Elphaba's Experience With Stewardship

[Elphaba]

Note: This post was in Strawberry's thread called "Unrighteous Dominion." I soon realized it did not belong in that thread, and decided to put it in its own thread. I would like feed back to my post, but I also realize some of you may already have read it and have already replied. Thanks, Elphaba

------------------------

I have a story I've always wanted to tell, and have to a few people, but only a very few. There haven't been many people in my life who are receptive to it.

I grew up in Southern California. My childhood was horrifically abusive. However, in 1973, at 17 years old, I found myself on my own, living with some of the best people on the planet and attending a student branch in Cambridge, Massachusetts. It was a magical time in my life, partly because I discovered something about myself I had never known before: I was an intelligent person. Very intelligent. I honestly had never known that. Once I discovered this I was driven, and ravenous to learn.

Eventually I realized I wanted an education. I was Mormon and the obvious choice was BYU. So in the summer of 1975 I began my first semester. I stayed in Deseret Towers along with the other brand new freshman, and being 19, I was slightly older chronologically. However, emotionally I was light years ahead of these giggle pusses. They were constantly sniggering, uninterested in school, boy crazy, and obviously there for their "MRS" degree. They acted as if they were still in high school, and I couldn't relate to them at all.

I absolutely hated it.

I had come from Cambridge where my friends were Grethe Peterson, Claudia Bushman, Shann Jacobsen, etc., I was there when they had launched the Exponent II magazine. I had even made a very small contribution, and was incredulous to think I had come from such insanity to this wondrous world, and I was incredibly grateful to be a tiny part of it. These people loved to think, to discuss, to analyze, to share, and they loved me and I loved them back. Even more important, they valued me. It was heady stuff.

At BYU I felt as if I had been plunged into a bottomless lake of vapidness. I even asked to be moved to the section where the graduate students lived because I felt I had more in common with them, but the "house mother," or whatever she was called refused. Her cold-hearted manner was completely uncalled for, and I felt trapped. I knew I had to leave.

More importantly, I knew I had to go back to Cambridge where I could once again breath and think at the same time.

When I told my fanatically LDS mother (and she is beyond fanatical) that I was going back, she freaked out. She arranged for me to speak to the stake patriarch, and me being young enough to think I must obey, I went.

I'll never forget this meeting. I arrived, and his haughty superiority was palpable. He did not ask me anything about myself; rather, he immediately launched into insisting God had "prompted" him to tell me I should give up my aspirations of law school, that I was supposed to stay in Utah, that my husband and children were waiting for me, and that God's plan for me was to keep a home to take care of this phantom family. The more he talked, the more nauseated I felt.

When he finished telling me what "God" had told him, he curtly dismissed me as if I obviously had no say in the matter, and frankly I was glad. I wanted to ask him why God would want me to stay in Utah when I believed the Holy Ghost was so obviously telling me not to. At the same time I was shaking so bad I knew I couldn' talk to him.

Today, I would have talked to him.

Nevertheless, everything in my being told me I couldn't stay in Utah. So, I did go back to Cambridge, and to this day I feel I made the right decision. I was home, and I could breathe and think again, both at the same time.

But here's the unrighteous dominion part. While I was so glad to be back, I, of course, was extremely conflicted, and even a little terrified, that I had disobeyed God. So I went to my branch president and told him what had happened. He was livid!

He explained that I was not a member of this patriarch's stake, and therefore was not under his stewardship. He went on to explain that God would never have "prompted" him to give me any instructions whatsoever.

The bottom line: this man had abused his power as a patriarch!

If I had not followed my heart and gone back to Cambridge, he could have destroyed a significant part of my life that was obviously meant to be. What would have happened if I followed his instructions? I would have had a nervous breakdown. There is no doubt in my mind. That's how terrible that summer was for me.

I don't want anyone here to think this is why I lost my testimony. It is not.

As I look back on those days after I discovered what this patriarch had done, which were traumatic for me, I am astounded that I never heard from him, or anyone else from that stake, to apologize to me for his heinous and immoral behavior. I would have thought integrity and honesty would have warranted that, plus a desire to set things right with God, and I find that unrighteous.

