Baltimore riots

[bytor2112]

Personal responsibility is the missing factor in Baltimore and other cities where overreation and lack of self control prevail. The State is a democratic stronghold as is Baltimore itself. I believe the majority of the police as well as the governing class in Baltimore is black and democrat as well.

 

Maybe....just maybe...they should exercise a little bit of forethought before they vote if they really wanted change.

 

The vast majority of those people are not protesting anything. They are just engaging in mob mentality and if they find life where they live to be distaseful or they are not prospering, here is a suggestion....move. Correct what is holding you back from fulfilling your potential....however limited or limitless that may be.

Edited April 29, 2015 by bytor2112

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Have they tried peacefully protesting for days?

I don't understand your question. Did we post at the same time or something?

YES! As it says in the article I posted, and the line I quoted...they had peaceful protests for 6 days atraight. The media just didn't cover that minor detail. There have been protests going on sine Mike Brown, but the media doesn't care to report it if there isn't violence and rioting involved.

[unixknight]

Personal responsibility is the missing factor in Baltimore and other cities where overreation and lack of self control prevail. The State is a democratic stronghold as is Baltimore itself. I believe the majority of the police as well as the governing class in Baltimore is black and democrat as well.

 

Maybe....just maybe...they should exercise a little bit of forethought before they vote if they really wanted change.

 

The vast majority of those people are not protesting anything. They are just engaging in mob mentality and if they find life where they live to be distaseful or they are not prospering, here is a suggestion....move. Correct what is holding you back from fulfilling your potential....however limited or limitless that may be.

 

Wow... Brother... that post, man...

 

For starters, you do a grave disservice to the people of Baltimore with these comments.  You talk about personal responsibility being lacking, which tells me you haven't heard the story of the people who went out on the morning after the riots and started cleaning up the streets, taking responsibility for the condition of their neighborhood after the looters had their little party.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/28/baltimore-community-cleanup_n_7162666.html

 

I also think it's unfair to just dismiss it as overreaction and on that basis, ignore them.  As LP's link pointed out, the peaceful protests had been going on for days with -zero- national attention.  If you can't imagine why that's frustrating then I don't know what will help.

 

And to say the vast majority aren't protesting anything... That's flat wrong.  The vast majority WERE peacefully protesting (and continue to do so) but all the media is showing you is the violence.  If the reasons for THAT aren't obvious... then again, I don't know what would help.

 

And just "move" is a cute suggestion but people who have no money can't just decide to move out of West Baltimore and head out to the 'burbs and into a nice $350,000 house with a white picket fence, a minivan and a German shepherd.

 

I DO agree that to an extent they brought some of this on themselves by religiously voting Democrat when the Democrat party has demonstrated breathtaking apathy toward the problems in the inner city, but why should they vote Republican when the best advice they normally hear from the right is "Well why don't you just move somewhere else?"  At least the Dems pretend to care.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

The vast majority of those people are not protesting anything. They are just engaging in mob mentality and if they find life where they live to be distaseful or they are not prospering, here is a suggestion....move. Correct what is holding you back from fulfilling your potential....however limited or limitless that may be.

I couldn't disagree more. DI'd you read my post above about all the black people who have died needlessly at the hands of corrupt or incompetent police officers?

Have you talked to any groups of Black people about this issues? Or even better...listened to them? I have. I'm white so I won't pretend I fully understand, but I talk to Black acrisises regularly on FB and I listen. They are protesting for the reasons they have stated, and that I have tried to explain in this thread.

Just move? That's your solution? It's not that easy to uproot your family, move away from extended family...find a new job....I have a better solution...how about we get rid of the rogue cops that are murdering Black people...and give a raise to our good police officers?

[bytor2112]

Unix...of course stealing and destroying property is overreaction. If we can't agree that lawless behavior is wrong and an over reaction, where have we come to as a society? People relocate all the time and while it may not be the easiest it may lead to a better quality of life. 

