Evangelical with a question

[Tobeloved]

6 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

That's not how I read the Bible. We find this in John 4:1~3:

In Whose name did they baptize, if not in Jesus'?

Lehi

Actually, I forgot about that verse.  You are right Lehi, I stand corrected.  I have no problem admitting when I am wrong.

[Tobeloved]

6 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

That's not how I read the Bible. We find this in John 4:1~3:

In Whose name did they baptize, if not in Jesus'?

Lehi

Actually, I forgot about that verse.  You are right Lehi, I stand corrected.  I have no problem admitting when I am wrong.

[Tobeloved]

38 minutes ago, bytebear said:

But even with the "red phone" example, there is an authoritative hierarchy of who can use it.

But God does not give that.  That is man giving that authority, right?

[Tobeloved]

21 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Baptism does not save a person, but a saved person should be baptized.  As Christ Himself said: "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

Keeping God's commandments does not negate His sacrifice or the verses in Romans-- again, you're trying to set up a false dichotomy.  

How is that?  Lehi specifically asked "Is baptism salvilic

[LeSellers]

1 hour ago, Tobeloved said:

No baptism is not salvific.

I'll respond to each passage in turn. But you have missed one critical passage (1 Peter 3:18~22):

Quote

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which [the Spirit] also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.  21 The like figure [immersion in water] whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh [like a bath], but the answer of a good conscience toward God [because of repentance, one of the reasons for baptism],) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

I'd be happy to supply alternative translations if the Authorized Version (aka King James Version) is not to your liking.

1 hour ago, Tobeloved said:

Romans 5

1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we^b boast in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Please recall that Paul was writing to people who had already been baptized. This piece seems to escape many who try understanding this passage. With their baptisms already faits accomplis, these words take on a different meaning than what you read into them.

First, baptism requires faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. It is not effective without it, and it must also be coupled with repentance. Each of your emphases is only true for those who have repented and received baptism. Thus, as Peter wrote: baptism doth now also save us.

1 hour ago, Tobeloved said:

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This simply does not apply. Again, the Roman Saints had been baptized, but Paul is now explaining how the Atonement applies to them. This does not say anything about whether baptism is salvific.

1 hour ago, Tobeloved said:

Romans 6

1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,^a that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

Baptism is a symbol of death (of the old, sinful man) and birth (of the new man in Christ). Again, there is nothing here that rejects the salvific effect of baptism. Peter's statement remains valid: baptism doth now also save us.

1 hour ago, Tobeloved said:

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You have been set free from sin (through your prior baptisms). Baptism doth now also save us.

Nothing in Romans, nor in any of Paul's writings, says anything that should lead anyone to reject baptism as salvific. And Peter explicitly says it is.

Who am I to believe? A reformed who invented this non-salvific baptism in the XVI or the prophet of God who was chosen by Jesus Christ to preach His Gospel, Zwingli or Peter?

We could post dozens of scriptures that show that baptism is necessary to salvation, that it washes away our sins, makes us eligible for salvation, and is, as it is obvious that I believe, baptism doth now also save us.

Lehi

Edited April 23, 2016 by LeSellers

[LeSellers]

Dup

Lehi

Edited April 23, 2016 by LeSellers

[LeSellers]

34 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

But God does not give that.  That is man giving that authority, right?

God does give that. That's the whole point of the Restoration, as opposed to a Reformation.

On 15 May 1829, John the Baptist (acting under the authority of Peter, James, and John) appeared to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery and conferred on them the Priesthood of God which has the keys of baptism by water. Within a few weeks, those ancient Apostles also appeared to the same two men, and conferred the higher Priesthood which has the keys of the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Man does not give that authority, God does, just as we read in Hebrews 5:4~5:

Quote

4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.  5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

Not even Christ took that honor. God gives it. And He gives it by a prophet (Moses, in the case of Aaron, Thomas S. Monson today).

Lehi

[LeSellers]

Dup

Lehi

Edited April 23, 2016 by LeSellers

[LeSellers]

Dup

Lehi

Edited April 23, 2016 by LeSellers

[Tobeloved]

14 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

But you have missed one critical passage (1 Peter 3:18~22):

Lehi

I hope this loaded right.  The one thing I question the meaning of is the word "the demand" I think it may mean appeal.

eperōtēma

ἐπερώτημα

[Tobeloved]

14 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

But you have missed one critical passage (1 Peter 3:18~22):

Lehi

I hope this loaded right.  The one thing I question the meaning of is the word "the demand" I think it may mean appeal.

eperōtēma

ἐπερώτημα

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Tobeloved said:

I disagree, because I was very specific in how I asked the question.  Please see the OP again.