Elphaba

[Moksha]

Since you started a new thread:

Many of us have felt trapped by the majority Mormons at one time or other. You and BYU were not a good fit. That is okay, because being a marginalized Mormon is in itself okay. The majority were giddy and you were serious, they wanted to play and you wanted to study. Perhaps you were like Jonathan Livingston Seagull among the mundane birds. Being a Cambridge Mormon is cool.

[Elphaba]

Being a Cambridge Mormon is cool.

Yes, it was, Moksha. It was magic!

I took to New England as if I had had a past life there. I could breathe in and smell the history, and it touched my soul. I miss it to this day.

Elphie

[rosie321]

Thanks Elphaba for sharing your story.

From what you said these thoughts really stood out in my mind.....

If I had not followed my heart and gone back to Cambridge, he could have destroyed a significant part of my life that was obviously meant to be. What would have happened if I followed his instructions? I would have had a nervous breakdown. There is no doubt in my mind

When he finished telling me what "God" had told him, he curtly dismissed me as if I obviously had no say in the matter, and frankly I was glad. I wanted to ask him why God would want me to stay in Utah when I believed the Holy Ghost was so obviously telling me not to. At the same time I was shaking so bad I knew I couldn' talk to him.

While our life circumstances are different,

this is where my major struggles come in with the church too. Doing God's will or man's?

Doing the right thing as I believe vs commiting a sin.

At times when unrighteous leadership is in place or you are getting a different spirit promptings going against priesthood authority, priesthood opinion, and the popular church opinion what is the right way to go.

Its particularly difficult when dealing with priesthood holders. While human these are supposed to be men whom God has chosen, placed over to guide, lead and be his representative here on earth. Then how can the answers be so different?

In your case even if you were dead wrong in your decision to go to Cambridge how can they ignore or dismiss your feelings and promptings and how that was shaping your opinion and making you feel? Why wouldn't they discuss that too you and clarify? Find out why you were choosing that path? (Guess it takes a woman :) ) The road they chose seemed to do the most damage.

Another struggle why are priesthood opinions even if not based in fact can be made to appear as such? Makes me wonder how many other people have been driven away by being directed in a path that was not for them. Or were driven away over trivial things.

In most other christian faiths there is no one between you and God/Christ/Spirit. You don't have to worry about what others think. Only what God places on your heart and that can be measured by scriptures. If you make a mistake its either you or God to blame. There is peace and purpose. It just seems confusing at times sticking someone in the middle. Someone who is not helping.

This all being said I really do respect church leaders and their dedication overall. They and their families have a tough job and the majority are doing it for sincere reasons. They love the Lord and seek to do His Will. But they are not perfect and can make big mistakes too. I worry about putting too much stock into leadings that may be more opinions presented as more and diminishing from the inward spirit leadings.

[Snow]

As I look back on those days after I discovered what this patriarch had done, which were traumatic for me, I am astounded that I never heard from him, or anyone else from that stake, to apologize to me for his heinous and immoral behavior. I would have thought integrity and honesty would have warranted that, plus a desire to set things right with God, and I find that unrighteous.

Elphaba

Egads woman. Grow a spine.

He said something that you did not agree with and you pretend that he is Charles Mason.

What on earth compells you types to ever play the victim?

[tiancum]

Egads woman. Grow a spin.

He said something that you did not agree with and you pretend that he is Charles Mason.

What on earth compells you types to ever play the victim?

Snow was this comment meant to offend or was it meant to edify?

Just trying to understand the purpose behind your statement. It seemed a bit brash and uncaring, did I misunderstand?

[Elphaba]

Egads woman. Grow a spin{sic}.

Since I am able to stand upright with no help, it's obvious I have a spin[e]. What makes you think otherwise?

He said something that you did not agree with and you pretend that he is Charles Mason.

Not quite. According to the man, God said something I did not agree with.

Additionally, if you go back and read my initial post you will not find any reference to Charles Manson. (Hint: Strawman arguments detract from your credibility.)

What on earth compells you types to ever play the victim?

Cowering and accepting a man's horrid behavior, and saying nothing was being a victim. Thinking I deserved an apology is not.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

In your case even if you were dead wrong in your decision to go to Cambridge how can they ignore or dismiss your feelings and promptings and how that was shaping your opinion and making you feel? Why wouldn't they discuss that too you and clarify? Find out why you were choosing that path? (Guess it takes a woman :) ) The road they chose seemed to do the most damage.