 

LP...seriously...on Facebook? I actually live in a region of the country where blacks live in very large numbers. I see you are from Arizona and live in Washington, not exactly Mecca's for black folks.

 

Moving is an excellent solution and while difficult, certainly not impossible. My heavens, our country was founded and grew because of people willing to risk it all by relocating. 

 

Hands up dont shoot didn't happen and no one knows what happened here yet. But, go ahead and call it murder as that fits the narrative by the media. Too bad they aren't more concerned about the rampant black on black crime and drug peddaling that wrecks most inner cities.

 

I have no sympathy for people that refuse to help themselves. As for peaceful protest...what a crock. Stay in doors and let the justice system work. Taking to the streets in "peaceful" protest seems to always end with destruction and violence.

 

I feel for the cops, they have to deal with stuff most can't imagine. If it were me, I would go home and let them burn it down.

 

The problem is not the cops, it's the behavior or lack thereof. Believing that black people have the right to act out in this manner or should be treated differently is the ultimate in racism. Talk about the soft bigotry of low expectations....

 

And maybe....there is more to the story.

Edited April 30, 2015 by bytor2112

[unixknight]

Unix...of course stealing and destroying property is overreaction. If we can't agree that lawless behavior is wrong and an over reaction, where have we come to as a society?

 

I think we've all repeatedly said we agree on the point that lawlessness isn't the answer.  I assure you, the horse is dead. 

 

How wonderful the world would be if things were that simple though, wouldn't it?  One doesn't have to agree with the behavior of rioters to be able to recognize that there's a very serious problem that's getting ignored by those who prefer to just blame the rioters and ignore everything that led up to this.

Edited April 30, 2015 by unixknight

[bytor2112]

I think we've all repeatedly said we agree on the point that lawlessness isn't the answer.  I assure you, the horse is dead. 

 

How wonderful the world would be if things were that simple though, wouldn't it?  One doesn't have to agree with the behavior of rioters to be able to recognize that there's a very serious problem that's getting ignored by those who prefer to just blame the rioters and ignore everything that led up to this.

 

Exactly my point. The problem is the breakdown of the family, and lack of personal responsibility. No one wants to talk about that........

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Wow... Brother... that post, man...

 

For starters, you do a grave disservice to the people of Baltimore with these comments.  You talk about personal responsibility being lacking, which tells me you haven't heard the story of the people who went out on the morning after the riots and started cleaning up the streets, taking responsibility for the condition of their neighborhood after the looters had their little party.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/28/baltimore-community-cleanup_n_7162666.html

 

I also think it's unfair to just dismiss it as overreaction and on that basis, ignore them.  As LP's link pointed out, the peaceful protests had been going on for days with -zero- national attention.  If you can't imagine why that's frustrating then I don't know what will help.

 

And to say the vast majority aren't protesting anything... That's flat wrong.  The vast majority WERE peacefully protesting (and continue to do so) but all the media is showing you is the violence.  If the reasons for THAT aren't obvious... then again, I don't know what would help.

 

And just "move" is a cute suggestion but people who have no money can't just decide to move out of West Baltimore and head out to the 'burbs and into a nice $350,000 house with a white picket fence, a minivan and a German shepherd.

 

I DO agree that to an extent they brought some of this on themselves by religiously voting Democrat when the Democrat party has demonstrated breathtaking apathy toward the problems in the inner city, but why should they vote Republican when the best advice they normally hear from the right is "Well why don't you just move somewhere else?"  At least the Dems pretend to care.

 

I love this whole post.  You are so much more patient than I am Unixknight.  Seriously great post.  I particularly love the last line.  

[unixknight]

Exactly my point. The problem is the breakdown of the family, and lack of personal responsibility. No one wants to talk about that........

 

Brother, it isn't that we don't want to talk about it.  The problem is that it feels like every time someone tries to talk about something else, we get accused of being cop haters or liberals and summarily dismissed.  (You haven't done that, and I do appreciate it.  My impression of several senior members has suffered because I see them doing it.)