Yes, you were.  It was specifically designed to give you the specific answer you expected so you could give a pre-designed specific objection to it based on specifically preconceived notions.  That is exactly what I meant by "narrow box".

Instead, the more appropriate, open, and honest question (based on subsequent conversation) would be:

• Since Jesus Christ is the only path to Salvation, why are baptism, temple work, church organization, and so forth so important in your faith?

Then the response would have been close to what I was getting at with my questions which you are still refusing to answer, as well as many other posts.  You've quoted virtually every other post.  You even quoted that particular post.  But you refused to answer it when you did so.  Now you're asking me to repeat myself.

You've received many answers to many of your questions. But you specifically don't answer several questions -- not just mine, but many.  Why?

Edited April 23, 2016 by Guest

[estradling75]

@Tobeloved It seems you are either willfully twisting what we say.  Or you are so full of your preconceived notions wrong notions of what we believe that your own bias are working so you can't see what we are really saying.  Either way,  knock it off and pay attention to what we 'really' say.

To help you with this I present two scriptures that Mormons believe absolutely 100 percent true as plainly written in the bible

Both are the direct words of Christ

John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

and

John 14:15  If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Everything LDS do and believe are centered around this.  Take this and apply it to all conclusion you reach about  Mormons from your discussions.  If you "think" that  Mormon's depend on anything else realize you are flat out wrong and re-think.

 

Now it is clear you don't agree with us what commandments Christ has given us and that is fine.  It is why you are Evangelical and we are Mormons, but don't let such a bias distract you from the fact that Mormon totally believe Christ the way the truth and the life.

 

 

[Tobeloved]

11 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Yes, you were.  It was specifically designed to give you the specific answer you expected so you could give a pre-designed specific objection to it based on specifically preconceived notions.  That is exactly what I meant by "narrow box".

Instead, the more appropriate, open, and honest question (based on subsequent conversation) would be:

• Since Jesus Christ is the only path to Salvation, why are baptism, temple work, church organization, and so forth so important in your faith?

Then the response would have been close to what I was getting at with my questions which you are still refusing to answer, as well as many other posts.  You've quoted virtually every other post.  You even quoted that particular post.  But you refused to answer it when you did so.  Now you're asking me to repeat myself.

You've received many answers to many of your questions. But you specifically don't answer several questions -- not just mine, but many.  Why?

Well actually I'm on vacation, I had a work emergency so I went in this afternoon and I have been having so many problems with this website that I almost gave up on it.

I also had trouble with quoting and replying which I'm surprised you didn't see from my many 2 or 3 time duplicates, but OK, I'll go back and answer all of them.  It doesn't bother me if there are duplicates and I did take your advice to cut and paste, but now it seems to be an issue.  So I will go back to page 1 again and follow through.

With all due respect, I don't see why you are criticizing me for my question.  I did ask and I thought that I put thought into the wording and gave people the opportunity to post a reply.  I do not see why I am being picked on, this is my first post here and maybe I should not be here at all.  I didn't hide anything, so I do not get it.

[Tobeloved]

On 4/20/2016 at 2:19 PM, anatess2 said:

The simple answer is - no.

Everybody - living or dead - have to accept the Covenant of Baptism.

Those who accept it on earth doesn't have to have the rite performed at the temple.  But then once you accept it on earth, then much has been given to which much is required... which eventually gets you to the point of receiving your endowments at the temple.

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond. It is appreciated.

[LeSellers]

32 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

I hope this loaded right.  The one thing I question the meaning of is the word "the demand" I think it may mean appeal.

eperōtēma

ἐπερώτημα

 

Please unpack this a little. The AV gives "answer", just as your sources might require.