Hi Rosie,

I rarely think about this incident; after all, it was 32 years ago. But when I have, it's mostly at how callous he was towards me. I literally walked in, was told what God had told him about me, then shown the door. Today I find that strange.

And obviously, since I felt compelled to bring it up, it has stayed with me all this time. Keep in mind I was only 19, and still looked at a patriarch as if he was practically a god himself. The whole incident shook me badly.

This all being said I really do respect church leaders and their dedication overall. They and their families have a tough job and the majority are doing it for sincere reasons. They love the Lord and seek to do His Will. But they are not perfect and can make big mistakes too. I worry about putting too much stock into leadings that may be more opinions presented as more and diminishing from the inward spirit leadings.

I know many, many men in the Church who would never, ever treat anyone the way this man treated me (all in my family). I do know of other stories of ecclesiastical abuse, which is what happened in my case. And I do know of one man who is unfortunatley in a position for which he does not have the maturity required.

Otherwise, I have known, and been glad to know, many caring, generous and loving Mormon men who have offered me their friendship. When they discover I am an ex-Mormon, some of them step back, some do not.

I really do feel this patriarch was an aberration, given his extreme callousness.

Elphaba

Egads woman. Grow a spin.

He said something that you did not agree with and you pretend that he is Charles Mason.

What on earth compells you types to ever play the victim?

Snow was this comment meant to offend or was it meant to edify?

Just trying to understand the purpose behind your statement. It seemed a bit brash and uncaring, did I misunderstand?

Hi Tiancum,

Thank you for standing up for me. :)

Snow sees victims in the woodwork. Don't worry, it's okay. I can handle him. I'm not the cowering 19-year-old anymore.

I did read your post from the other thread, and appreciate your compassion for what was a very traumatizing experience.

Elphaba

[Good Days Last]

In life, there are so many paths we can choose and it's exactly that.

A choice.

I believe the LDS church to be the true church. And so do many others. I don't find it hard to believe that a church leader would say the things he did.

I tend to group the people of this church in two categories. "Utah Mormons" who haven't once stepped foot out of their comfort zone or the state of Utah in their lives and think that everything outside of Provo is of the world and evil.

Then there are the "Tolerant Mormons" as I categorize myself here. I too grew up in Southern California. I am currently living in Utah so I have seen things first hand. The more tolerant of our faith, usually outside of Utah, have a better understanding of other cultures and religions.

It seems the "Utah Mormons" have a starker vision of reality and follow "in all good intentions" what they think the Lord might want for us. But the only one that can truly know that is the Lord Himself. As someone else said, all of our leaders here on this earth are human. Just because they are called of God doesn't mean they are instantly "perfected" and everything they say is golden. God called them for a specific purpose, either to help and understand their congregations. Sometimes they're called to learn something for themselves.

In either case, I've heard stories about "power-crazy" leaders but I think they do it in the right heart, but not the right attitude. Writing with the right pencil but writing the wrong words in a sense.

And just because BYU is "The Lord's University" and is privately funded by the church, doesn't mean you MUST attend there or go to hell.

That's my two cents.

[Snow]

Egads woman. Grow a spin.

He said something that you did not agree with and you pretend that he is Charles Mason.

What on earth compells you types to ever play the victim?

Snow was this comment meant to offend or was it meant to edify?

Just trying to understand the purpose behind your statement. It seemed a bit brash and uncaring, did I misunderstand?

It's meant to show my disdain for:

1. People who pretend to be victims

2. People who use stupid modifiers like "heinous" and "immoral" to describe others who may or may not have made a mistake but are certainly serving out of the goodness of their hearts.

Snow sees victims in the woodwork. Don't worry, it's okay. I can handle him. I'm not the cowering 19-year-old anymore.

In the woodwork... right as if you aren't the drama queen playing it to the hilt.

The man said something you disagreed with and you say that you were traumatized. You know what I do and have always done when people say things I think are wrong? I certainly don't act as if I am a victim and they are Joseph Goebbels.

Is it difficult to sit or stand with no spine?

[Elphaba]

2. People who use stupid modifiers like "heinous" and "immoral" to describe others who may or may not have made a mistake but are certainly serving out of the goodness of their hearts.