 

I mean seriously, what else is there to say about rioters?  Yep, rioting is bad.  Stealing's a no-no.  You shouldn't burn police cars.  Ayup.  We've all agreed on this.  The people who are lighting fires and throwing rocks at cops have no personal responsibility and should be locked  up.  Yes, we get it.  We agree.  Nobody's saying riots are justified or that looters are entitled to steal whatever they can grab.  I'm just not sure where else there is to go on that point, especially because I personally regard it as a distraction.

 

I feel like people want to keep focused like a laser on that topic because they have some kind of aversion to acknowledging that, at least in some places (such as Baltimore), policing is BROKEN.  There are severe tensions between the police department and the community and nobody wants to hear anything hat doesn't put cops on a pedestal and put every scrap of blame on the community.  People from other countries, even ones where the people don't have a 4th or 5th Amendment look at the police in the United States and say "Man, you guys' cops are out of control."  

 

Brother, that' a PROBLEM, and that problem isn't going to go away by trying to force the conversation to stay focused on the stuff we all already know... Rioting is bad, mmmkay?

 

Will you concede that the Baltimore Police Department has mishandled this incident?  Will you concede that Freddie Gray probably died due to excessive force on the part of the arresting officers?*

 

(*I say probably because, to be fair, the investigation isn't over and we don't have all the facts yet.)

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

LP...seriously...on Facebook? I actually live in a region of the country where blacks live in very large numbers. I see you are from Arizona and live in Washington, not exactly Mecca's for black folks.

 

Have you been to Washington lately?  There are plenty of Black people here.  Living in the region means nothing unless you actually sit down and LISTEN to what they have to say, which based on what you have posted here--you haven't done.  I grew up next to a Navajo Reservation.  I'm sorry to say I didn't learn anything about the Navajo's while living there.  I learned more from Tony HIllerman's novels than I did living next to them, because when I was in Arizona, I stayed in my own little white bubble.   So yes, Facebook.  It's a great place to find like minded people and talk and listen.  I've learned a lot from my new friends there...many who do live in the South.

 

Moving is an excellent solution and while difficult, certainly not impossible. My heavens, our country was founded and grew because of people willing to risk it all by relocating. 

 

 

Have you heard of the Great Migration?  Six million Black people fled the South over six decades...what they found was a different kind of prejudice in the North.  Simply moving is not the answer.  I don't think this will interest you, but perhaps someone else reading this thread will be interested.  There is a wonderful book about the Great Migration called The Warmth of Other Suns by Isabel Wilkerson.  It tells the stories of those who tried to find the easy solution you are suggesting...only it wasn't that is, and it didn't magically erase all their problems.

 

 

Hands up dont shoot didn't happen and no one knows what happened here yet. But, go ahead and call it murder as that fits the narrative by the media. Too bad they aren't more concerned about the rampant black on black crime and drug peddaling that wrecks most inner cities.

 

 

The difference is when on black man kills another, a black man goes to prison.  When a Police officer kills a Black man, it's just another day in America.

 

I have no sympathy for people that refuse to help themselves. As for peaceful protest...what a crock. Stay in doors and let the justice system work. Taking to the streets in "peaceful" protest seems to always end with destruction and violence.

 

 

Stay in their homes while their family and friends are murdered?  Is that honestly what you would do?  If you child is bullied in school, would you tell him to move or stay home?

 

The justice system is NOT working for them, that's the whole point!

 

 

I feel for the cops, they have to deal with stuff most can't imagine. 

 

 

I actually agree with you on this.  I think is the reason some of them turn violent...PTSD is a powerful thing.

 

 

And maybe....there is more to the story.

 

Have you seen the video about Freddie Gray?  Do you seriously think there is ANYTHING he could have done to nearly sever his own spinal cord?  Some inmate wants his 15 minutes in the spotlight.  I can't believe any media outlet would post such a ridiculous story.  What's next...posting fairy tales?  