Here are some of the translations in my library (1 Peter 3:21):

Quote

(ASV)  which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;

(AV)  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

(BBE)  And baptism, of which this is an image, now gives you salvation, not by washing clean the flesh, but by making you free from the sense of sin before God, through the coming again of Jesus Christ from the dead;

(Bishops)  To the which also the figure agreeth that nowe saueth vs, euen baptisme, not the puttyng away of the fylth of the fleshe, but in that a good conscience maketh request to God, by the resurrection of Iesus Christe:

(CEV)  Those flood waters were like baptism that now saves you. But baptism is more than just washing your body. It means turning to God with a clear conscience, because Jesus Christ was raised from death.

(Darby)  which figure also now saves you, even baptism, not a putting away of the filth of flesh, but the demand as before God of a good conscience, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

(DRB)  Whereunto baptism, being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but, the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

(EMTV)  which as an antitype, baptism now also saves us--(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

(ERV)  And that water is like baptism, which now saves you. Baptism is not the washing of dirt from the body. It is asking God for a clean conscience. It saves you because Jesus Christ was raised from death.

(ESV)  Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

(FDB)  or cet antitype vous sauve aussi maintenant, c'est-à-dire le baptême, non le dépouillement de la saleté de la chair, mais la demande à Dieu d'une bonne conscience, par la résurrection de Jésus Christ,

(FLS)  Cette eau était une figure du baptême, qui n'est pas la purification des souillures du corps, mais l'engagement d'une bonne conscience envers Dieu, et qui maintenant vous sauve, vous aussi, par la résurrection de Jésus Christ,

(Geneva)  Whereof the baptisme that nowe is, answering that figure, (which is not a putting away of the filth of the flesh, but a confident demaunding which a good conscience maketh to God) saueth vs also by the resurrection of Iesus Christ,

(INR)  Quest'acqua era figura del battesimo (che non è eliminazione di sporcizia dal corpo, ma la richiesta di una buona coscienza verso Dio). Esso ora salva anche voi, mediante la risurrezione di Gesù Cristo,

(IRL)  Alla qual figura corrisponde il battesimo (non il nettamento delle sozzure della carne ma la richiesta di una buona coscienza fatta a Dio), il quale ora salva anche voi, mediante la risurrezione di Gesù Cristo,

(ISV)  Baptism, which is symbolized by that water, now saves you also, not by removing dirt from the body, but by asking God for a clear conscience based on the resurrection of Jesus, the Messiah,

(JUB)  Unto the figure of which the baptism that does now correspond saves us (not taking away the uncleanness of the flesh, but giving testimony of a good conscience before God) by the resurrection of Jesus, the Christ,

(LBLA)  Y correspondiendo a esto, el bautismo ahora os salva (no quitando la suciedad de la carne, sino como una petición a Dios de una buena conciencia) mediante la resurrección de Jesucristo,

(LEB)  And also, corresponding to this, baptism now saves you, not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

(LITV)  Which antitype now also saves us, baptism (not a putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;

(Murdock)  And ye also, by a like figure, are made alive by baptism, (not when ye wash your bodies from filth, but when ye confess God with a pure conscience,) and by the resurrection of Jesus the Messiah;

(RV)  which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;

(SSE)  A la figura de la cual el bautismo que ahora corresponde nos salva (no quitando las inmundicias de la carne, mas dando testimonio de una buena conciencia delante de Dios,) por la resurrección de Jesús, el Cristo,

(TLV)  Corresponding to that, immersion now brings you to safety—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but a pledge to God of a good conscience—through the resurrection of Messiah Yeshua.

(Vulgate)  quod et vos nunc similis formae salvos facit baptisma non carnis depositio sordium sed conscientiae bonae interrogatio in Deum per resurrectionem Iesu Christi

(WEBA)  This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you—not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

(Webster)  The like figure to which, even baptism, doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience towards God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

(WNT)  And, corresponding to that figure, the water of baptism now saves you--not the washing off of material defilement, but the craving of a good conscience after God--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

(YLT)  also to which an antitype doth now save us--baptism, (not a putting away of the filth of flesh, but the question of a good conscience in regard to God,) through the rising again of Jesus Christ,

 

Not all of these use "appeal", but they all say baptism doth  now also save us. It's there in English, Latin, Spanish, French, and Italian. I can show you in Greek, or German, Norwegian, and a couple of other languages I do not speak, but that might be overkill.

Again, what were you trying to get to?

Lehi

 

Edited April 23, 2016 by LeSellers

[Tobeloved]

On 4/20/2016 at 2:19 PM, anatess2 said:

The simple answer is - no.