I realize you didn't write this to me, but if you would indulge me for a moment I would really appreciate it.

You said that a man, telling a 19-year-old girl that God had prompted him to tell her what she should do when in fact God did no such thing is a mere "mistake"?

You really don't see anything immoral about this, whether he was serving out of the goodness of his heart or not?

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

In the woodwork... right as if you aren't the drama queen playing it to the hilt.

How so?

The man said something you disagreed with and you say that you were traumatized. You know what I do and have always done when people say things I think are wrong?

Once again, you demonstrate the fact you that you don't actually read what I wrote.

The man did not saying anything I disagreed with. God said something I disagreed with, via the man. Or at least, that's what I was lead to believe at the time.

Of course, it wasn't true. But I didn't know that at the time. And while today I would know better than to fall for that, at the time I was a 19-year-old believing Mormon who was taught that patriarchs were next to God, and had no reason to believe he would actually lie to me.

But he did lie to me, and in a heinous way. That is what was immoral.

I certainly don't act as if I am a victim and they are Joseph Goebbels

Nor should you, since Joseph Goebbels never did anything to you.

BTW, have you ever heard of Godwin's Law. You ought to look it up.

Is it difficult to sit or stand with no spine?

I don't know. I've never had to.

[Elphaba]

Just an FYI.

Godwin's Law:

"As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.” There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. However there is also a widely- recognized codicil that any intentional triggering of Godwin's Law in order to invoke its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful."

Many boards I have been on do not allow any comparisons involving Nazis. The person is automatically shut out of the thread.

I bring it up because it is a poor debating device. Whether one still chooses to uses it or not is obviously not my call.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

repeat post

[rosie321]

Elphaba-It's good that you were able to continue on and rise about the hurt you felt at the time-although you're current religious status in some LDS eyes might indicate otherwise .

What I liked about your comments is that it introduced a situation that makes people stop and think for themselves (and with spirit filled directon). Sometimes personal spirit leadings may be different then the priesthoods. Can there be cases where this might happen? Seeing that priesthood holders by nature are still human and lay people I would say that possibility exists. Also people are to weigh things out in our own mind I'm sure we are going to get opportunites to practice that. You felt strongly about it so it seems its something you needed to do.

If someone in the priesthood were to come strongly against something I felt inwardly true I'd defineately proceed with more caution and diligence if I went against what they said knowing they were in theory placed there by God.

It also a reminder priesthood that they must seek to follow the spirit and lead by understanding and guiding. Not by force or demand.

It really concerns me as I have known some who rely on the priesthood for their decisions and cannot think without it. Feeding into this thought is the constant talk to your bishop. Whenever anything happens go talk to the bishop. I have the sniffles today -go talk to the bishop and get a blessing. While it may be prudent to do so, at the same time you have to think for yourself and some things are not understood or may be able to be handled by him. Then there is the legalistics, a bishop has a very busy schedule most times and it can be difficult to get in. So pushing the dependence on priesthood for every little thing can be an issue.

While in most situations it is not the case, as others have pointed out the priesthood is not always right or may be talking to the church as a whole and not to individual situations. It seems like some people almost try and give their freedom to choose up to the priesthood rather then to think and operate for them self. They almost put a self imposed mediator or buffer between them and God. These are all issues to keep in check.

The man did not saying anything I disagreed with. God said something I disagreed with, via the man. Or at least, that's what I was lead to believe at the time.

We are told to ask in our heart if its true. But then we are supposed to trust in the man appointed by God to direct and lead us-much like Moses. The struggle is when you get two conflicting things. This man appointed by God to lead his church is supposed to be trusted and followed.

I can understand fully the struggle you present. I wish more could understand that this is an issue for some and not just apostates (or soon to be). If this was truly understood or addressed maybe there would be less.

[Elphaba]

Hi Rosie,

Your post and Good Days Last have actually given me a satifasction I wasn't excepting, and that is the dialogue discussing when and how this type of "ecclestical misapplication" can happen.

While in most situations it is not the case, as others have pointed out the priesthood is not always right or may be talking to the church as a whole and not to individual situations. It seems like some people almost try and give their freedom to choose up to the priesthood rather then to think and operate for them self. They almost put a self imposed mediator or buffer between them and God. These are all issues to keep in check.

