I Would Still Be Born Despite the Abortion

[Guest]

I see it much as good family relationships here but coupled with a glory we do not now enjoy.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, and I ask your indulgence of I am obtuse. But I would like to understand what you believe about the extent of the identities of the members of these good family relationships. What was your relationship like with the man and woman who are your parents here on Earth?  Were you and they identified to each other as future mortal parents and child?

[Guest]

I have a very musical family with kind of a crazy gift for singing together. I don't say that to be prideful, but to make a point...  because of this unusual ability to put together a professional-class choir in a very short amount of time, or to sit together for a sing-along with lots of different instruments and make really good music on the fly. My oldest brother has an idea that we used to sing together in Heaven. I don't know if there's any weight to that, but I know that it FEELS like we've been doing it forever, and I really like the idea. 

[james12]

I don't want to put words in your mouth, and I ask your indulgence of I am obtuse. But I would like to understand what you believe about the extent of the identities of the members of these good family relationships. What was your relationship like with the man and woman who are your parents here on Earth?  Were you and they identified to each other as future mortal parents and child?

I of course do not understand exactly what the relationship was like but I do consider it likely that my earthly father has long been my father in some form or fashion. Conversely, I consider it unlikely that Elohim was the direct father of my spirit or the direct father of billions and billions of other people. 

[Guest]

I of course do not understand exactly what the relationship was like but I do consider it likely that my earthly father has long been my father in some form or fashion. Conversely, I consider it unlikely that Elohim was the direct father of my spirit or the direct father of billions and billions of other people. 

I suppose I should take care to understand your meaning of the phrase direct father especially since you chose to italicize the word direct. Given that Church doctrine is that Elohim is the father of our spirits (unless I'm mistaken) I'm left rather puzzled by your statement. 

Edited September 20, 2015 by UT.starscoper

[james12]

I suppose I should take care to understand your meaning of the phrase direct father especially since you chose to italicize the word direct. Given that Church doctrine is that Elohim is the father of our spirits (unless I'm mistaken) I'm left rather puzzled by your statement. 

Yes, I agree with the doctrine. However, I can't help but think there is more to this mystery. How can Elohim be the Father of untold billions (trillions, more?) of people? 

[Guest]

If this thread was started by someone considering abortion - please read through the following links.  This is not something you want to justify doing.  You will live with regrets and forever have it hanging over your head.  Please do not do this.

Rest assured this thread was not started by someone considering abortion. I also responded to another post in this thread that I oppose abortion. It has nothing to do with rationalizing or justifying.

[james12]

We were not created or made (D&C 93:29), we were adopted (Romans 8:15). Jesus is the "only begotten", that is why he is so special.

Yes, D&C 93:29 is important to this point, and I also in some sense agree with the word adoption. 

The first presidency and quorum of the twelve in 1916 gave further clarity to the concept of life:

So also life is eternal, and not created; but life, or the vital force, may be infused into organized matter, though the details of the process have not been revealed unto man. (For illustrative instances see Gen. 2:7; Moses 3:7; Abr. 5:7.) (The Father and the Son, Doctrinal Exposition by the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve, Improvement Era Aug 1916)

Life, or vial force, infused into organized matter. 

[Guest]

Yes, I agree with the doctrine. However, I can't help but think there is more to this mystery. How can Elohim be the Father of untold billions (trillions, more?) of people? 

I don't have a problem, myself, with accepting that God can be the father of (any number) of spirits. Numbers, quantities, volume, etc. seem rather meaningless to me in the context of God's omnipotence and the contrast between time (here in mortality) and eternity. Remember, too, that I'm talking about God being the father of our spirit (bodies) as opposed to the way I think of myself being the earthly father of my children's physical bodies. 

[Guest]

I have a very musical family with kind of a crazy gift for singing together. I don't say that to be prideful, but to make a point... because of this unusual ability to put together a professional-class choir in a very short amount of time, or to sit together for a sing-along with lots of different instruments and make really good music on the fly. My oldest brother has an idea that we used to sing together in Heaven. I don't know if there's any weight to that, but I know that it FEELS like we've been doing it forever, and I really like the idea.

So let me ask you this. If I had been born into your family is it reasonable to suppose I would be also have inherited some degree of talent to enable me to better participate in your family musical experiences? And would the atmosphere or the general family interest in these performances have provided a whole different set of nurture-experiences which contribute to personality and opportunities for growth in directions different from those of the family I was actually born into?