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

This is a really good article for those who are interested:

 

What's Happening in Baltimore Didn't Just Start With Freddie Gray

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/28/freddie-gray-baltimore-history_n_7161962.html?ir=Black+Voices&ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000047

Edited April 30, 2015 by LiterateParakeet

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

This is a really powerful piece:

 

Why Baltimore is Burning

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kevin-powell/why-baltimore-is-burning_b_7161432.html?utm_hp_ref=tw&ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063

[Guest]

I'm just tired of talking to my black friends and being told... "you're not black, you don't understand a thing. shut up."

Okay. I'll shut up. Good luck.

[unixknight]

I'm just tired of talking to my black friends and being told... "you're not black, you don't understand a thing. shut up."

 

Yeah that's super annoying.  I think on some level it's true that we need to have walked a mile in each others' moccasins, at the same time I think it's possible, with a little open communication, to help someone understand even if they can't take that walk.

 

So I just read LP's links and I largely agree with them, but the second one, not entirely.

 

I don't think the complacency of people outside the slums is necessarily due to racism.  I think it is sometimes, but there are plenty of people who have no racism in their heart who still say things like "They ought to just take some personal responsibility and/or move."  A person doesn't have to be a racist to say that.

 

Instead, I think the problem is complacency in general.  As Conservatives, we believe in self reliance and personal responsibility, and we have great faith in our point of view.  I'm a huge believer in the idea that we all make our own destiny.  

 

The problem is that when we have such great faith in that principle, we tend to think that everybody can just get on top of their situation, all of the time.  We kinda need to believe that, because otherwise our sense of personal empowerment becomes threatened.  If some inner city family from West Baltimore can't get out and is stuck in the slums, then that could also have happened to us, and that thought is scary.

 

It's scary to me.  I like to believe... I NEED to believe that as long as I keep doing my best, taking responsibility and working hard, I'll never end up like the people in those slums.  And maybe, as far as my faith in Heavenly Father and His designs remains strong, that won't happen or, if it does happen, things will be ok.  And that's good... but not everybody puts their faith in God.

 

And maybe that's the real problem... maybe there isn't enough of God's presence in the culture of ghetto life... Maybe if more people in that part of town went to church and got closer to God then they'd be able to seize their destiny as a community and make things better... maybe.

 

But when we, as believers, are charged with spreading the Gospel and showing compassion to our brothers and sisters, are we supposed to only show compassion for people who live up to our expectations of how to live?  Are we supposed to only care about the suffering of the people who we, personally, judge to be worthy of it because they've met our standards for trying hard enough to get out of their situation?  Are we released from any obligation toward those who we, in our human wisdom, have determined aren't trying hard enough?

Edited April 30, 2015 by unixknight

[Just_A_Guy]

JAG, most of the time I agree with you and enjoy your posts. I hate to be on the opposite side this time...but here we are.

You mention the boy who cried wolf...are you familiar with the Walter Scott case?

No, and I'm not familiar with the other cases you mention, either. I don't think the majority of Americans are, either. Which begs the question: why did Martin and Brown, who were legitimate bad guys, got all the public sympathy. My point stands--John Q. American sees these brouhahas and naturally (though wrongly) concludes "if this is the best you can do, I guess there isn't such a problem with white-on-black racism after all"; thus poisoning the well when these bona fide incidents crop up.

David, I try not to be sarcastic or snarky, but you are seriously tempting me.

I'll leave it at this: do you have any facts to support your OPINION, which I strongly disagree with.