This was very true for me, especially because I was raised in a family who is still very much like this, especially my mother.

Pardon my crudeness but if it's white, has male genitalia, and is Mormon, my mother just assumed it automatically knew more than she did. She continues to do so today, which is her business, not mine.

However, at 19 I thought she was right. This experience helped me to realize she was not.

Obviously, that's not me today. :)

And again, I am not saying, nor do I believe, the majority of Mormon men would do what this man did.

However, I do agree with Good Days Last that this is more of a Utah phenomenon. I don't have proof for this, just a sense of it from the men I have met here. If someone were to challenge me I would not take them up on it.

So thanks for your kind words, and I'm glad this helped you to think about how it would apply in your own life.

Elphaba

[rosie321]

This was very true for me, especially because I was raised in a family who is still very much like this, especially my mother.

Pardon my crudeness but if it's white, has male genitalia, and is Mormon, my mother just assumed it automatically knew more than she did. She continues to do so today, which is her business, not mine.

However, I do agree with Good Days Last that this is more of a Utah phenomenon

I would agree to a point on this. Could that be because of the inability to practice it as much due to lower number of priesthood holders in other areas? Utah is still seen as the center of the LDS universe because of the LDS concentration, the prophets living there and its history. So people still look to it as the center of wisdom and try to conform themselves in varying degrees to what the Utah mormons follow.

Also I think some of the problem comes in through changes in church history. Previously LDS had no choice but to stick together because of the persecution. More temporal organization and uniformity was required or demanded to withstand all the obstacles. Whereas now the church is in a different stage where we have more opportunities to express our faith in different ways without the heavy obstacles others faced..

Another reason that I think the priesthood is so heavily emphasized and relied upon is because that is the hallmark of the LDS church. It is one of the defining things of the church and so people want to value this important thing that God saw fit to restore. They want to use it and build up its importance

[Alaskagain]

Let me get this straight.

1. You went to the patriarch out of obedience or acquiescence to your mother's request.

2. You already had your decision made before you went to see him.

3. He indicated that God prompted him to say the things he said, and he said things that hurt your feelings.

4. You ignored his advice, and followed your own heart.

The point of the posting?

That he was exercising unrighteous dominion over you, and that you never received an apology.

It's been 32 years. He never had to apologize to you in order for you to forgive him.

[Elphaba]

I would agree to a point on this. Could that be because of the inability to practice it as much due to lower number of priesthood holders in other areas? Utah is still seen as the center of the LDS universe because of the LDS concentration, the prophets living there and its history. So people still look to it as the center of wisdom and try to conform themselves in varying degrees to what the Utah mormons follow.

Also I think some of the problem comes in through changes in church history. Previously LDS had no choice but to stick together because of the persecution. More temporal organization and uniformity was required or demanded to withstand all the obstacles. Whereas now the church is in a different stage where we have more opportunities to express our faith in different ways without the heavy obstacles others faced..

Another reason that I think the priesthood is so heavily emphasized and relied upon is because that is the hallmark of the LDS church. It is one of the defining things of the church and so people want to value this important thing that God saw fit to restore. They want to use it and build up its importance

I'm a bit nervous talking about my experience and and the men who hold the priesthood today in the same breath as if this is a widespread problem. I personally don't believe that, though I suspect these things do happen.

I believe it is fine, and proper, for the church to emphasize the priesthood. It is the hallmark of the church and its members should value it.

I'm a little concerned I'm going to be seen as someone who thinks the priesthood itself is somehow a bad thing, and that I think all men who hold it do so with little respect for others. That is far from what I believe.

Having said, that, I think all three of your scenarios have applications at one time or another. I've lived on both coasts, and in Utah. If I could choose, I'd be back on the east coast, and might even attend meetings, though I wouldn't join. Of course, they may kick me out if I didn't keep my mouth shut!

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

Let me get this straight.

3. He indicated that God prompted him to say the things he said, and he said things that hurt your feelings.

No, I did not say that.

What he said did not hurt my feelings at all. I don't know about you, but I don't start to shake and feel nauseous when my "feelings have been hurt."

What happened, which I think is pretty obvious, is that it scared the hell out of me! I was 19 years old and I HAD DEFIED GOD!

