Praying to know the Bible is scripture

[MrShorty]

I am reminded of another program by Pastor James McDonald on his Walk In the Word program. It was years ago, so I have not been able to find a podcast of it. This one was memorable to me because, along with describing a discernment process that was -- concept for concept -- exactly what is in Mor 10:3-5, the program included a segment where he stated that, if Christians had better discernment, there would be no Mormons, or JW's or any other "erroneous" sects. It was probably this "arrogance" that made it so memorable.

 

 

but I will never deny you, nor any other Christian a truly authentic witness when it comes to the Holy Spirit and Truth, even if it leads them to a Church that I don't understand.  That is why I'm here, on this forum, to better understand my brothers and sisters in Christ, to learn directly from those who are authentically living their faith, rather than go to anti-mormon sites.

 

I think in many ways, this is where I am at, too, as a Latter-Day Saint. I don't think I know why God would lead people down alternate paths, but it seems that He does. If we are careless, this leads to variations of universalism or moral relativism. Somehow, God knows each of us perfectly and knows where He wants to lead us. I don't think it would be right for me to try to follow someone else's path -- I need to follow the path God is leading me down -- which includes proclaiming my faith to others. I need to have faith that God will choose who should follow the same path that I am following and who He wants to stay in their path.

[BrntSeth]

There is nothing, Nothing, NOTHING, wrong with asking God for clarity, guidance, truth, and discernment.  Ever.  The problem that most people have with the LDS church when they do it is because from our end it seems that this is all you require.  If God gives you that burning bosom then that's it.  I've had several people tell me that there is "nothing you can say or bring up that would make me question my faith" because they have felt this sensation.  Solely relying on a feeling is where people may be misled, for as the bible tells us, our hearts are corrupt and cannot be trusted (Jer. 17:9).

Me, I have prayed and asked God whether or not the Bible is the word of God.  But I have also used my God-given brain and studied the dead sea scrolls, read about the hundreds of manuscripts that prove today's Bible contains the same content as the transcripts during Jesus' time.  I have looked at the geography spoken of in the Bible and compared it to todays maps, seen the literal evidence of prophecy, Biblical historical account, and His holy hand at work in our world.  I have pondered how Moses could know about anti-bacterial practices before modern medicine, how the Bible speaks of the world being round before Columbus, how the Bible knows that the stars are innumerable before astrology was invented, and many other scientific breakthroughs were even thought about.  I've looked at the data that seems to support a literal 6 day creation as spoken of in Genesis. 

 

Yes, I have prayed to know of it's truth, but I didn't stop there.  I have many friends who would not even listen to me talk about the bible until I could defend it with scientific evidence.  Sadly, I have not been able to have such conversations with Mormons because, as I have come to understand, the majority of their faith is based on a feeling, rather than evidence.

[estradling75]

There is nothing, Nothing, NOTHING, wrong with asking God for clarity, guidance, truth, and discernment.  Ever.  The problem that most people have with the LDS church when they do it is because from our end it seems that this is all you require.  If God gives you that burning bosom then that's it.  I've had several people tell me that there is "nothing you can say or bring up that would make me question my faith" because they have felt this sensation.  Solely relying on a feeling is where people may be misled, for as the bible tells us, our hearts are corrupt and cannot be trusted (Jer. 17:9).

Me, I have prayed and asked God whether or not the Bible is the word of God.  But I have also used my God-given brain and studied the dead sea scrolls, read about the hundreds of manuscripts that prove today's Bible contains the same content as the transcripts during Jesus' time.  I have looked at the geography spoken of in the Bible and compared it to todays maps, seen the literal evidence of prophecy, Biblical historical account, and His holy hand at work in our world.  I have pondered how Moses could know about anti-bacterial practices before modern medicine, how the Bible speaks of the world being round before Columbus, how the Bible knows that the stars are innumerable before astrology was invented, and many other scientific breakthroughs were even thought about.  I've looked at the data that seems to support a literal 6 day creation as spoken of in Genesis. 

 

Yes, I have prayed to know of it's truth, but I didn't stop there.  I have many friends who would not even listen to me talk about the bible until I could defend it with scientific evidence.  Sadly, I have not been able to have such conversations with Mormons because, as I have come to understand, the majority of their faith is based on a feeling, rather than evidence.