I wouldn't presume to state WHICH ethnic group in the U.S. tends to be the most racist; but I think it's telling that the term "racism" is now being re-defined in academia to include an element that one can only be "racist" if one comes from a historically powerful/privileged group--meaning that (black) Mayor Ray Nagin is free to proclaim New Orleans a "chocolate city", and that we tend to assume at the beginning that black-on-white violence has no racial component but that white-on-black violence does. And of course, with the Michael Brown case--don't forget those black "witnesses" who were so eager to see (white) Officer Wilson go down for murder, that they invented the forensically-disproved fairy tale about Brown being shot on his knees execution-style with his hands up.

Contra our Dear Leader's threats about the need for a "national conversation" about race after an incident of police brutality against a black man in a city where the mayor, police commissioner, and 9/15 of the city council are also black--racism is not a uniquely white problem. It is rampant in this country, across ethnic lines.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[bytor2112]

LP....your post is hyperbole. Another day in America...really? Your posts sound like the brown shirts are dragging jews into the streets and executing them. Media sensationalism....

 

And no...never been to Washington. But, I can assure you I have a much geater understanding of the black issues than u do with your in depth conversations on facebook. Most people from the West have no clue....

 

Funny how black folks and white folks etc seem to avoid "another day in America" by simply not breaking the law. Perhaps, certain groups of people should begin to understand that simple tactic.

 

Stop making excuses for them or anyone else that behaves this way. That attitude of poor me is destructive and leads to the baloney we see on TV and is just bigotry.

 

You say the justice system isn't working for them, I say it is working overtime because of them.

Edited April 30, 2015 by bytor2112

[bytor2112]

At least the Dems pretend to care.

 

 

Fool me once shame on you....fool me twice shame on me. Pretending to care is how we got to where we are....

Edited April 30, 2015 by bytor2112

[Just_A_Guy]

Oh I don't know let's take a real world example . . . . .Portugal 15 years ago decriminalized drugs . . . boy they must all shoot up over there right?  It must be absolutely crazy, drugs everywhere.

 

Eh, not so much.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/07/05/ten-years-after-decriminalization-drug-abuse-down-by-half-in-portugal/

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/evaluating-drug-decriminalization-in-portugal-12-years-later-a-891060.html

http://mic.com/articles/110344/14-years-after-portugal-decriminalized-all-drugs-here-s-what-s-happening

That's an intriguing idea, but it's worth noting that per the Spiegel article they did not actually "decriminalize" possession; they just converted it to a misdemeanor rather than a felony and instituted a program that looks very much like a Utah "drug court" on steroids. (Okay, maybe an unfortunate choice of words . . ,)

FWIW, my anecdotal experience in Utah is that simple possession of marijuana cases are usually misdemeanors and rarely result in a jail sentence, EXCEPT where the defendant refuses to attend treatment or otherwise fails to comply with probation. Harder stuff--heroin, meth, crack--those cases usually do start as felonies, but my experience is that judges are usually pretty willing to avoid conviction via a plea in abeyance or diversion to drug court so long as the defendant goes to inpatient treatment; and if you get into the drug court your treatment will be state-funded. (If you live in UT, write to your legislators about drug court. It's a great program, and it really needs all the funding it can get.)

Utah has a very conservative bench, and even *our* judges tend to understand that not much "rehabilitation" really goes on in prison. The people you see incarcerated for possession charges--at least in Utah--are generally the ones who are too mentally ill, too damaged by these "harmless" substances, or just too contemptuous of authority to complete their treatment; and I imagine even Portugal would resort to incarceration for at least some of those folks.

I'd be very interested to know how Portugal treats drug dealers, though.

[unixknight]

Fool me once shame on you....fool me twice shame on me. Pretending to care is how we got to where we are....

 

That's right, but when your options are "Hey, we care about your plight" and "Hey slacker, just get a job and move away." I'm not prepared to pass judgement so easily.

 

Side note:  I agree that HuffPo is generally little more than left wing propaganda, but the problem is that sometimes they actually serve a purpose, which is to provide insight into how people on the left see things.  We conservatives suffer the same malady liberals do, namely, we have heavy confirmation bias and tend to be deaf to the point of view on the other side.  

