 27, 2004 We sometimes hear people claim to respect science. I have even heard some say that "God is a god of science", or that God operates according to the physical laws of the universe. I have also heard these same people bring a lively, and otherwise rational discussion, to a complete halt with the statement: WELL, GOD CAN DO ANYTHING. In context: Science has shown there could never have been a LITERAL WORLD flood of the NOAH type, Answer: GOD CAN DO ANYTHING. Battles (substitute many other BoM claims) the size of those described in the BoM would leave massive amounts of archaeological evidence. Answer: God removed the evidence to test our faith. After all, God can do anything. Adam was the first human. The fossil evidence for early man is extensive and convincing to the contrary. Answer: God planted those fossils to test our faith. Remember, God can do anything. My question for discussion (and you can take this anywhere you want): Irrespective of whether you ultimately believe in GOD, whatever that means to you, does God go around "fiddling" with the physical universe, or does he leave it alone to be what it is? For example: As per BoM Ether: What does it mean the "God blew wind out of his mouth?" When God does all this physically questionable stuff, does that give free reign to claim "See God can and DOES do ANYTHING"? Perhaps some of you can raise better questions along this line of thinking------please go for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starsky Posted March 27, 2004 Report Share Posted March 27, 2004 Okay...so what you want is God to be left out of the explaining of all things pertaining to man on earth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Posted March 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2004 Originally posted by Peace@Mar 27 2004, 12:35 PM Okay...so what you want is God to be left out of the explaining of all things pertaining to man on earth? Interesting inference you draw. Is that the only one you can draw? Are you sure there is no other way to look at it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFDaw Posted March 27, 2004 Report Share Posted March 27, 2004 What's to say God's will isn't the physical law of the universe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Posted March 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2004 Originally posted by AFDaw@Mar 27 2004, 12:53 PM What's to say God's will isn't the physical law of the universe? The problem is the God you and Peace seem to believe in violates his own set of physical rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFDaw Posted March 27, 2004 Report Share Posted March 27, 2004 How so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starsky Posted March 27, 2004 Report Share Posted March 27, 2004 Originally posted by Cal+Mar 27 2004, 12:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Mar 27 2004, 12:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--AFDaw@Mar 27 2004, 12:53 PM What's to say God's will isn't the physical law of the universe? The problem is the God you and Peace seem to believe in violates his own set of physical rules. God does not violate eternal principles....he does change applications to fulfill the end of the eternal principle.Even men do this...for instance...you have the scientific formula to make either hydrogen power or a hydrogen bomb...does the application of the science to make a bomb violate the science to make energy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inactivetx Posted March 27, 2004 Report Share Posted March 27, 2004 I think the 'God can do anything' retort has its place, but imho not for the cases you give. Luke 1: 37 37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.Yes, God can do anything, but, then you get into the philosophical arguments of can God put a square peg in a round hole, commit sin, etc.I believe God can do anything He puts his will to but also:Isa. 1: 18 18 Come now, and let us reason• together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.God created us with a mind and we are expected to use it. I think using the argument that 'God took evidence away to test our faith' is a very poor one. I think the lack of archeological evidence for the BoM stories are a valid observation and at the same time how do we account for the 40 years of wanderings of Moses after leaving Egypt? Sure, we can point to a map and suggest where they wander but can we use that map to prove that they were led by flame (if I recall correctly), ate mana from heaven and that their clothes never wore out? As for the world wide flood - I think a localized flood would have done the trick (in relation to worldwide-maybe a few countries), yet many world faiths including non-JudeaChristian, have flood stories. As for planting fossils - I follow age-day theory of creation in which each creation day could have been thousands, tens of thousands, even millions of years each - who knows, therefore dinosaurs could have existed long before man and procludes God 'planting' evidence to test our faith.I think there is a way to incorporate science and theology. While we are to follow God in faith, it is not a blind faith. In final answer to your question - I think God pretty much leaves us to our own devices (per our request - look at human history basically rejecting God's interference). But is available when we seek him Acts 17: 27 27 That they should seek the Lord, if• haply they might feel• after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of usYou raised some important issues - hope I contributed in some way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starsky Posted March 28, 2004 Report Share Posted March 28, 2004 In final answer to your question - I think God pretty much leaves us to our own devices (per our request - look at human history basically rejecting God's interference). But is available when we seek him Acts 17: 27 27 That they should seek the Lord, if• haply they might feel• after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of usYou raised some important issues - hope I contributed in some way. Good points inactivetx. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Posted March 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2004 Originally posted by AFDaw@Mar 27 2004, 12:57 PM How so? Simple---Peace seems to think that God pushes boats around in the ocean, or blows wind out of his mouth. Would you like to explain how that works? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFDaw Posted March 28, 2004 Report Share Posted March 28, 2004 Originally posted by Cal+Mar 27 2004, 09:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Mar 27 2004, 09:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--AFDaw@Mar 27 2004, 12:57 PM How so? Simple---Peace seems to think that God pushes boats around in the ocean, or blows wind out of his mouth. Would you like to explain how that works? How is that violating his own physical set of rules?My point was simply we don't know what his rules are so how can we say what abides by and doesn't abide by natural laws? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Posted March 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2004 Originally posted by Peace+Mar 27 2004, 01:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Mar 27 2004, 01:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by -Cal@Mar 27 2004, 12:55 PM <!--QuoteBegin--AFDaw@Mar 27 2004, 12:53 PM What's to say God's will isn't the physical law of the universe? The problem is the God you and Peace seem to believe in violates his own set of physical rules. God does not violate eternal principles....he does change applications to fulfill the end of the eternal principle.Even men do this...for instance...you have the scientific formula to make either hydrogen power or a hydrogen bomb...does the application of the science to make a bomb violate the science to make energy? No. But the scientific rules that govern both are pretty well understood and they don't contradict eachother. Would you like to explain in ANY terms that are in harmony with science, how, for example, God covered the entire earth with water 5 to 6 miles deeper than it is today, without leaving a trace of evidence of such, or how the Grand Canyon was carved out in 6000 years?All you can really say is "God can do anything", which totally begs the question since you are trying to carry on a rational discussion without adhering to the rules of logic, the same type of logic required in understanding the difference between hydrogen as an element in chemical reactions and hydrogen in nuclear reactions. IOW your reference to the difference between hydrogen in chemical reactions and nuclear reactions is a red herring. You have yet to show how God can violate the rules (governing things like chemical reactions and nuclear energy) he, himself, set up. You claim he does, but you show absolutely no evidence that he does so at all. All you do is CLAIM that he does. Where is your evidence that he does? What do you mean by "change applications"? Do you even know what you are talking about? Give me an example of this "changing applications" in the real world. What evidence do you have of this? And don't say, "the scriptures". The scriptures are not evidence of anything---they are the thing that is in QUESTION--you can't use them to prove their own validity! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Posted March 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2004 Originally posted by AFDaw@Mar 27 2004, 09:40 PM How so? Simple---Peace seems to think that God pushes boats around in the ocean, or blows wind out of his mouth. Would you like to explain how that works? How is that violating his own physical set of rules?My point was simply we don't know what his rules are so how can we say what abides by and doesn't abide by natural laws? Al contrere Piere--we definitely DO know what his rules are. Take a Physics class--we at least know them well enough to say that the Bible and BoM violate them at many turns.Obviously you don't understand Physics well enough to know how all of that would violate the Law of Physics (God did invent them didn't he? Or did Newton invent them? Did Newton create the universe---he was clearly the smartest guy to ever live, maybe he did!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setheus Posted March 28, 2004 Report Share Posted March 28, 2004 List of things God can NOT do.... 1. Can NOT tell a lie....if so would no longer be God 2. Can NOT hold a grudge....opposition in all things and mercy is required. 