[Guest]

...I believe that from the preexistence we had intellect, we had personality, we had the propensity to obey or disobey and that our intelligence had the capacity to grow and that these things were not created or made neither indeed could be. I believe that if we were put into any number of bodies, we would still be very similar to that basic “me” in many respects. ...

I think inherited biological traits, and various genetic combinations have a much more profound impact on personality than simply affecting visible characteristics like hair and eye-color. When combined with varying environmental influences such as family, culture, local events, etc. I think it is reasonable to suppose that the resulting personality could be very different. I think perhaps a more apt example would be a villain like Hitler. I think being born into a very different time and place would have given the baby very different experiences and the child would have grown in utterly different directions. Edited September 21, 2015 by UT.starscoper

[Traveler]

I am inclined to think that if we try to make sense of this life by looking only at what happens between birth (conception) and death - we will draw all kinds of wrong conclusions.  We are all eternal beings and this life is only a blip of who and what we really are.

 

I do not believe that anything just happens by chance or because of the agency of others.  Our experience here is the result of our agency.  If you believe in agency - this is the only possible conclusion.  If our experience is not the result of our agency then we do not have agency -- period!  The problem is when we compartmentalize our mortal experience and try to separate this from everything else that defines us as eternal beings.

 

I believe our mortal lives are known in the very finest detail by G-d our Father in heaven.  I believe that part of his great and wonderful gift of agency; he made know unto us every finest detail of our mortal experience.  We knew our lives before we exercised our agency to become mortals.  We volunteered for every problem we would face.  Each life was uniquely planned to provide for us our greatest needs and benefit - not just for ourselves but for the total experience of all.  I do not see this experience as just our experience but a wonderful tapestry that brings the experience of all to the best possible outcome.

 

With all that said - I also believe we can maximize or minimize our personal benefit as we pass through our intricately planned out in advance life.  This is all about what we do to ourselves (not others) as we pass through this experience.  What we do to others is mitigated through the atonement of Christ and they are set free from our actions and very intentions.  But for us to be set free we must do something to and for ourselves - and if we do there is nothing in this mortal experience that we do not desire that will have any binding application in the resurrection.

 

This I am inclined to think that any aborted human life was planned before we came to experience mortality.  The problem is not in the suffering or those innocent children as much as it is what we must do to ourselves to justify their suffering as well as the suffering of the innocent blood of Christ.  It is not even that important if we are the biological parents of the aborted child or some bystander giving advice and council or voting for a political candidate - It is what we do to our own hearts and souls concerning such things - it is all about what we do to ourselves even just to justify our opinions on the matter and justify how we treat others making their choices and exercising their agency. 

 

It is not about speculating of our past but what we are now, step by step becoming for our future.

Edited September 21, 2015 by Traveler

[Guest]

I am inclined to think that if we try to make sense of this life by looking only at what happens between birth (conception) and death - we will draw all kinds of wrong conclusions. We are all eternal beings and this life is only a blip of who and what we really are.

I do not believe that anything just happens by chance or because of the agency of others. Our experience here is the result of our agency. If you believe in agency - this is the only possible conclusion. If our experience is not the result of our agency then we do not have agency -- period! The problem is when we compartmentalize our mortal experience and try to separate this from everything else that defines us as eternal beings....

While I agree with you that looking at things with an eternal perspective is critical in our decision-making, I disagree with you on your opinions that nothing happens by chance, or because of the agency of others. Our agency has an impact on our experience and vice versa. And I perceive that it describes reality unrealistically to say that if our experience is not the result of our agency then we do have agency. As I read and re-read your belief it strikes me too much as predestination by abother name although I'm sure you don't see it that way. But I suppose we can both obey the commandments despite our differing perceptions. Edited September 21, 2015 by UT.starscoper

[lagarthaaz]

Just wondering what anyone thinks of eternal family bonds - for the millions of children born to in a mostly unplanned manner to unwed mothers and who may never even know who their biological father is. Or those who are born to evil predators devoid of real love for their children. Do you also believe that these children 'knew' their parents in pre-mortal life?

[Guest]

So let me ask you this. If I had been born into your family is it reasonable to suppose I would be also have inherited some degree of talent to enable me to better participate in your family musical experiences? And would the atmosphere or the general family interest in these performances have provided a whole different set of nurture-experiences which contribute to personality and opportunities for growth in directions different from those of the family I was actually born into?