 

 

The problem of people stopping short is hardly unique to Mormonism.  When Mormons read the scriptures that talk about how to get a witness from God there is always element of both Faith and Study.

 

Evidence is good... but people tend to claim as evidence that which supports what they want to believe and discount evidence which challenges it.  I will assert that what ever evidence standard a person holds the Bible to  the Book of Mormon can also pass(once you adjust for the differences in in public knowledge of the books) .  And whatever standard of evidence a person might claim the Book of Mormon Fails the Bible also fails.

[faith4]

 

I think in many ways, this is where I am at, too, as a Latter-Day Saint. I don't think I know why God would lead people down alternate paths, but it seems that He does. If we are careless, this leads to variations of universalism or moral relativism. Somehow, God knows each of us perfectly and knows where He wants to lead us. I don't think it would be right for me to try to follow someone else's path -- I need to follow the path God is leading me down -- which includes proclaiming my faith to others. I need to have faith that God will choose who should follow the same path that I am following and who He wants to stay in their path.

 

I heartily agree w/you.  I have so many wonderful friends, of all different faiths, and I am always amazed at their stories, and how God has moved, and continues to move, in their lives.  I have so many awesome LDS friends and neighbors, I love them dearly, and part of what I love about them, is the ability to have reasonable theological discussions from which we all can grow from.  I firmly that God places us in situations through which we can grow and learn, and it is through the humility of recognizing the dignity of Christ in everyone, that we are more open to His love. 

 

For the LDS, if a family member converts to a Lutheran church, perhaps that person needed to meet someone in that church, and go through a different thought process in order to finally understand a LDS concept that they didn't before, which could lead them back to the LDS faith.  A cousin of mine converted to the LDS church and is on his mission right now in Chile.  He has so much zeal and love for God right now, I'm happy for him!  He didn't have that love before, his parents enver went to church or taught him faith, but now he does have faith, and I don't doubt his sincerity.  He needs this moment, this zeal for God,and the specific organization your church offers him, to grow towards God.  Rather than judge others or consider them deceived or confused b/c they belong to a different faith, I always remember that God brings good out of everything, and to keep my own eyes focused on the Prize, which is Jesus Himself. 

 

God bless!

[faith4]

Because you're making stuff up that I didn't say. You can pretend I said stuff I didn't all you want and take offense. Have at it. As you continue to do so, it's useless to continue this conversation.

 

Lol!  Not offended whatsoever!   

 

God bless!

[The Folk Prophet]

I think in many ways, this is where I am at, too, as a Latter-Day Saint. I don't think I know why God would lead people down alternate paths, but it seems that He does. If we are careless, this leads to variations of universalism or moral relativism. Somehow, God knows each of us perfectly and knows where He wants to lead us. I don't think it would be right for me to try to follow someone else's path -- I need to follow the path God is leading me down -- which includes proclaiming my faith to others. I need to have faith that God will choose who should follow the same path that I am following and who He wants to stay in their path.

 

God chooses our paths? How does that work with agency? I entirely disagree with the implication that God leads people down wrong paths. Just to be clear: Alternate paths = wrong paths if the paths are wrong. I also disagree with the concept that it seems he does. Seems why? Because people say so? That proves nothing. And that is the point. It doesn't matter how many people "say" they've received a witness. We don't believe the truth because of what other say. We believe the truth because of a personal witness from God. Everyone else in the world witnessing their version of the truth has no bearing without the Holy Spirit's validation in our lives. And it does not matter how many others claim the Holy Spirit has influenced them differently. That proves nothing to anyone.

 

The fact that there are some millions of Mormons claiming they have a witness of the truth doesn't prove the church true. Nor does it prove that the Holy Spirit has actually witnessed to them. Nor does myriads of other faiths claiming they have experience with the Holy Spirit prove that they actually have either.

 

People's spiritual claims concerning the Holy Ghost have no bearing.

 

What does have bearing is the Spirit's communication to our own souls. If someone believes the Spirit has told them point blank that the such-n-such church is true, it is their right to worship according to the dictates of their conscious. I don't deny them that. But it does NOT prove to me that they have, actually, had a spiritual witness any more than me telling them I have proves it to them. Only the Holy Spirit can prove itself.

[The Folk Prophet]

Lol!  Not offended whatsoever!   

 

God bless!

 

Then I'll rephrase:

 

Because you're making stuff up that I didn't say. You can pretend I said stuff I didn't all you want and call it arrogance. Have at it. As you continue to do so, it's useless to continue this conversation.