 

I would suggest that the approach of simply dismissing someone's link because you don't like the domain name at the beginning of it is pretty insulting.  Do you like it when a liberal refuses a link of yours because it's from Fox news or Drudge?  

Edited April 30, 2015 by unixknight

[Just_A_Guy]

Will you concede that the Baltimore Police Department has mishandled this incident?

I think the police themselves have acknowledged that, at least insofar that certain key policies were not followed.

Will you concede that Freddie Gray probably died due to excessive force on the part of the arresting officers?*

(*I say probably because, to be fair, the investigation isn't over and we don't have all the facts yet.)

I don't know. I think the case law is clear that if someone runs from a cop, that is at least grounds for a Terry stop (though not an arrest) and, if the guy doesn't stop running, then he's committed the crime of failure to stop at a lawful command; so the cop is justified in bringing him to ground with a tackle. I never played football, but my understanding is that you can hurt someone pretty badly if you tackle them wrong; so the initial injury may be the result of simple negligence rather than outright brutality--especially if there aren't collateral injuries suggesting a beating.

But, to me, the whole thing isn't adding up. As far as I know--spinal cord injuries are not inherently lethal (they are, I think, excruciatingly painful, so I think this is particularly horrifying); so why is he dead?

Edited April 30, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[unixknight]

I think the police themselves have acknowledged that, at least insofar that certain key policies were not followed.

I don't know. I think the case law is clear that if someone runs from a cop, that is at least grounds for a Terry stop (though not an arrest) and, if the guy doesn't stop running, then he's committed the crime of failure to stop at a lawful command; so the cop is justified in bringing him to ground with a tackle. I never played football, but my understanding is that you can hurt someone pretty badly if you tackle them wrong; so the initial injury may be the result of simple negligence rather than outright brutality--especially if there aren't collateral injuries suggesting a beating.

But, to me, the whole thing isn't adding up. As far as I know--spinal cord injuries are not inherently lethal (they are, I think, excruciatingly painful, so I think this is particularly horrifying); so why is he dead?

 

Fair enough.

 

As for the injury... I'm not a doctor but as I understand it, if the injury was high enough to damage the nerves carrying signals to regulate respiration or heart function, it's easy to see how it can be fatal.  As I understand the preliminary medical reports, the damage was to his neck area.  But your question is a good one... why is he dead?  He was sufficiently healthy to run, and by the time he got out of that van he was fatally injured.  

 

The local government here has been testing the waters with spin saying Freddie hurt HIMSELF in the van.  To anyone who believes that:  I have some beachfront property in Nebraska to sell you if you're interested...

[bytor2112]

 

I would suggest that the approach of simply dismissing someone's link because you don't like the domain name at the beginning of it is pretty insulting.  Do you like it when a liberal refuses a link of yours because it's from Fox news or Drudge?  

 

Fair enough...I deleted the post. I think Drudge, which is just links to a lot of media links to Huff....

[Just_A_Guy]

The local government here has been testing the waters with spin saying Freddie hurt HIMSELF in the van. To anyone who believes that: I have some beachfront property in Nebraska to sell you if you're interested...

I dunno . . . People on drugs can do some surprising things . I'll wait for the medical and autopsy reports, and then maybe I'll trade you that beachfront property for my genuine Amazonian snowball. :)

Edited April 30, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[unixknight]

Fair enough...I deleted the post. I think Drudge, which is just links to a lot of media links to Huff....

 

Isn't Drudge a gathering point for Conservative articles?  (I just grabbed that as an example to make my point but maybe I sabotaged myself )

 

 

I dunno . . . People on drugs can do some surprising things . I'll wait for the medical and autopsy reports, and then maybe I'll trade you that beachfront property for my genuine Amazonian snowball. :)

 

Haha you're on!

[Guest MormonGator]

My nephew had the best perspective: "They better fix it soon. They are canceling baseball games!"
 

Edited April 30, 2015 by MormonGator