 

Of course this is all speculation, so it's impossible to say but interesting to think about. My family is large. Only a few of us have professions that include our musical abilities. We also have a brilliant geophysicist, a few involved in various kinds of construction management, a professional artist, educators, and all of my sisters are successful business owners (after raising their children, which is awesome to me). A couple of my siblings aren't terribly interested in music as a hobby or anything else, though they do have the talent. They are the two that I would say are most successful in their careers. Nurture and nature have lent to success in all different areas, I think, but most of all in a family culture that values togetherness and cooperation, which certainly ties in with collaborative music. There are also a lot of studies about how music nurtures other parts of the brain, for instance in math, so I suppose a family culture that is heavily steeped in study and enjoyment of music would also encourage growth in other areas, wherever your talents lie. 

[pkstpaul]

Just wondering what anyone thinks of eternal family bonds - for the millions of children born to in a mostly unplanned manner to unwed mothers and who may never even know who their biological father is. Or those who are born to evil predators devoid of real love for their children. Do you also believe that these children 'knew' their parents in pre-mortal life?

I think the question speaks volumes about the power/value of the individual. So much about "eternal family" has to be answered with an eternal perspective. Will those spirits bond as a family in eternities? I think it has to do with the power of the individuals and if the individuals excel in life and after life. We are all in fact bound to the need for others to excel and we won't all excel in our mortal lives.

 

Great questions have been raised by the OP and responses. This has been a good thread.

[Guest]

Faramir and I have been talking a lot about agency, even in relation to prophecies. I don't suspect that it's ever in Heavenly Father's plan that any child is born to a teenage girl, or a crack addict. But an enormous part of this life is agency. Even if we had been given the choice or been able to plan or even be preordained to end up in a certain family, that can't be guaranteed because it would depend on the choices of a lot of people. However, it's been said a few times here lately that in the end, our family is really our spouse, and I still believe that there are for most of us a few people in the world that we can be very happy with. That part is within our agency. 

[Guest]

Just wondering what anyone thinks of eternal family bonds - for the millions of children born to in a mostly unplanned manner to unwed mothers and who may never even know who their biological father is. Or those who are born to evil predators devoid of real love for their children. Do you also believe that these children 'knew' their parents in pre-mortal life?

I sure do not believe it unless we say simply that every spirit was acquainted with every other spirit. I find it easier to reconcile existence in this place, where Satan reigns, via the principle that there is opposition in all things.

[Guest]

Faramir and I have been talking a lot about agency, even in relation to prophecies. I don't suspect that it's ever in Heavenly Father's plan that any child is born to a teenage girl, or a crack addict. But an enormous part of this life is agency. Even if we had been given the choice or been able to plan or even be preordained to end up in a certain family, that can't be guaranteed because it would depend on the choices of a lot of people. However, it's been said a few times here lately that in the end, our family is really our spouse, and I still believe that there are for most of us a few people in the world that we can be very happy with. That part is within our agency.

Gandalf and I have chatted about it, too, from time-to-time. He and I pretty much agree that I could likely have been very happy with at the very least a hundred different women. Interestingly, as an aside, a few of those I thought were perfect I have decided with hindsight would not have been good matches after all and I'm quite satisfied that I made a good choice. He mentioned that Spencer W. Kimball claimed that there is no such thing as a soul-mate in a literal sense or a one-and-only as I understand the term to apply in the context of many posts we've exchanged here. So my experiences seem to indicate to me personally that his advice was sound.

[Guest]

(Faramir is my husband, BTW. Not just a clever moniker I assigned him, but a registered lds.net user who has posted maybe once. :) )

[Traveler]

While I agree with you that looking at things with an eternal perspective is critical in our decision-making, I disagree with you on your opinions that nothing happens by chance, or because of the agency of others. Our agency has an impact on our experience and vice versa. And I perceive that it describes reality unrealistically to say that if our experience is not the result of our agency then we do have agency. As I read and re-read your belief it strikes me too much as predestination by abother name although I'm sure you don't see it that way. But I suppose we can both obey the commandments despite our differing perceptions.

I am always open to discussion and drilling down on why and how we believe as we do.  But when someone says that they believe in Agency - I have difficulty understanding how they think that chance happenstance or someone else determines or changes their individual outcome or eventual result.  If your condition, circumstance or place is not of your choice how can you argue that it is in any way related to your agency?

 

At any level of religious understanding - we understand we are a product of our experience - which includes our attitudes in our every adventure.  How can we argue agency if we do not walk the path of our own choice?  and experience what we choose to experience.  If this is determined for us to any degree how can we believe to have agency?

[Guest]

(Faramir is my husband, BTW. Not just a clever moniker I assigned him, but a registered lds.net user who has posted maybe once. :) )

I didn't doubt it for a moment. Alas, poor Boromir. :)

[Guest]

... I have difficulty understanding how they think that chance happenstance or someone else determines or changes their individual outcome or eventual result.  If your condition, circumstance or place is not of your choice how can you argue that it is in any way related to your agency?

