Holly3278 Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 How does one reconcile Matthew 16:18 with the Great Apostasy? Matthew 16:18 KJV And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonKairos Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 What are your initial thoughts, PG02? How do you think they can be reconciled? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr T Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 No surprise but I do not think "the great apostasy" was possible. Satan cannot take over God's kingdom (no matter how short). God is more powerful and will not allow his church to be completely lost by an apostasy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonKairos Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 Was that an answer to her question? I don't recall her asking if the great apostasy was possible. Her question assumes there was a great apostasy, and asks how this can be reconciled with the scripture in question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr T Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 You are right CK thus the false dilemma. We had to go back and correct the error and that is why I posted as I did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonKairos Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 What error? There was a great apostasy of the New Testament Church of Christ. Her question is valid. There is no discrepancy between the scripture she cited and the great apostasy happening. She was seeking an understanding of how to harmonize the two, not an opinion on whether there was an apostasy or not. Just trying to help keep the thread on track so she can get an answer to her question from those who believe there was an apostasy. What say you, fellow LDS? How do you harmonize the two? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr T Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 Harmonize away to your hearts content. I was giving my understanding of that concept so she could hear a sound biblical perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonKairos Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 The LDS perspective is sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musashi Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 It was lost and it wasn't lost. All those who believed and had authority died EXCEPT John - he's still alive today I just started a post on the very topic. He's body has been changed so it doesn't die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonKairos Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 Translated body. Exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musashi Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 Exactly. "Translated" God changed his body so it won't die. God can do anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saab900man Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 How does one reconcile Matthew 16:18 with the Great Apostasy?Matthew 16:18 KJV And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.I read this verse like a converstationLike if I said " I am talking to you Peter on this Priesthood I will run my church and Satan has no power over it " ** the words above are mine not the scriptures and my opinion only**In the next verse he received the Priesthood keys of sealingThe verses never say there will not be a time without the Priesthood on the earth only that this is the authority on which the church is governed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonKairos Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 The problem with using this scripture to disprove the apostasy of the New Testament Church of Christ is this:You can't say the apostasy equals the gates of hell prevailing against Christ's church. The only way you can say that is if right after the apostasy was fully completed, Christ's Second Coming occurred and the church was never "restored." Even that would be a hollow victory for Satan since during the Millenium Christ will reign spiritually and secularly...perfect theocracy.However, the world didn't end after the last of the apostles was martyred and at the point in time (who knows when) when the great apostasy was complete. God's hands were not and are not tied, and as long as this planet continues to dance with the sun, we're still in Act Two of God's divine drama and as everyone knows, the end of the story takes place in Act Three.The fact that Christ has restored his Church to the earth today is proof that the gates of hell have not prevailed against it.Unless you literally take the scripture to mean Peter was the rock on which Christ was going to build the Church...which brings up problems since Peter was murdered at Rome and in a sense the gates of hell did "prevail against him." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musashi Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 Why do think the scriptures have to be so cryptic??? Jesus should just say "Peter I'm gonna build my church around you, so in essence you're gonna be like a rock." Then he should give Peter a chance to ask any questions about that. THEN he should say "The gates of hell will prevail against it but not for long, not for long in Kolob time, not even two days. Then after that the church will come back to full strength and then the devil can't prevail against it." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr T Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 God can do anything. I don't think so. God can do all things possibly done though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr T Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 What, that God can't do anything? There are a number of things God cannot do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenRaines Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 My two cents worth.13 ¶ When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, aElias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 He saith unto them, But whom say aye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the aChrist, the b<a href="http://"http://scriptures.lds.org/en/matt/16/16b"" target="_blank">Son of the c<a href=\"http://scriptures.lds.org/en/matt/16/16c\" target=\"_blank\">living</a> God. </a> 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon aBar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not b<a href="http://"http://scriptures.lds.org/en/matt/16/17b"" target="_blank">revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. </a> 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this