[The Folk Prophet]

The problem that most people have with the LDS church when they do it is because from our end it seems that this is all you require.

 

Right...so you're saying that if God spoke to you, making some truth known, and then scientific evidence showed that it was likely false, you'd deny what God told you?

 

Just trying to understand you here? You are asking me, in essence, to discount revelation in favor of the wisdom of man. Yes? Or rather, you have a problem with that. That's your prerogative, of course, but as for me, I'm going with what God tells me in spite of what any mortal evidence tells me.

 

Incidentally, I agree with estradling75. You have let your ideas of spiritual truth influence your study. Empirically, the Bible is a bunch of myths. No one relying on science can accept the ridiculous stories therein. Earth created in 7 days, only 6000 years or so old, talking animals, floods over the earth, swallowed by a whale, splitting the red sea, water to wine, walking on water, raised from the dead, etc., etc... Anyone denying that there is no scientific basis for accepting these things is letting their extreme bias show. Will you not allow us our biases based on our faith as well?

[MrShorty]

Confirmation bias is definitely a real thing, and I think it show up frequently in the way religious people interpret their experience. As personal as religious experience can be, it might be a necessary part of religious experience that cannot be completely eliminated from the equation.

 

 

God chooses our paths? How does that work with agency? I entirely disagree with the implication that God leads people down wrong paths. Just to be clear: Alternate paths = wrong paths if the paths are wrong. I also disagree with the concept that it seems he does. Seems why? Because people say so? That proves nothing. And that is the point. It doesn't matter how many people "say" they've received a witness. We don't believe the truth because of what other say. We believe the truth because of a personal witness from God. Everyone else in the world witnessing their version of the truth has no bearing without the Holy Spirit's validation in our lives. And it does not matter how many others claim the Holy Spirit has influenced them differently. That proves nothing to anyone.

 

The fact that there are some millions of Mormons claiming they have a witness of the truth doesn't prove the church true. Nor does it prove that the Holy Spirit has actually witnessed to them. Nor does myriads of other faiths claiming they have experience with the Holy Spirit prove that they actually have either.

 

People's spiritual claims concerning the Holy Ghost have no bearing.

 

What does have bearing is the Spirit's communication to our own souls. If someone believes the Spirit has told them point blank that the such-n-such church is true, it is their right to worship according to the dictates of their conscious. I don't deny them that. But it does NOT prove to me that they have, actually, had a spiritual witness any more than me telling them I have proves it to them. Only the Holy Spirit can prove itself.

 

I don't think God choosing our paths violates our free agency. He always lets us choose whether we will follow Him or choose to follow our own paths. Based on several scriptures, I think much of the "test" of this life is determining whether or not we will follow God wherever He chooses to lead us.

 

In many ways, I think I can agree that other people's spiritual experiences have no bearing on the validity of my own experiences and my experiences have not bearing on other's. Other's can claim I have been misled by a false spirit, but they cannot really prove it to me. I can claim that others have been misled by false spirits, but they are under no obligation to heed what I say. In principle, then, that seems true to me. But it also seems to lead me back to the same conclusion. If the only thing I really have is my own spiritual experiences suggesting to me the path God wants me to follow, then all I can really do is follow that path until He chooses to correct my errors. and that is all that anyone of us can really do.

[The Folk Prophet]

Confirmation bias is definitely a real thing, and I think it show up frequently in the way religious people interpret their experience. As personal as religious experience can be, it might be a necessary part of religious experience that cannot be completely eliminated from the equation.

 

 

 

I don't think God choosing our paths violates our free agency. He always lets us choose whether we will follow Him or choose to follow our own paths. Based on several scriptures, I think much of the "test" of this life is determining whether or not we will follow God wherever He chooses to lead us.

 

In many ways, I think I can agree that other people's spiritual experiences have no bearing on the validity of my own experiences and my experiences have not bearing on other's. Other's can claim I have been misled by a false spirit, but they cannot really prove it to me. I can claim that others have been misled by false spirits, but they are under no obligation to heed what I say. In principle, then, that seems true to me. But it also seems to lead me back to the same conclusion. If the only thing I really have is my own spiritual experiences suggesting to me the path God wants me to follow, then all I can really do is follow that path until He chooses to correct my errors. and that is all that anyone of us can really do.