 

... How can we argue agency if we do not walk the path of our own choice?  and experience what we choose to experience.  If this is determined for us to any degree how can we believe to have agency?

I think it is because no matter what happens we always have a choice on how to proceed. We may not always have freedom to walk away as in the example a chained slave--whether the chains be iron or fashioned through transgression or sin. Nevertheless, the slave retains his agency insofar as he may choose how to behave while he remains chained. Likewise, I may be constrained by ignorance as in the example of one who is unaware of the truth or by the consequences of my transgressions or sins. However, I retain my agency insofar as I may choose how to behave within the confines of the degree of knowledge I possess, and by virtue of the Gift of Repentance.  In other words, you ask how one may argue agency if one doesn't walk the path of one's own choice. I answer from the premise (which I think is the more sound) that one always walks the path of one's own choice. Perhaps you and I are arguing for the same side from different angles?

[Traveler]

The only reasonable argument I have been able to construct of agency must include an existence before birth.  An existence where we choose our birth circumstance.   The argument of free will verses determinism assumes that we make our choices only after we are born.  With this assumption the arguments for determinism are very difficult if not impossible to mitigate.  There appears to be so much that occurs that could not possibly be our choice.  But knowledge of a pre-existence changes all that.  Since there is differences at birth - it is argued that such circumstance could not possibly be our choice.  But if there was choice before this life - the difference at birth is easily explained as choices before we were born.

 

But many argue - why would anyone select difficult circumstance and handicap at birth.  But again we are judging all by this life alone and not taking into account what happens after death.  That what happens is not just choices in this life but are also dependent on choices before our birth.  The Book of Job would indicate that G-d knew us and honored our agency accordingly before we were born.

 

But why is the mitigation so important?  Because this understanding is not present in traditional Christianity. And because it is not present - so many other doctrines are left wanting in the balance of truth - so much so that thoughtful and intelligent believers are left without sure moorings and confusions concerning justice, and G-d loving mercy to wards all mankind.  Without pre-existence or life beyond death - nothing is just and we are hopelessly following a path not of our choosing an a destiny that can only be justified by luck and chance.

[Guest]

The only reasonable argument I have been able to construct of agency must include an existence before birth.  An existence where we choose our birth circumstance.   The argument of free will verses determinism assumes that we make our choices only after we are born.  With this assumption the arguments for determinism are very difficult if not impossible to mitigate.  There appears to be so much that occurs that could not possibly be our choice.  But knowledge of a pre-existence changes all that.  Since there is differences at birth - it is argued that such circumstance could not possibly be our choice.  But if there was choice before this life - the difference at birth is easily explained as choices before we were born....

Keep in mind that I also accept that I (and you) existed before birth. But I don't follow you on how it must be that we chose our birth circumstances. I don't discount making choices before birth--I accept that I chose to walk away from Lucifer's claims. And I accept that I knew in choosing our Heavenly Father's plan that I would have to endure experiences that I wouldn't like here on Earth. What I can't see being important is your position that I chose each experience beforehand. It seems unnecessary at best, and possibly too frightening at worst to be willing to go--if not on faith in Christ, which again makes choosing specifics unnecessary. Not only does it *appear* (as you said) but I perceive that it's an unarguable fact, a reality that so much occurs that isn't our choice. But that fact, that reality doesn't negate my agency in the least as far as I currently see. So I agree with you that we existed before this life, and it's a pleasant thing to be aware of. But beyond the big choice to follow Christ I don't perceive the need nor the likelihood of choices regarding parentage, times and locations of birth, etc. And in the end I ask myself what's the difference between a choice I don't remember making and not making any choice at all. The only answer I come up with is: there is no difference.

Edited September 22, 2015 by UT.starscoper

[Guest]

Faramir and I have been talking a lot about agency, even in relation to prophecies. I don't suspect that it's ever in Heavenly Father's plan that any child is born to a teenage girl, or a crack addict. But an enormous part of this life is agency. Even if we had been given the choice or been able to plan or even be preordained to end up in a certain family, that can't be guaranteed because it would depend on the choices of a lot of people. However, it's been said a few times here lately that in the end, our family is really our spouse, and I still believe that there are for most of us a few people in the world that we can be very happy with. That part is within our agency. 

It's nice to perceive that I'm in the company of people like yourself in that I think I pretty much see it the same way (except, hahaha, for the word "few"). :)

Edited September 22, 2015 by UT.starscoper