arock I will build my b<a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/matt/16/18b" target="_blank">church; and the gates of chell shall not dprevail against it.I have always done poorly with english in school so I am sure that there are those who understand the grammar much better than I. When reading more than one verse this is the understanding that I get.After Christ has asked Peter who men say he is he ask Peter who he says he is. Simon Peter says he is Christ, Son of the living God. Christ then confirms that he knows that based on revelation, it was revealed to Peter. The next verse confirms that Christ's church will be one based on revelation.That is how I understand it and interpret it.Ben Raines Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr T Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 Revelation is most likely what was being referred to. Revelation of Christ being the Christ-it's all about Jesus not Peter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 One answer I have heard involved the only location where the gates of hell might prevail. That location would be death. It is thought to be a promise that the church would be resurrected. I have thought as long as some part of the insitutional church survived even in death hat would agree with Matthew 16:18. The scriptures used to establish a total apostasy is read by Evangelicals as referring to a partial apostasy. The question becomes in that scenario would be which part left over would be the orthodox church? Grace alone as Martin Luther understood it was rejected by many post-Apostolic early Christians. The church father's atleast some of them regarded John 3:5 as a reference to the necessity of water baptism. Obedience being essential to salvation in addition to the gift of grace was earlier orthodoxy. Evangelicals take the view that it refers to the water of the womb at our natural birth. Being born of the spirit is necessary to them not water baptism as a salvation requirement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr T Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 Those are nonessential Dale. Jesus and him crucified not baptism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonKairos Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 Let's look at the Greek root words. I just did, and a new meaning has unfolded which I feel rather foolish for having overlooked for 25 years.The gates of hell won't prevail. What does that mean? When we hear the word hell, we think of the abode of satan, of satan himself, of torture or divine punishment, or the symbol of evil.The word translated as "gates" is the Greek word pyle. Straightforward enough. An entrance.The word translated as "hell" is the Greek word hades. Note that this word refers to god of the underworld (Hades or Pluto), the netherworld itself (Orcus, the receptacle of disembodied spirits, deep in the earth), the grave, and death.The word translated as "prevail" is the Greek word katischyo. This refers to being strong to another's detriment, to overpowering someone or something.So let's re-read Matt. 16:18-19:And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.When Christ tells Peter that the gates of hell will not prevail against his church, what does he mean? Well if we go by the Greek words' original meanings, it would seem Christ is telling Peter something like this:The gates of hades--death itself--will not be stronger than my Church or the keys of power I'm giving to you.Makes sense in two main ways.1.) Christ was victor over the grave; his resurrection literally prevailed against (or overpowered) the gates of hell/hades (see John 12:17; 1 Corinthians 15:55).2.) Christ promises Peter that once he's recieved the keys of the kingdom of heaven, whatever he binds or looses will be bound or loosed in heaven too. In other words, these keys of power don't just have effect in this world, but beyond the grave and into the next life too. Not even the gates of death, not even the grave, will be mightier than the keys Peter is to receive. Their power to affect mankind by binding or loosing persists not just until death, but beyond also, in direct defiance of the supposed finality of death.So in retrospect, I don't think Christ is talking about what will happen to his Church at all. I think he's talking about the fact that both his resurrection and the keys of the kingdom will overpower death, and not the other way around. Death does not exceed the power of resurrection and priesthood keys. Christ is the victor, as are they who follow him.Note: If the scripture is saying that the gates of hell won't prevail against revelation, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the apostasy. God continues to reveal His will and mind to modern prophets. The LDS belief in continuing revelation to living apostles and prophets merely confirms the Savior's claim in Matthew 16. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-train Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 SATAN DID NOT DESTROY THE PRIMITIVE CHURCH. THE GATES OF HELL DID NOT SWALLOW THE PRIMITIVE CHURCH. 'The Great Apostasy' doctrine does not include that the Primitive Church was 'destroyed' by Satan or that the Church passed through the gates of hell, hades, sheol, or Tallahassee. This is the real reason why that doctrine and Matthew 16:18 do NOT conflict. Have a nice day. GOD BLESS -a-train Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr T Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 Looks like a good reading to me CK :) Again, "It's all about Christ" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-train Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 Hey, what are the Gates of Hell anyway? Could it be anything other than the grave or death?-a-train Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonKairos Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 Every time I've heard anyone talk about this scripture, they assume "the gates of hell" means "satan's power" or simply "satan" himself. The clear connection to death via the word "hades" is lost when it is rendered "hell," since hell connotes punishment and suffering and satan, not just death. "Hades" is the original word, and it clearly refers to death...not eternal punishment, not a geographic location where satan hangs out...just death and the grave. This is what I had overlooked for 25 years. Again, I'm rather embarassed to have never looked up the Greek until now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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