From that day until about a month later when my branch president assured me God would never have "prompted" this man to tell me anything, I was in constant turmoil and fear, because every fiber of my being knew I could not stay in Utah.

For all I knew if I left I was defying God. But if I stayed, I was living in hell. Every day I was sobbing, not knowing what to do. Finally, I decided I had to leave, and four days later I was in Cambridge.

However, once, there, every waking moment was filled with terror that God was angry with me, that I had ruined my life, that I was going to be punished, that I had given up my chances for a husband and family, that the things I wanted in my life were going to be denied me, by God, because I had defied him.

For weeks I did not sleep, eat or leave my apartment. Actually, it was my roomates who took me to the branch president. I would not tell them what was wrong because I did not want them to know that I had defied God. They would have condemned me! Or at least that was my thinking at the time.

Once my bishop set me straight, I was able to eat again. I did not, however, regain my ability to sleep, though I did sleep better. I realize what I experienced was a bout of PTSD, though not so severe I wasn't able to come out of within a couple of months. Like I said, the sleep thing never got a lot better.

Was I overreacting? Of course I was! I know that now. But when I was 19, just coming into the real world from a home filled with insane violence and a fanatic adherence to Mormonism, an overreaction is not that unexpected.

So, no, it wasn't just a matter of me getting my feelings hurt.

It's been 32 years. He never had to apologize to you in order for you to forgive him.

I never said he did.

I think I've also confused people. When I mention an apology, I mean that he should have apologized 32 years ago. That would have gone a long way in helping me to heal from the trauma that he personally caused me.

As far as forgiving him, I'm not sure I do. I don't think about it often, and it hasn't had any effect on my life since those few months, other than helping me wake up and see that things weren't always what I thought they were, and I see that as a good thing.

But I don't feel I'm under any obligation to forgive him, and frankly, when I think back on it, I don't.

And once this brouhaha that I've created with this thread is gone, I will forget about it once more.

The point of the posting?

Well, obviously because I had something I wanted to share. Why do you post?

Elphaba

[john doe]

I think it's telling that your parents obviously put the man up to it, and you place all the blame on the man, not the parents who manipulated him into 'counseling' you. Your parents should have known that your bishop, who had stewardship over you, was the one to go to, not a Stake Patriarch who has no stewardship over people in his stake other than performing Patriarchal blessings. I think he was duped into talking to you by your parents, who probably told him some kind of wild story to convince him to do so. Your parents were the freaks, the Patriarch was just a participant in their game. Now, if the Patriach had called you out of the blue and said he had received some revelation about your future, then you would have reason to hold a grudge against him for 32 years, but your story doesn't say that. You say your mother called him. Hold the grudge against her for being a poor parent who should have known better.

[Guest Yediyd]

Egads woman. Grow a spin.

What on earth compells you types to ever play the victim?

It's meant to show my disdain

Is it difficult to sit or stand with no spine?

Does speaking to others in this manner somehow make you feel better about yourself? I have seen you belittle and insult many time up here even though, as a mod...you are "supposed" to be here making sure that others do not do that. You, are not showing G-dly love, nor do you seem to give a hoot about the feelings of others when you say such mean and spiteful things. This is a glaring indicator of your character, and I feel sorry for you!!!

[rosie321]

I'm a bit nervous talking about my experience and and the men who hold the priesthood today in the same breath as if this is a widespread problem. I personally don't believe that, though I suspect these things do happen.

I agree. But for some the very acknowledgement that it is a possibility seems impossible. It must be a misunderstanding or you were doing something wrong.

Those who have experienced similar things need to be aware of its possibility so they don't feel like they are automatically wrong or apostate. If they start believing it inside then it can become reality. Instead they should then take what is being said to the Lord and seek clarification and strength to choose the right (even if it might mean going against the priesthood view). Seek the Lord for the final verdict though. color].

I believe it is fine, and proper, for the church to emphasize the priesthood. It is the hallmark of the church and its members should value it.

Agree. Its a bedrock of the church.

I'm a little concerned I'm going to be seen as someone who thinks the priesthood itself is somehow a bad thing, and that I think all men who hold it do so with little respect for others. That is far from what I believe.