Everybody - living or dead - have to accept the Covenant of Baptism.

Those who accept it on earth doesn't have to have the rite performed at the temple.  But then once you accept it on earth, then much has been given to which much is required... which eventually gets you to the point of receiving your endowments at the temple.

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond. It is appreciated.

[LeSellers]

Dup

Lehi

 

Edited April 23, 2016 by LeSellers

[Tobeloved]

17 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

@Tobeloved It seems you are either willfully twisting what we say.  Or you are so full of your preconceived notions wrong notions of what we believe that your own bias are working so you can't see what we are really saying.  Either way,  knock it off and pay attention to what we 'really' say.

To help you with this I present two scriptures that Mormons believe absolutely 100 percent true as plainly written in the bible

Both are the direct words of Christ

John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

and

John 14:15  If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Everything LDS do and believe are centered around this.  Take this and apply it to all conclusion you reach about  Mormons from your discussions.  If you "think" that  Mormon's depend on anything else realize you are flat out wrong and re-think.

 

Now it is clear you don't agree with us what commandments Christ has given us and that is fine.  It is why you are Evangelical and we are Mormons, but don't let such a bias distract you from the fact that Mormon totally believe Christ the way the truth and the life.

 

 

I'm sorry I offending you and you see my asking as willfully twisting.  It would be much easier to get the information from somewhere else, but I thought I would ask and let real people answer.  It seems like a mistake, so I will take my answers and leave you all to your forum.  Thanks.

[Tobeloved]

17 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

@Tobeloved It seems you are either willfully twisting what we say.  Or you are so full of your preconceived notions wrong notions of what we believe that your own bias are working so you can't see what we are really saying.  Either way,  knock it off and pay attention to what we 'really' say.

To help you with this I present two scriptures that Mormons believe absolutely 100 percent true as plainly written in the bible

Both are the direct words of Christ

John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

and

John 14:15  If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Everything LDS do and believe are centered around this.  Take this and apply it to all conclusion you reach about  Mormons from your discussions.  If you "think" that  Mormon's depend on anything else realize you are flat out wrong and re-think.

 

Now it is clear you don't agree with us what commandments Christ has given us and that is fine.  It is why you are Evangelical and we are Mormons, but don't let such a bias distract you from the fact that Mormon totally believe Christ the way the truth and the life.

 

 

I'm sorry I offending you and you see my asking as willfully twisting.  It would be much easier to get the information from somewhere else, but I thought I would ask and let real people answer.  It seems like a mistake, so I will take my answers and leave you all to your forum.  Thanks.

 

 

[estradling75]

Just now, Tobeloved said:

I'm sorry I offending you and you see my asking as willfully twisting.  It would be much easier to get the information from somewhere else, but I thought I would ask and let real people answer.  It seems like a mistake, so I will take my answers and leave you all to your forum.  Thanks.

That would be more believable if you showed you were "listening" to us... 

[Tobeloved]

1 minute ago, estradling75 said:

That would be more believable if you showed you were "listening" to us... 

I'm getting killed for not answering, not listening, not being able to login, duplicating posts.

Thank you again.  Bye.

[LeSellers]

56 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

I'm sorry I offending you and you see my asking as willfully twisting.  It would be much easier to get the information from somewhere else, but I thought I would ask and let real people answer.  It seems like a mistake, so I will take my answers and leave you all to your forum.  Thanks.

I hope you will reconsider your choice to leave.

It has been helpful to me to go back through my notes and "resurrect" the train of thought that supports our position on all three topics: the need for a formal church, the requirement of Priesthood, and the necessity of baptism.

Lehi

Edited April 23, 2016 by LeSellers

[LeSellers]

Dup

Lehi

Edited April 23, 2016 by LeSellers

[Tobeloved]

11 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

Please unpack this a little. The AV gives "answer", just as your sources might require.

Here are some of the translations in my library (1 Peter 3:21):

Not all of these use "appeal", but they all say baptism doth  now also save us. It's there in English, Latin, Spanish, French, and Italian. I can show you in Greek, or German, Norwegian, and a couple of other languages I do not speak, but that might be overkill.

Again, what were you trying to get to?

Lehi

 

I posted the Greek and I was looking at the words "in demand" which I think is in good conscience.  I do not need all those other languages.