 

I cannot help but think that there's something more to it though. Someday, when we stand at judgment day, we will be accountable for ourselves. Yes, there are those who won't have the opportunity to be accountable for themselves in this life. But ultimately we will all stand as agents for our own choices and our own willingness to be humble and submit. But, overall, I agree.

[faith4]

Then I'll rephrase:

 

Because you're making stuff up that I didn't say. You can pretend I said stuff I didn't all you want and call it arrogance. Have at it. As you continue to do so, it's useless to continue this conversation.

 

:)  Then why did you continue?  I haven't made up anything more than you have made up by your "reasoning" with another poster.  All quotes I gave are direclty from you in this very thread (Posts #12, 14 & 20).  As with any forum, or online discussion, I cannot see you and you cannot see me, all we can do is read what's in front of us and take it as it is.  As a non-LDS member, I was honestly letting you know how you came across.  Now, apparently, you seem to be the one offended and "having at it", and if that is so, then I will apologize for any misunderstanding on my part :)  My joy is in knowing that God is, and always will be, our witness. 

 

Now, I truly hope you have a wonderful and blessed day!!     

[The Folk Prophet]

:)  Then why did you continue?  I haven't made up anything more than you have made up by your "reasoning" with another poster.  All quotes I gave are direclty from you in this very thread (Posts #12, 14 & 20).  As with any forum, or online discussion, I cannot see you and you cannot see me, all we can do is read what's in front of us and take it as it is.  As a non-LDS member, I was honestly letting you know how you came across.  Now, apparently, you seem to be the one offended and "having at it", and if that is so, then I will apologize for any misunderstanding on my part :)  My joy is in knowing that God is, and always will be, our witness. 

 

Now, I truly hope you have a wonderful and blessed day!!     

 

Discontinuing a conversation with you means I can't keep conversing with others...?  O....k.....

[MrShorty]

I cannot help but think that there's something more to it though. Someday, when we stand at judgment day, we will be accountable for ourselves. Yes, there are those who won't have the opportunity to be accountable for themselves in this life. But ultimately we will all stand as agents for our own choices and our own willingness to be humble and submit. But, overall, I agree.

I think this accountability is important. It might be the key that keeps this line of reasoning from becoming a form of universalism or moral relativism. It hopefully keeps us aware of the need to cross-check spiritual impressions against scripture and against (fallible) reason. Keeps us humble enough to continue to grow and change rather than get stuck in one place.

[faith4]

Discontinuing a conversation with you means I can't keep conversing with others...?  O....k.....

 

Lol!!  Of course not :)  I meant, why did you bring it up again, lol :)  I am always interested in reading your posts, for the most part I find your posts very balanced, informative and amusing, just not so much this time  

[The Folk Prophet]

Lol!!  Of course not :)  I meant, why did you bring it up again, lol :)  I am always interested in reading your posts, for the most part I find your posts very balanced, informative and amusing, just not so much this time

 

You seem to misunderstand. I will not continue to debate whether I was arrogant in what I said or not. That does not mean I will not restate something else you misunderstood.

[faith4]

You seem to misunderstand. I will not continue to debate whether I was arrogant in what I said or not. That does not mean I will not restate something else you misunderstood.

 

I'm not looking to debate you, I already apologized for my misunderstanding, how your posts came across to me, as a non-LDS forum member.  And I certaintly don't expect you to stop replying to this thread, or to suddenly change your opinion on the matter.  But I too have a POV from the "other side of the aisle", which, clashes a bit w/your opinion on this matter.  MrShorty brings up a very good question, and in the end, we really don't know what other people experience throughout their life and how it shapes their faith.  For myself, considering anyone deceived or confused, is to judge them when we truly can't see in their hearts and minds, only God can do that.  I always give the benefit of the doubt, and just pray for all those whom I love and care for, that God will continue to draw them, and me, to Himself, and that we are all humble enough to follow whichever path He guides us on. 

 

I always imagine all of humanity like a giant blanket, being lovingly weaved by the Hand of God, each thread a human life.  We have to trust that God knows what the final picture is meant to look like and not resist where he places the needle as he weaves our lives in and around one another, even if we don't understand why He's placed us where He does, it's for a purpose.  *Shrug*  Maybe not a very good example, but it helps me to continually love everyone He places in my path, including you   I can't wait to see the final picture in all it's glory!