3. Can NOT create anything that is less than perfect....hence Jesus Christ created the physical earth under DIRECTION of the Father. Shall I continue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Posted March 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2004 Originally posted by inactivetx@Mar 27 2004, 01:05 PM I think the 'God can do anything' retort has its place, but imho not for the cases you give. Luke 1: 37 37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.Yes, God can do anything, but, then you get into the philosophical arguments of can God put a square peg in a round hole, commit sin, etc.I believe God can do anything He puts his will to but also:Isa. 1: 18 18 Come now, and let us reason• together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.God created us with a mind and we are expected to use it. I think using the argument that 'God took evidence away to test our faith' is a very poor one. I think the lack of archeological evidence for the BoM stories are a valid observation and at the same time how do we account for the 40 years of wanderings of Moses after leaving Egypt? Sure, we can point to a map and suggest where they wander but can we use that map to prove that they were led by flame (if I recall correctly), ate mana from heaven and that their clothes never wore out? As for the world wide flood - I think a localized flood would have done the trick (in relation to worldwide-maybe a few countries), yet many world faiths including non-JudeaChristian, have flood stories. As for planting fossils - I follow age-day theory of creation in which each creation day could have been thousands, tens of thousands, even millions of years each - who knows, therefore dinosaurs could have existed long before man and procludes God 'planting' evidence to test our faith.I think there is a way to incorporate science and theology. While we are to follow God in faith, it is not a blind faith. In final answer to your question - I think God pretty much leaves us to our own devices (per our request - look at human history basically rejecting God's interference). But is available when we seek him Acts 17: 27 27 That they should seek the Lord, if• haply they might feel• after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of usYou raised some important issues - hope I contributed in some way. Particularly, you said,"I believe God can do anything He puts his will to but also:"You mean he has to "put his will to it", he can't just sort of kind of want to do it? Does he make some kind of umph sound when he does that?Actually, you are just contradicting yourself--either he CAN and DOES, or he CAN'T and DOESN'T. It sounds like you are more confused than your God is. No offense intended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Posted March 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2004 Originally posted by Setheus@Mar 27 2004, 10:01 PM List of things God can NOT do....1. Can NOT tell a lie....if so would no longer be God2. Can NOT hold a grudge....opposition in all things and mercy is required.3. Can NOT create anything that is less than perfect....hence Jesus Christ created the physical earth under DIRECTION of the Father.Shall I continue? Gang, is it just me or is.................that is the funniest thing you have ever heard anyone say on this or any forum! Congratulations!!!!!!!!God can't create anything imperfect, so he sent JESUS TO DO IT! BTW---I think if you read the OT you will find every one of your limitations on God contradicted at one place or another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Posted March 28, 2004 Report Share Posted March 28, 2004 Originally posted by Cal@Mar 27 2004, 09:46 PM Would you like to explain in ANY terms that are in harmony with science, how, for example, God covered the entire earth with water 5 to 6 miles deeper than it is today, without leaving a trace of evidence of such, or how the Grand Canyon was carved out in 6000 years? Who says the earth was covered by water? The Bible? The question then is not whether or not God can do anything, but also is the Bible correct when it asserts the earth was covered in water.The part about 6000 years, however, is not part of the Bible. Who is asserting that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Behunin Posted March 28, 2004 Report Share Posted March 28, 2004 His ways are not our ways. This Physical world, while extremely important, is just a drop in the bucket when all of eternity is contemplated. I believe that everything is working as it should be, good AND evil. Indeed, God has DONE everything for our good. Now what we decide to do with it, thats a different story. Closed minds are not open to abundance. Open minds are ready to receive abundantly. Remember this: the self has free will to create pain from sin in the physical world and carry it to the spiritual world, thus creating hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tr2 Posted March 28, 2004 Report Share Posted March 28, 2004 This is a faith destroying argument because this will get people questioning God because they don't understand something. You either believe God's ways aren't your ways or you think his ways are wrong. There really isn't much else in between. I'm not so full of pride that I think God shouldn't do something I don't agree with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inactivetx Posted March 28, 2004 Report Share Posted March 28, 2004 Originally posted by Cal@Mar 27 2004, 11:11 PM Particularly, you said,"I believe God can do anything He puts his will to but also:"You mean he has to "put his will to it", he can't just sort of kind of want to do it? Does he make some kind of umph sound when he does that?Actually, you are just contradicting yourself--either he CAN and DOES, or he CAN'T and DOESN'T. It sounds like you are more confused than your God is. No offense intended. Didn't mean to confuse - my post was supposed to expose the folly of humans using the 'God can do anything' rationale to explain stuff when are other sound methods of responding to the issues. That God can do anything doesn't follow that he does everything.Hope that clarifies. B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starsky Posted March 28, 2004 Report Share Posted March 28, 2004 That God can do anything doesn't follow that he does everything.Exactly... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Posted March 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2004 Originally posted by Snow+Mar 28 2004, 12:00 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Mar 28 2004, 12:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Mar 27 2004, 09:46 PM Would you like to explain in ANY terms that are in harmony with science, how, for example, God covered the entire earth with water 5 to 6 miles deeper than it is today, without leaving a trace of evidence of such, or how the Grand Canyon was carved out in 6000 years? Who says the earth was covered by water? The Bible? The question then is not whether or not God can do anything, but also is the Bible correct when it asserts the earth was covered in water.The part about 6000 years, however, is not part of the Bible. Who is asserting that? Snow--the references to the "flood" and Grand Canyon are in relation to interpretations of the Bible I often hear in SS and from scriptural literalists who insist that the earth was "baptized" by being completely immersed in water, and that the earth is literally some few thousand years old. I realize that you and many other mormons (or christians for that matter) take the scriptures more symbolically, or that they are just wrong in these areas, but my posting was a "poke" at the literalists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Posted March 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2004 Originally posted by inactivetx+Mar 28 2004, 09:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (inactivetx @ Mar 28 2004, 09:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Mar 27 2004, 11:11 PM Particularly, you said,"I believe God can do anything He puts his will to but also:"You mean he has to "put his will to it", he can't just sort of kind of want to do it? Does he make some kind of umph sound when he does that?Actually, you are just contradicting yourself--either he CAN and DOES, or he CAN'T and DOESN'T. It sounds like you are more confused than your God is. No offense intended. Didn't mean to confuse - my post was supposed to expose the folly of humans using the 'God can do anything' rationale to explain stuff when are other sound methods of responding to the issues. That God can do anything doesn't follow that he does everything.Hope that clarifies. B) Point well taken and I agree with you!Of course, the next question is, what DOES he do? And what is the EVIDENCE that requires the assertion that God did it in some way that CAN'T be explained by the laws of physics, or even, does God do stuff that violates the laws of physics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Posted March 28, 2004 Report Share Posted March 28, 2004 Originally posted by Tr2@Mar 28 2004, 08:11 AM This is a faith destroying argument because this will get people questioning God because they don't understand something. You either believe God's ways aren't your ways or you think his ways are wrong. There really isn't much else in between. I'm not so full of pride that I think God shouldn't do something I don't agree with. Sorry, wrong point entirely.The point is not about questioning God, although Cal my have seperate questions about God. The question is whether God did and does all the things that are said about him - for example, things that the Bible says about him.Many people cannot figure out that there is the Bible and there is God - they aren't the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Posted March 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2004 Originally posted by Snow+Mar 28 2004, 10:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Mar 28 2004, 10:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Tr2@Mar 28 2004, 08:11 AM This is a faith destroying argument because this will get people questioning God because they don't understand something. You either believe God's ways aren't your ways or you think his ways are wrong. There really isn't much else in between. I'm not so full of pride that I think God shouldn't do something I don't agree with. Sorry, wrong point entirely.The point is not about questioning God, although Cal my have seperate questions about God. The question is whether God did and does all the things that are said about him - for example, things that the Bible says about him.Many people cannot figure out that there is the Bible and there is God - they aren't the same thing. Good point, Snow. I wonder how many people on this forum can make that distinction? I think I'll take a poll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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