I don't see it that way. Rather that it's important for people to put the priesthood in the proper context. At times it seems the pressure is on to either except what the priesthood holder says as gospel law or to be cast out if not in total agreement and obedience to what was said. Those are the choices many feel beholden to accept whether they feel led in another good direction or not. I think its important that areas inbetween have adequate consideration since that is where so many fall so many of the times on their personal roads.

From things I have witnessed it can appear wrong to admit where you are at if not in accordance to the priestholder views and can bring a kind of shunning. You must immediately conform or its a sign of an apostate heart. But if you're not honest with yourself how can you really better yourself? What effect is the priesthood really having on you? Also what effect are you having on the priesthood? Using your example (even though its done and over and you feel differently now) what if you hadn't been afraid to open your mouth? If you had felt the strength at that time to speak up maybe it would have at least given him something to consider? By keeping your mouth shut may have been an encouragement to him. You came out hurt. Its understandable why you didn't at the time because in your mind it would have been standing up to God and questioning Him. It would have taken much courage to do so.

That is my concern for others. That they might now that there are areas you might disagree. That yes God has placed priesthood authority there to lead, guide, and provide ordinances for the church as a whole. Not to take away our agency but to help to guide us in using it wisely and in accordance with Gods will. Ultimately as other great men of faith have done, we need to seek our ultimate strength and wisdom from the Lord. That communication line has never been taken from us despite the restoration of the priesthood. It is the source that trumps the priesthood. So if you find a discrepancy take it to the Lord for clarification and don't quit until you get it

Having said, that, I think all three of your scenarios have applications at one time or another. I've lived on both coasts, and in Utah. If I could choose, I'd be back on the east coast, and might even attend meetings, though I wouldn't join. Of course, they may kick me out if I didn't keep my mouth shut!

lol. Or maybe you'd be their mortal challenge and help keep things balanced:) ?

[Elphaba]

I think it's telling that your parents obviously put the man up to it, and you place all the blame on the man, not the parents who manipulated him into 'counseling' you. Your parents should have known that your bishop, who had stewardship over you, was the one to go to, not a Stake Patriarch who has no stewardship over people in his stake other than performing Patriarchal blessings. I think he was duped into talking to you by your parents, who probably told him some kind of wild story to convince him to do so. Your parents were the freaks, the Patriarch was just a participant in their game. Now, if the Patriach had called you out of the blue and said he had received some revelation about your future, then you would have reason to hold a grudge against him for 32 years, but your story doesn't say that. You say your mother called him. Hold the grudge against her for being a poor parent who should have known better.

My mother didn't know my branch president, because he was in Massachusetts. I was in Utah for the summer to go to BYU, but my records hadn't been forwarded yet. So when I returned to Cambridge, my records were still there.

Additionally, my mother could not have forced the patriarch to lie. Even if she did tell him some farcical story, it was still his decision to lie to me. Are you saying she told him to say God had talked to him about me? Even if that were true, his still had his agency, and could have, and should have, said no. Obviously, he made that choice to lie to me. Why are you so wont to let this man off for his sin?

Having said that, there is something to what you say, and I cannot really talk about it here. I can tell you my mother is a fanatic, and has never been one to care about her children as individuals with wants and desires of their own. She sees them in terms of fitting the Mormon mold or not, and if they're not, they're in the hands of Satan, literally. So, if you can look at her from a loving point of view (which I do not always do), she really was trying to save me. (I am being very generous right now. I rarely feel this way. But it is the truth.)

Also, my father had recently committed suicide. I only tell you his means of death to show you the insanity I came from. And it wasn't over because my mother was still there. That's where this 19 year old came from who walked into this patriarch's office and was told God had a message for her.

Elphaba

Added later: Regarding the grudge. I can understand why you readers think I hold a grudge, but I do not. It seems that way because I have discussed it so much on this thread. When Strawberry started a thread on "Unrighteous Dominion" it popped into my head, and since I've never had anyone to discuss it with, I thought I'd bring it here. But, honestly, I rarely think about it. And I promise, I do not hold a grudge.

[john doe]

Well, it's been over 30 years, perhaps you should try forgiveness and move on, realizing that your salvation is dependent on you, not others. This whole anger at others for what they may have said and done long ago only works for so long, then you need to get on with life.

Your Patriarch had an office? Lucky! My dad just used our living room for all his Patriarch duties. Patriarchs don't have offices in church buildings.